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Post by tingramretro on Jan 6, 2016 12:42:22 GMT -5
Yes, it sure does. But Star Wars is its own thing, and the original topic whether superhero comics are still a mainstream product. I guess Star Wars comics have been available worldwide far beyond any kind of direct market for quite a while now Since 1977, in fact. At least, that was when Marvel UK launched Star Wars Weekly.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 6, 2016 12:53:56 GMT -5
I think you are a little : First of all, and again, I'm talking global, not US. Second of all, do these numbers break down categories of DC books? Because it's been common knowledge that Vertigo collections and such have been the driving force of the DC library outside the direct market, not superherobooks. Outside of frank Miller and Alan Moore superhero books, it's mostly about Sandman, Fables, Transmet, Preacher, Y The Last Man, etc Or has this changed? Also, so I understand you correctly, when this B.Hibbs analysis says DC sells more then other publishers, what does that mean? Any other publishers? More then books? Except there isn't a global mainstream, so the distinction is meaningless. What is consumed by the masses in France is VERY different than what is popularly consumed in Germany, Japan or the US; they like different music, different TV shows, different clothing styles...there is no real consistency among them so comparisons don't make sense. When I conceded that perhaps we could look at the buying habits of the larger public as it relates comic books I was assuming that it was understood that we were specifically talking about US pop culture as Scott McCloud is an American. And that common knowledge, isn't correct as evidenced by Hibbs break down which lists the top ten comics published by DC as: 1) The Killing Joke 2)Dark Knight Returns 3)Batman:Court of Owls 4)Batman: City of Owls 5) V for Vendetta 6) Batman: Year One 7)Hush 8)Justice League Vol.1 9)Sandman Vol.1 10)Batman:Death of the Family And when he says other publishers he is talking about all publishers, though he only counts the comics they produced. Not all DC sales are superheroes, though... in fact, I'd guess the majority are not. Stuff like Sandman, Fables, Preacher, DMS, Y the last man, etc are all regular sellers and all not superheroes. They're regular sellers, but they are not the majority, according to Hibbs of the 130 books that DC had in the top 750 sixty-two were Nu52 books. Batman alone put up 54 titles, alough he didn't break down which were Nu52 or prior but it still remains to be said that the majority of the output was superhero related.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jan 6, 2016 12:59:40 GMT -5
Or at least superhero comic books, because the last 4 years UK box office featured between one and three proper superhero movies in the tearly top tens, and The Misfits was one of the top local tv shows.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 6, 2016 13:08:42 GMT -5
Really? Huh.. I'm surprised there's so much Batman.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 6, 2016 13:14:38 GMT -5
Really? Huh.. I'm surprised there's so much Batman. As Hibbs' humorously said, "He's a pretty popular fellow."
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jan 6, 2016 13:27:07 GMT -5
What is consumed by the masses in France is VERY different than what is popularly consumed in Germany, Japan or the US; they like different music, different TV shows, different clothing styles... I strongly disagree with this : people in Germany France or the US mostly have the same activities, eat the same stuff, have the same clothes and watch the same movies. There sure are nuances, but not enough to disqualify the existance of a global western mainstream audience, at least not in my opinion or by the numbers I read. I certainly don't believe that DC or Marvel comics still solely think local US market when they make big editorial decisions anymore, otherwise, by the numbers you give us, if those are to be believed, Vertigo wouldn't even exist anymore in the corporate world. I just read the report BTW, and it is interesting in many ways even if by its own admitance deeply flawed (more then the concept of a global mainstream audience), but again, you have to compare apples with apples : Of all their top ten sellers (which are far far away from the top sellers of the list - their number one actually being a Toy/costume inculding a comic book), all the superhero books have big and successfull cross-media success. What would be really revealing is to see the position in this list (and sales numbers) of the first proper superhero comic from DC or Marvel that doesn't enjoy cross media exposure (titles featuring no main characters so far associated with movies, tv series or video games).
