shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 18, 2016 21:32:21 GMT -5
By the way Shaxper, When did we switch Dr. Fates? I think it was Millennium #1. I know the switch happens by the time JLI #10 comes out. I believe it happened in Dr. Fate (vol. 1) #1, which was published in July of '87, six months prior to Millennium, but no mention of the change was ever made in either the pages of Justice League nor in Millennium. For all intents and purposes, this is the same Dr. Fate. However, Dr. Fate #1 coincided with Justice League #3, which was the point at which Dr. Fate suddenly stopped showing up so much. This may have been Giffen and DeMatteis' reason for keeping him away from the team as much as they did. Captain Marvel was already playing the part of the kid stuck in an adult's body; the new Dr. Fate would have been redundant. |
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Post by tingramretro on Jan 19, 2016 1:37:57 GMT -5
I'm not trying to be rude here and I did not buy JLI during this time frame and looking at examples of artwork that Shaxper puts together is downright bad. I just can't believe the colors, the sloppy pencils, and so forth. I'm not trying to be negative but I wouldn't buy it back then and either today too. I like the art. I think you're confusing an objective judgement of quality with personal taste. |
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Post by tingramretro on Jan 19, 2016 1:51:59 GMT -5
By the way Shaxper, When did we switch Dr. Fates? I think it was Millennium #1. I know the switch happens by the time JLI #10 comes out. I believe it happened in Dr. Fate (vol. 1) #1, which was published in July of '87, six months prior to Millennium, but no mention of the change was ever made in either the pages of Justice League nor in Millennium. For all intents and purposes, this is the same Dr. Fate. However, Dr. Fate #1 coincided with Justice League #3, which was the point at which Dr. Fate suddenly stopped showing up so much. This may have been Giffen and DeMatteis' reason for keeping him away from the team as much as they did. Captain Marvel was already playing the part of the kid stuck in an adult's body; the new Dr. Fate would have been redundant. It's a bit confused, as every appearance of Fate in JLI up to and including Millennium, plus his appearances as a member of the team in Booster Gold and Blue Beetle, are clearly intended to be the original, despite events in his own book. I think the only explanation that makes sense is that all these stories take place before the events in Doctor Fate. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 19, 2016 8:07:29 GMT -5
I think the character in the lower right next to Mr. Miracle in that panel you asked about is supposed to be Oberon, but not positive. -M ..which makes no sense since Oberon is essential the JLI's Jarvis. I agree that's who it is supposed to be though. IIRC, the Rocket Red thing does end up making sense, so hang in there  |
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,868
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Post by shaxper on Jan 19, 2016 9:01:04 GMT -5
I believe it happened in Dr. Fate (vol. 1) #1, which was published in July of '87, six months prior to Millennium, but no mention of the change was ever made in either the pages of Justice League nor in Millennium. For all intents and purposes, this is the same Dr. Fate. However, Dr. Fate #1 coincided with Justice League #3, which was the point at which Dr. Fate suddenly stopped showing up so much. This may have been Giffen and DeMatteis' reason for keeping him away from the team as much as they did. Captain Marvel was already playing the part of the kid stuck in an adult's body; the new Dr. Fate would have been redundant. It's a bit confused, as every appearance of Fate in JLI up to and including Millennium, plus his appearances as a member of the team in Booster Gold and Blue Beetle, are clearly intended to be the original, despite events in his own book. I think the only explanation that makes sense is that all these stories take place before the events in Doctor Fate. That definitely wasn't Eric in the Gray Man storyline. Perhaps he surrendered his consciousness to Nabu? |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 19, 2016 9:05:46 GMT -5
I had the entire JLA and JLI runs and sold them a few years back. It wasn't my cup of tea, but I like your love for this series.
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Post by tingramretro on Jan 19, 2016 10:36:22 GMT -5
It's a bit confused, as every appearance of Fate in JLI up to and including Millennium, plus his appearances as a member of the team in Booster Gold and Blue Beetle, are clearly intended to be the original, despite events in his own book. I think the only explanation that makes sense is that all these stories take place before the events in Doctor Fate. That definitely wasn't Eric in the Gray Man storyline. Perhaps he surrendered his consciousness to Nabu? I think it was intended to be Kent Nelson. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 19, 2016 12:37:38 GMT -5
That definitely wasn't Eric in the Gray Man storyline. Perhaps he surrendered his consciousness to Nabu? I think it was intended to be Kent Nelson. That's certainly the default possibility. I'm just trying to figure if there's any better way to reconcile the two continuities. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Jan 19, 2016 12:48:06 GMT -5
You must love Bendis.  Late to the party as always, but I just binged this thread from the beginning and caught up! It's inspired me to dig out my old JLI issues. I think I'll have them custom bound, considering DC dropped the ball on the trades... Oh, and Joe Staton's work sucks in general... No, it really doesn't. I must strongly agree with Reptisaurus here. As someone who has read and enjoyed a lot of Joe Staton's work. |
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Post by tingramretro on Jan 19, 2016 13:29:44 GMT -5
I must strongly agree with Reptisaurus here. As someone who has read and enjoyed a lot of Joe Staton's work. I really enjoyed his work on Huntress. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Jan 19, 2016 13:39:57 GMT -5
Here's Joe Staton inking Sal Buscema in a 1970s Hulk comic:  |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 19, 2016 20:31:19 GMT -5
