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Post by Action Ace on Jan 1, 2016 21:28:29 GMT -5
I wish I'd been smart enough and mature enough to understand that at the time. I'd probably have appreciated it. As it was, though, I was mostly just laughing at the jokes and really enjoying Guy Gardner, while totally failing to get the subtext. And yet somehow, living on a knife edge though we sometimes seemed to be, I miss the 1980s. Life seemed simpler then, and the music was a lot better... I think that's exactly the naivete that writers like Giffen were trying to expose. It all seemed so much simpler because the Kool aid we were being led to drink was simpler. There were good guys, there were bad guys, and we were on the side of right and victory, so go listen to some uncomplicated music about sex and happiness and buy some stuff. I miss it too, even if it was an illusion. "I didn't put you in a prison. I just showed you the bars." - V for Vendetta Nice to see that politically incorrect 80s relic "drinking the Kool-Aid" is still around.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 1, 2016 22:33:20 GMT -5
Nice to see that politically incorrect 80s relic "drinking the Kool-Aid" is still around. Politically incorrect? That's new to me. How?
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Post by Action Ace on Jan 1, 2016 22:36:25 GMT -5
Nice to see that politically incorrect 80s relic "drinking the Kool-Aid" is still around. Politically incorrect? That's new to me. How? What's the source of the phrase?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2016 22:42:38 GMT -5
Politically incorrect? That's new to me. How? What's the source of the phrase? Jim Jones and the Jonestown Massacre if anyone doesn't know. Edit to add: and the phrase is still in common usage to refer to anyone who has been guiled into believing something that is not true and/or not good for them or for buying into a false message. This is the first time I've ever seen the politically incorrect label slapped onto it. -M
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Post by shaxper on Jan 1, 2016 22:45:56 GMT -5
mrp beat me to it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2016 22:46:54 GMT -5
I actually hear it all the time used by sportscasters talking about athletes buying into a coach's message at both the college and pro levels.
-M
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Post by shaxper on Jan 1, 2016 23:47:19 GMT -5
Andy Helfer's Introduction to the Justice League, Part 2 (from Justice League #3)
"So -- ahem -- we were going to tell you how the creative guys behind this book got involved -- and we'd already mentioned the discovery of Mr. Kevin Maguire, and the persistence of Mr. Keith Giffen -- and we were just about to et to the reluctance of Mr. J.M. DeMatteis, and how ye olde editor convinced him to add the JUSTICE LEAGUE scripting chores to his already frantic schedule.
Note that we say SCRIPTING chores -- for those of you who might be unfamiliar with the credit box terminology we ere take for granted so often, "scripter" is the guy who puts the words in the characters mouths after the art is drawn. Now, the aforementioned Mr. Giffen plots the story first -- that is, he sits down with the editor at regular intervals (usually once a month) and figures out the events that will take place in any given issue. This includes both major plots, subplots, character "bits" and anything else the plotter cares to toss in. Usually, the average writer will then hand in a typed, page-by-page breakdown of the story, which the penciler will then illustrate; in Mr. Giffen's case, an uncontrollable fear of typewriters (or maybe just their ribbons) forces him to produce his plots as a set of small, nominally rendered mini-pages, which acts as a layout "guide" for the pencil artist. (Keep this in mind, dear reader -- it becomes more important as we near the end of this tale.)
As we said, once the page is penciled, the entire package is shipped off to the scripter, who dialogues the pages based on the plot. Now, you might think that with the plotting and penciling complete. writing the dialogue would be a simple, if not boring task -- after all, wasn't all that stuff worked out in the plot? Isn't it just a matter of taking the existing ideas and making them sound consistent with the characters as we know them?
The answer, simply put, is NO! A book's dialogue can take the tone and character of a book into totally unanticipated directions -- the scripter is anything BUT a "hired hand." One has only to watch Woody Allen's "What's Up, Tiger Lilly?" to know how crucial the dialogue can be. There, The Woodman (as his friends call him -- no relation to the forthcoming DC hero of the same name) took a straight-faced Chinese spy movie and redubbed it, creating one of the strangest, funniest spoofs ever. It had totally, absolutely, nothing to do with the original movie -- the dialogue alone had transformed it into something completely different.
So, with all that being said, you can understand why we needed just the right person for this job -- and in a moment, you'll know why J.M. DeMatteis was that person.