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Post by tingramretro on Jan 6, 2016 13:28:40 GMT -5
Or at least superhero comic books, because the last 4 years UK box office featured between one and three proper superhero movies in the tearly top tens, and The Misfits was one of the top local tv shows. Sorry, I should have specified it was just comics I was talking about.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jan 6, 2016 13:29:11 GMT -5
But hey, it's not a big deal. I don't believe that superheroe comic books are mainstream products anymore, you do. Before this discussion and the numbers we all sought, I didn't have a strong opinion about it, but with the new info and considerations, my opinion is set, for now
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 6, 2016 13:41:01 GMT -5
So, the question Marvel and DC need the answer to is HOW do you get all the people who go and what the movies to read the comics? Or perhaps (as I and I know MRP suspect) they don't care who reads the comics, as long as the properties are viable for other media.
Incidently, I'd assume right now the most popular book without multimedia exposure is Ms. Marvel (though she may be on the Spiderman cartoon now).. no one else is close. I'd guess Daredevil a distant 2nd. On the DC side.. maybe Batgirl (if that counts)
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jan 6, 2016 14:07:31 GMT -5
So, the question Marvel and DC need the answer to is HOW do you get all the people who go and what the movies to read the comics? Or perhaps (as I and I know MRP suspect) they don't care who reads the comics, as long as the properties are viable for other media. Incidently, I'd assume right now the most popular book without multimedia exposure is Ms. Marvel (though she may be on the Spiderman cartoon now).. no one else is close. I'd guess Daredevil a distant 2nd. On the DC side.. maybe Batgirl (if that counts) Daredevil had two blockbuster movies and a TV series that is currently debated on these boards But Ms Marvel and Batgirl maybe are the two top pure comic book superheroes. Any numbers on their sales in and outside of the direct market? And I'm in full agreement that DC and Marvel have realized that their main platforms for superheroes aren't comics anymore as I extensivly pondered on
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 6, 2016 14:10:37 GMT -5
What is consumed by the masses in France is VERY different than what is popularly consumed in Germany, Japan or the US; they like different music, different TV shows, different clothing styles... I strongly disagree with this : people in Germany France or the US mostly have the same activities, eat the same stuff, have the same clothes and watch the same movies. There sure are nuances, but not enough to disqualify the existance of a global western mainstream audience, at least not in my opinion or by the numbers I read. I certainly don't believe that DC or Marvel comics still solely think local US market when they make big editorial decisions anymore, otherwise, by the numbers you give us, if those are to be believed, Vertigo wouldn't even exist anymore in the corporate world. I just read the report BTW, and it is interesting in many ways even if by its own admitance deeply flawed (more then the concept of a global mainstream audience), but again, you have to compare apples with apples : Of all their top ten sellers (which are far far away from the top sellers of the list - their number one actually being a Toy/costume inculding a comic book), all the superhero books have big and successfull cross-media success. What would be really revealing is to see the position in this list (and sales numbers) of the first proper superhero comic from DC or Marvel that doesn't enjoy cross media exposure (titles featuring no main characters so far associated with movies, tv series or video games). We don't have the same activities though, US Football, Baseball and even Basketball are all part of popculture here and the interest else where is nearly non-existant, meanwhile sports like Soccer, Rugby and Cricket are huge in the UK, Australia and else where but are nearly unknown here. And while there are some musical artists with a global reach like U2, Sam Smith and the likes of Taylor Swift, Rihanna and Beyonce the majority of each countries top artists is different. And popular TV that people talk about around the water cooler at work? Outside of maybe something like the Game of Thrones there is very little crossover to speak of. And style of dress is different as well, for instance sneakers are probably the most common shoe for both men and women in the US but in mainland Europe unless I was in the gym I hardly ever saw a woman in sneakers and even in men it was uncommon to see them in sneakers and further there were two different bars that I tried to get into in Paris that wouldn't even let me in because I was wearing sneakers. Cargo shorts and over sized sweat shirts are also popular style here and again are seldom seen else where and probably one the most popular style items for men in the US is the Baseball cap which is also rare in other