Millennium #3  "Back" writer: Steve Englehart layouts: Joe Staton finishes: Ian Gibson letters: Bob Lappan colors: Carl Gafford editor: Andy Helfer As much as Millennium utterly sucks, it's beginning to occur to me that, if you had a serious addiction to a favorite character or franchise, it must have been nice to be able to see them in action every week with Millennium. At least in the instance of the Justice League, they get a lot of quality time in this issue and were featured pretty prominently in the past two as well. And, as with last issue, Englehart and Staton get some stuff wrong. For example, they still haven't gotten the memo that Dr. Fate quit the team two months ago:  And yet, they get a lot right too. That same scene, in which the JLI is making a statement to the press on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial, struck me as odd and ill-fitting for the team at first, but Englehart is right. The idea for the team was always supposed to be that they were professionals who could look good in front of a camera, but were ordinary people behind closed doors (sometimes too ordinary). It's nice to be reminded that they have a public persona here; makes it easier to understand why the international community is backing these clowns. But maybe Englehart gives them too much credit. After all, he probably didn't realize when he wrote the scene depicted below that he was portraying the very first time members of the JLI actually effectively fought together:  Each uses his strengths well in this circumstance, fighting as a well honed unit. The only time they've even come close to doing that before was when Booster came up with his plan for taking down The Royal Flush Gang's android back in Justice League #4. This is solid, competent superhero work -- hardly what we normally see in the pages of JLI. Englehart does deliver two other important JLI-related details in this issue: One is reconciling Batman being a member of two super-teams at the same time. This was finally acknowledged in Millennium #1, and it now gets reconciled pretty easily:  Sure, the decision was actually made in the pages of The Outsiders, but here's where JLI fans would read it first. I guess Batman isn't going part-time with The League, after all? Or perhaps he's cutting back his commitments to both teams so that he can get back to Gotham and act in-character every now and then. I doubt his solemn oath to his parents included anything about globe-trotting with super-hero teams. The other important detail is this significant reveal that I'm sure will become important in the pages of JLI:  Not too surprising, considering how suspicious it was that the United States government insisted on Captain Atom's appointment even though it's a team of heroes who have always been primarily active in the United States, but this will inevitably be a big deal when it gets revealed, and it's strongly hinted earlier in this issue that Atom, himself, will be the one to confess it out of guilt. So yeah, that's a whole lot of JLI in the pages of a company-wide event. For the first time, I don't feel it was a horrific mistake to include Millennium in this review thread  |
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Post by spoon on Jan 19, 2016 22:24:10 GMT -5
Millennium #3 "Back" writer: Steve Englehart layouts: Joe Staton finishes: Ian Gibson letters: Bob Lappan colors: Carl Gafford editor: Andy Helfer As much as Millennium utterly sucks, it's beginning to occur to me that, if you had a serious addiction to a favorite character or franchise, it must have been nice to be able to see them in action every week with Millennium. At least in the instance of the Justice League, they get a lot of quality time in this issue and were featured pretty prominently in the past two as well. And, as with last issue, Englehart and Staton get some stuff wrong. For example, they still haven't gotten the memo that Dr. Fate quit the team two months ago:  [snip] Each uses his strengths well in this circumstance, fighting as a well honed unit. The only time they've even come close to doing that before was when Booster came up with his plan for taking down The Royal Flush Gang's android back in Justice League #4. This is solid, competent superhero work -- hardly what we normally see in the pages of JLI. Sure, the decision was actually made in the pages of The Outsiders, but here's where JLI fans would read it first. I guess Batman isn't going part-time with The League, after all? Or perhaps he's cutting back his commitments to both teams so that he can get back to Gotham and act in-character every now and then. I doubt his solemn oath to his parents included anything about globe-trotting with super-hero teams. [snip] I don't know if Englehart and Staton deserve the blame for portraying Dr. Fate as still a member of the team. I would think that editorial would make sure that the creative team of a crossover knows the situation in each of the tie-in books. The creators can't just go with what's happening in JLI at the time they're writing & drawing the Millennium. They need to know where JLI will be when Millennium is published. There was probably even longer lead time between writing and publication, because Millennium had 4 issues per month. Helfer was editing both JLI and Millennium (and I think GLC as well), so he should be informing them. At the time the early issues of Millennium were actually written, Dr. Fate may have still been on the team. I wonder if the plans for Dr. Fate on JLI changed. I interpreted Batman's remarks from JLI #7 differently. He talked about stepping back from the top spot. To me, that just sounded like resigning from leadership. It seems like a weird thing to do, though, since it shouldn't save much time. |
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fred2
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Post by fred2 on Jan 19, 2016 23:14:06 GMT -5
I always liked the first 20 issues of Justice League. Did not know the Millennium stories and that explains a lot between issues #9 and #10.
Kevin Macguire's art was very good, but I stopped reading after he left.
Issues 11-20 really start to fall apart in my opinion. Partly due to the lack of Kevin's art. The Lobo story is very good. It basically brought Lobo into the post crisis era with a bang and also returned Guy Gardner to his more familiar personality.
However there are a lot of plot lines that seem to be unfinished. (ie, Queen Bee storyline).
Good luck on reviewing these.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 20, 2016 5:46:00 GMT -5
I interpreted Batman's remarks from JLI #7 differently. He talked about stepping back from the top spot. To me, that just sounded like resigning from leadership. It seems like a weird thing to do, though, since it shouldn't save much time. The stated logic was that he wanted to keep a lower profile, not save time. I've just commented on the time aspect because, if he was running with two super teams at the time, that didn't leave much room for crime fighting in Gotham, nor working with his ward. But again, as with Dr. Fate, editorial was largely asleep at the wheel with what characters were doing across titles and offices. |
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