We'd already admired J.M.'s work -- from his early days writing horror stories for the old HOUSE OF MYSTERY title, through his work on Marvel titles like Captain America and The Defenders. We were awed by his Greenberg the Vampire Graphic novel, and -- you should pardon the expression -- "blown away" by the Epic maxi-series Moonshadow, which, we'll say right here, simply HAD to be one of the top three or four series of 1986 (and we'll let you guess what we think the others were). Styllistically, J.M.'s work runs the full gamut, from straight superhero tales, to profound, heartwarming, and sometimes, downright silly stories about seemingly ordinary people caught up in extraordinary circumstances. But in every job J.M. takes on, he makes you believe you really KNOW the characters -- he has this uncanny ability to use even the smallest piece of dialog to make you FEEL his characters like few other writers can. High praise indeed, we know -- but all you have to do is check out his work, and you'll know exactly what we're talking about.
We were looking for that kind of talent for the new JUSTICE LEAGUE -- and although the resultant work that you've probably just finished reading might seem miles apart from the kind of insightful work J.M. is noted for, it's really not all that different; without J.M.'s input, the members of the JUSTICE LEAGUE wouldn't have half the wit, charm, or even tough-minded arrogance that they now appear to have in abundance.
So now, we were set; all we needed was the inker.
When Terry Austin took a look at the pencils of the first issue of JUSTICE LEAGUE, he flipped. He thought they were great. Ye olde Editor asked him if he'd like to ink it -- he said yes. Plain and simple. We all felt honored -- after all, Terry is acknowledged far and wide as the top inker in comics today -- many people in the field would give their eye-teeth to work with Terry -- some, even if they DID know how painful losing them would be.
So, Terry was set. The only problem was that, at the time he'd seen Kevin's pencils, the aforementioned Mr. DeMatteis had not yet come on board, nor would he for another two months since the production process usually requires the lettering to be done before the inking, the pages sat... and time marched on... and before anyone knew it, Terry had become committed to other, more immediate projects. He DID agree to do the first issue (but then, you already KNEW that, right) and after that...?
Enter Al Gordon, otherwise known as "El Gorderoono," (don't ask us why -- but we think it was editor Mike Carlin's idea). Al's a real talent, who's been in the business for almost ten years. About seven ago, he'd worked with Roy Thomas and Scott Shaw on CAPTAIN CARROT AND HIS AMAZING ZOO CREW, and while Al steadfastly maintains that this was the high-water mark of his career, we prefer his many inking jobs over the likes of John Byrne and Jerry Ordway on the Fantastic Four. In between, he'd done many a job for the competition, which had earned him quite a reputation in the field, and made all of us here at DC jealous that he wasn't doing much work for us. When Al took a look at JUSTICE LEAGUE, however, those days were numbered-- he jumped at the chance to ink the book on a regular basis -- and we're pleased as punch to have him!
Finally..We can't finish this tale without a mention of Bob Lappan and Gene D'Angelo. First, Bob's one of the most distinctive letterer's in the business -- his work looks GREAT! It's inventive, imaginative, crisp, clean...we could go on and on. Bob is, to our mind, one of the most thoughtful letterers we know -- and we hope he stays around a looong time.
Second, Gene's one of three hold-overs from the previous incarnation of the JLA -- that's besides J.M. DeMatteis and ye olde editor, Andy Helfer. Gene is one of the few guys that can take characters of fifty different colors and find a background color that NONE of them fade away against. That alone makes him a valued asset. And hey, if it wasn't broke in the first place, why fix it?"
(Andy goes on to solicit letters for the letter column)
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Post by spoon on Jan 2, 2016 0:20:10 GMT -5
I think Al Gordon's inks work better with Maguire's pencils than Terry Austin's inks do. Even though the I love the Byrne/Austin combo on X-Men, I don't seem to like Austin's inks much otherwise. They've got a scratchy look.
I like #3 a lot better than #1 or #2. The plot starts to really develop. Characters get greater development. The series continues to build a sense of how the team members interact. I think the sense of humor is growing from the first two issues. The ending at the nuclear plant is really tragic, and there's some nuance to the politics.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 2, 2016 0:23:32 GMT -5
I think Al Gordon's inks work better with Maguire's pencils than Terry Austin's inks do. Even though the I love the Byrne/Austin combo on X-Men, I don't seem to like Austin's inks much otherwise. They've got a scratchy look. I wonder if Austin was somehow trying to compliment Maguire's unusual style with a non-traditional approach. But no, it didn't really work. Only now, after reading Helfer's explanation of what everyone contributed, do I begin to understand just how much of that was coming from DeMatteis by this point. In the first issue, Giffen spends a LOT of panels on character interaction, but by #3, it seems like DeMatteis is inserting the gags into otherwise straight-forward action sequences that weren't designed to deliver humor.