parts of the world. Movies tend to be the rule breaker however as what is popular in the states on film tend to be popular elsewhere too but one thing does not make a global mainstream of pop culture. As for comics, yes the US market is still the focus for Marvel and DC. Other than Batman: Europa I don't think there is currently a single comic being put out by the big two set out side of the US and there are no real big name heroes that are from outside the US outside of Wolverine. Their plots largely mirror US culture, when they make political references they are focused on US current events, and if they reference pop culture it's US based as well...and I don't see how that would mean there wouldn't be Vertigo as there are other tastes these publishers cater to as well, they just don't put the focus on them to the extent that they do on super heroes. And the review Hibbs gave isn't deeply flawed, it isn't an absolute snap shot of sales outside of the direct market as not every store uses book scan but many of the larger distributors like Barnes and Noble do so with that sample size one could reliably assume the US market as a whole isn't that different. And DC's highest dollar book was a mask/comic combo set, not it's best seller there's a difference there and they were not far away from the top seller's list as their highest hit was #27 which can hardly be said to be far from the top of the heap.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 6, 2016 14:22:56 GMT -5
So, the question Marvel and DC need the answer to is HOW do you get all the people who go and what the movies to read the comics? Or perhaps (as I and I know MRP suspect) they don't care who reads the comics, as long as the properties are viable for other media. Incidently, I'd assume right now the most popular book without multimedia exposure is Ms. Marvel (though she may be on the Spiderman cartoon now).. no one else is close. I'd guess Daredevil a distant 2nd. On the DC side.. maybe Batgirl (if that counts) Judging by sales there are a good number of people who are reading the comics...just not the single issues but that's an issue of packaging preference not a question of mainstream popularity of super hero comic book storytelling in general. And I don't think that preference is going unnoticed either, as I mentioned the window between when a story finishes its run and when the collected version hits the stands seems to shrink every year and there are experiments in the viability of on going series of self contained graphic novels rather than single issues seemingly aimed directly at the non-direct market so it would seem that as time goes on the medium will continue to evolve much as it always has. That evolution isn't always as fast as we'd like, and its sometimes sluggish pace has put it in jeopardy several times over the decades but it does respond to the trends in the wider population in order to survive.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jan 6, 2016 14:38:25 GMT -5
We don't have the same activities though, US Football, Baseball and even Basketball are all part of popculture here and the interest else where is nearly non-existant, meanwhile sports like Soccer, Rugby and Cricket are huge in the UK, Australia and else where but are nearly unknown here. And while there are some musical artists with a global reach like U2, Sam Smith and the likes of Taylor Swift, Rihanna and Beyonce the majority of each countries top artists is different. And popular TV that people talk about around the water cooler at work? Outside of maybe something like the Game of Thrones there is very little crossover to speak of. And style of dress is different as well, for instance sneakers are probably the most common shoe for both men and women in the US but in mainland Europe unless I was in the gym I hardly ever saw a woman in sneakers and even in men it was uncommon to see them in sneakers and further there were two different bars that I tried to get into in Paris that wouldn't even let me in because I was wearing sneakers. Cargo shorts and over sized sweat shirts are also popular style here and again are seldom seen else where and probably one the most popular style items for men in the US is the Baseball cap which is also rare in other parts of the world. Movies tend to be the rule breaker however as what is popular in the states on film tend to be popular elsewhere too but one thing does not make a global mainstream of pop culture. As for comics, yes the US market is still the focus for Marvel and DC. Other than Batman: Europa I don't think there is currently a single comic being put out by the big two set out side of the US and there are no real big name heroes that are from outside the US outside of Wolverine. Their plots largely mirror US culture, when they make political references they are focused on US current events, and if they reference pop culture it's US based as well...and I don't see how that would mean there wouldn't be Vertigo as there are other tastes these publishers cater to as well, they just don't put the focus on them to the extent that they do on super heroes. And the review