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Post by shaxper on Jan 2, 2016 1:28:55 GMT -5
Justice League #4 "Winning Hand" plot and breakdowns: Keith Giffen script: J.M. DeMatteis pencils: Kevin Maguire inks: Al Gordon letters: Bob Lappan colors: Gene D'Angelo editor: Andrew Helfer grade: A- It's clear by this point that the Justice League roster was still very much in flux for Helfer and Giffen. I'm still hoping Action Ace's painstaking retyping of the old Helfer introductory material for the first trade paperback edition will provide some insight as to the reasons they took on the characters they did -- a true mishmash from the DCU that didn't entirely seem to be their choosing, but it's at least safe to say decisions and deals were still being made behind the scenes. And thus, out of the blue, we lose Dr. Light before she ever even got a chance to don her costume. She's gone before she's ever given a chance to earn a presence in the title. Beyond being the excuse the League needed to be summoned to the United Nations in the first issue (and really, that was Lord pulling the strings anyway), she did nothing in these first four issues that couldn't have been done by someone else. So I can presume either that this was a last second decision (either because Giffen or Helfer really didn't want her or because someone else did), or that there was a purpose in having her stick around for three issues, only to quit at the beginning of the fourth. Maybe the entire point of this was to get Maxwell Lord's reaction where he states "She had to leave. But she'll be back -- if you want her back. She's not really that important, after all." Perhaps it was necessary to give Max an opportunity to show just how little regard he has for the lives he's manipulating. Of course, that also undermines this sense we've been given about Max for three issues now that he's all-knowing, all-powerful and, well, Lord-like. He really comes off completely unprepared both for Dr. Light's reaction and for The League's in this issue. But anyway, in regard to the volatility of the roster, it's clear that Giffen was really really excited to get Booster Gold added to the title, as this issue drops everything else it was doing for his big debut. Forget deep musings on international politics, the ethics of war, and a subtle discourse on American complacency. This is just a simple and fun opportunity to introduce Booster to the team, providing him with a convenient way to prove himself (that may well have been engineered by Maxwell Lord without Booster's knowledge). At first, it's a poor sell. It's noble seeing Booster decline Lord's invitation to join the team when he realizes the team itself doesn't want him, and it's somewhat endearing to learn the shameless Booster Gold actually reveres the League and would be honored to be counted among them, but his characterization is lacking at first. He gets into a battle with the Royal Flush Gang, and...well...he just isn't funny. But then DeMatteis works his charm. Whether inadvertently or by design, as soon as Booster gets his second wind and starts kicking butt in the fight, his jokes suddenly become hilarious too. Soon, between Giffen's breakdowns, Maguire's art, and DeMatteis' gags, we're having one hell of a time rooting for Booster, and, in a moment that would have felt totally Gary Stu had it not been done so well, so is The League. In fact, the League, itself, becomes funnier and more vibrant in response to Booster. Up to this point, it felt like Giffen knew exactly what to do with Batman and Guy Gardner and had been struggling with a bunch of other characters who had been thrust upon him. But here, through Booster Gold, he finds a center for the team. It begins to feel like a complete cast of characters. But we do abandon everything else Giffen had been working toward in those first three issues in order to get this. Heck, the Justice League even WINS for the first time in this issue (Issue #1 doesn't count, as it was all arranged by Lord). Although this victory may well have been arranged by Lord as well, AND it technically doesn't count since Booster wasn't a member of the team when he saved the day, and that was the point. The android he was fighting was programmed to defeat the current League members, not Booster. Anyway... Important Details:- (Presumably) first actual win for The Justice League - Booster Gold joins - Dr. Light quits when she realizes her membership invitation was a sham, concocted by Maxwell Lord - Maxwell Lord introduces himself to the press as The League's PR rep without their permission - Maxwell Lord has a master plan for the team of which Booster Gold is at least partially aware. Minor Details:- Booster Gold without Skeets?? - No Dr. Fate in this issue either, but we're promised that he's coming back for the next one. - We still haven't seen Oberon since issue #1 - I'm usually the last to notice homage covers, but I actually have the original in my collection: John Byrne will employ a similar homage a year from now: which I only know because I already reviewed it in my Superman in the Post-Crisis Era review thread. plot synopsis:
Batman is furious that Maxwell Lord has gained access to the HQ and is inviting new members without their even knowing him, Dr. Light quits in response, and Booster Gold initially decides to walk away as well, but is then in the right place to stop The Royal Flush Gang from ambushing the HQ. The team watches from afar and decides he has earned their approval, but a final android then arrives, programmed to take down the entire League, and it takes Booster's quick thinking to save the day. The team is impressed even further, and he is asked to join, all while Maxwell Lord is outside, introducing himself to the press as The League's PR representative.
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Post by tingramretro on Jan 2, 2016 2:39:56 GMT -5
Minor Details:- Booster Gold without Skeets?? - We still haven't seen Oberon since issue #1
Oberon becomes a much more significant presence later on, but we basically don't see Skeets in this title, at least in this incarnation. That always struck me as a bit odd, and I don't think any explanation was ever given for it. Once Booster's solo title folded, Skeets was forgotten altogether for several years until he was eventually, if I recall correctly, found in storage somewhere.
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Post by shaxper on Jan 2, 2016 2:46:10 GMT -5
Minor Details:- Booster Gold without Skeets?? - We still haven't seen Oberon since issue #1
we basically don't see Skeets in this title, at least in this incarnation. That always struck me as a bit odd, and I don't think any explanation was ever given for it. Once Booster's solo title folded, Skeets was forgotten altogether for several years until he was eventually, if I recall correctly, found in storage somewhere. From a creative point of view, I suppose that Skeets' primary function was to give Booster a straight-man to play off of. In the context of a team setting, you really don't need that. I wonder, too, how well the Booster solo title was faring. Perhaps Giffen felt he had an opportunity to redefine a character folks generally weren't familiar with? I pretty much know Booster Gold primarily from the Justice League Unlimited cartoon, and that version had a Skeets, but maybe he wasn't as essential to the original incarnation of the character?
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Post by shaxper on Jan 2, 2016 2:56:26 GMT -5
Wow. In three days: 10 reviews, 117 replies, 8 pages, 2,191 views.
Just now beginning to understand how quickly this thread has exploded.
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Post by tingramretro on Jan 2, 2016 3:05:35 GMT -5
Skeets was a pretty significant character in Booster's original solo title, right to the end. But as far as I can recall, absolutely nothing from that book was ever referenced in the Justice League book, even though the JLI guest starred in Booster Gold more than once. Same with Blue Beetle. No attempt whatsoever was made to reflect events in any member's solo title, and none of their regular supporting cast were ever featured.
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Post by realjla on Jan 2, 2016 3:48:09 GMT -5
Skeets was a pretty significant character in Booster's original solo title, right to the end. But as far as I can recall, absolutely nothing from that book was ever referenced in the Justice League book, even though the JLI guest starred in Booster Gold more than once. Same with Blue Beetle. No attempt whatsoever was made to reflect events in any member's solo title, and none of their regular supporting cast were ever featured. That was also largely the case with the original version of the League, at least after the Silver Age(of course, in the Detroit era, none of them appeared anywhere else, until Aquaman left prior to his miniseries in late '85). Even when Batman came back, in the Despero story arc, Bruce Wayne and Miri Macabe go on a date, which (falsely) signals a relationship, with no attempt to accommodate Batman's continuity. In solo books, the League was always "on a mission in space", or occasionally fighting the same 'big' threat elsewhere, off-panel. In their own book, Leaguers didn't discuss events from their individual titles until the early '80s, when members started quitting(Batman) or taking extended 'leaves of absence' due to circumstances in/editorial demands of, their own books/features(GL, Flash, Hawkgirl, Atom), and those departures had to be acknowledged.Sue Dibny or Lois Lane might turn up once in a while(both in the same story, actually, in JLA # 194), but otherwise such occasions were few and far between, to the point that it was almost weird to see Alfred or Steve Lombard in a JLA tale. As you'll find out if you get to JLEurope, Sue would play a much larger role. Odder still, Commissioner Gordon asks the League for help...and visits the satellite, no less...in the first JLA annual(1983), in between the first two issues of Batman and the Outsiders.
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