Hibbs gave isn't deeply flawed, it isn't an absolute snap shot of sales outside of the direct market as not every store uses book scan but many of the larger distributors like Barnes and Noble do so with that sample size one could reliably assume the US market as a whole isn't that different. And DC's highest dollar book was a mask/comic combo set, not it's best seller there's a difference there and they were not far away from the top seller's list as their highest hit was #27 which can hardly be said to be far from the top of the heap. Sports : all team sports developped by WASPs and televised, everyone aware of all of them, same companies advertise through all of those. Flavor of the day biggest mainstream singers are present in all western top billboards Macdonalds and Pizza hut are everywhere Nike and Addidas are everywhere, andeven if some very unmainstream spots in Paris don't alow sneakers, same goes with some places in NYC... Game of Thrones and The Office are everywhere (they make local versions of so many successfull TV shows now, like The Bridge, The Killing, Homeland or even Breaking Bad) Same companies own almost all of western medias. Brand loyalty is global, as are those brands, therefore the expression of a mainstream culture in our media society. English language is also a pivotal part of that mainstream culture. I don't percieve mainstream as pejorative, so I really don't see where you're going with all hte cultural exceptions/specificities Bottom line, the same type of food clothe and hobbies are available and mainstream in all of the mainstream world. About DC and Marvel focus being solely on the US market supposedly because they only publish one comic where the action is set there, I don't know what to answer you if you really feel that way. Of course I'm not talking about editorial geographical numbers, hahaha! I'm just saying that as with movies, DC and Marvel are fully aware thatinternational sales are as important as US ones, if not more. Many european comics have american characters and stories set there, yet they are mostly marketed towards the local market. I really fail to see the logic of your argument. And about the report being deeply flawed, when it's author self accounts that amongst other faults, the amount of reached bookstores might just be 50% lower than their believed 85% reach of bookstore chains, excluding any indie store or online bookclub/independant dealer or libraries, well yes I assume those numbers are just a deeply flawed statistical tool, an interesting one nevertheless
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 6, 2016 14:40:32 GMT -5
Daredevil had two blockbuster movies and a TV series that is currently debated on these boards But Ms Marvel and Batgirl maybe are the two top pure comic book superheroes. Any numbers on their sales in and outside of the direct market? And I'm in full agreement that DC and Marvel have realized that their main platforms for superheroes aren't comics anymore as I extensivly pondered on I was thinking the Daredevil series was after that report.. but yeah, there was that horrible movie, I suppose that does count . Ms. Marvel vol. 1 is currently #3503 on the Amazon Sales list (total)... #7 for Marvel products (behind 4 Star Wars TPB), Civil War, and a weird kids book that's not actually a comic). Of Marvels current top 20 on Amazon: 8 Stars Wars trades (all the 'new' era) 2 are Civil War (regular and kindle edition) 2 Ms. Marvel (vol. 1 and 4) 2 Squirrel Girl (vol. 1 and 2) 2 Deadpool (Daniel Way run and Deadpool kills the MU) 2 Alias (first 2 volumes) Avengers: Beginnings( a one issue kindle something for kids) 5 Minute Marvel Stories (another kids book... I think prose, though I'm not sure.) The top 20 graphic Novels (all of them, not just Marvel) have several things that aren't comics... a disney princess coloring book is #2, and the 2016 Dilbert day by day calendar is #1. Of the comics, you have a couple walking dead compendiums, Civl War (which is #20... it's #842 overall, so pretty far ahead of Ms. Marvel).. a few Star Wars, Alison Bechdel's Fun Home, Persepolis, a couple weird things, Saga, Sandman: Overture, and a few Manga. Amazon isn't the be all and end all, obviously, but I'd say it's probably pretty typical.. it's not like they have stores that can push particular things, they sell everything and people buy what they want. Another thing that I found interesting... they list Ms. Marvel as #1 is 'Mystery' comics. I'm not sure what makes it a mystery comic. Other in that category include Hellblazer, Batman, Red Hood and the Outlaws, Minecraft comics, and a few that are actual mysteries.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jan 6, 2016 14:43:40 GMT -5
This almost feels like explaining to a mainstream movie audience going to see a superhero movie tat Batman isn't a superhero since he doesn't have superpowers... It might be true, but it's so specific that it doesn't matter that much and a generalisation is usefull in this case, if not for the sole purepose of intercommunication, as with the mainstream audience concept
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