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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 10:35:12 GMT -5
Batroc is one of my favorite villains that Captain America fought and I'm very disappointed in Marvel Comics for not using him more and that's one of the major reasons as I get older - I stopped reading Captain America altogether. I read Captain America from 8 to 14 and after I turned 14 ... I stopped reading it and kept on reading his adventures in Tales of Suspense and not his books.
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Post by The Captain on Feb 22, 2017 20:39:43 GMT -5
Tales of Suspense #86"The Secret" Writer: Stan Lee Art: Jack Kirby and Frank Giacoia Cover Date: February 1967 SynopsisAccording to the caption at the top of the first page, the location is the Yashonka Arms Research Center, which is somewhere in "the Orient". Captain America stands perched above two soldiers discussing their new weapons, which they believe will make them stronger than "the decadent democracies". Alerted by the flashing alarm button, they wheel around to see Cap, and even though he urges caution, they fire on him anyway. Leaping forward and striking, he knocks each out, one with a fist and the other with his shield, then presses forward on his mission, which is to find S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 60. Cap runs into another guard, so he hides but is quickly discovered by a soldier in a large battlesuit flanked by other guards. Twice Cap is struck by the mechanized fists of the armored man, but he grabs a nearby "explosive capsule" and hurls it at the suited man, only to discover it was a "thermal capsule" that bursts into flames upon contact. This provides Cap with the opportunity to escape, and he leaps upward, slipping into an electroshaft high on the wall. He scurries through the shaft until the comes to the room where Agent 60 is being kept; Cap enters, and Agent 60 tucks some papers inside his jacket before turning to Cap with gun drawn. Cap talks him down by mentioning Agent 13, and Agent 60 hands over the pages he'd hidden, as they contained the description and location of the "Z-Ray", which he had been sent to destroy. Out in the hallway, the guards search frantically for Cap, and they eventually knock on the door to Agent 60's room so they can search it; Agent 60, however, sends them away, but after they go, he tells Cap that they will soon release their "Beeper Dogs" to find Cap, and these mechanized bloodhounds never fail. Cap urges Agent 60 to come with him to destroy the Z-Ray, but Agent 60 breaks down under the stress of his double agency, so Cap leaves him and goes forward alone. In the corridor, Cap is attacked by the guards and a Beeper Dog, which starts firing at him; he takes it out with his shield, but it ruptures, throwing off deadly electrical charges at random. Cap grabs his shield and races off, only to be confronted by two guards with a "flaming solar gun". He eludes the blasts and eliminates the operators, then fights a group of gun-toting guards before running from two more guards in an "air car" armed with "atomic missiles". Agent 60, having recovered, shoots the drivers before being shot himself, so Cap leaps into the still-flying air car and flies over the guards, only to run into a cloud of poison gas, which he flies through safely to make his way to the Z-Ray. He blows it up with the atomic missiles, and having completed his mission, Cap radios S.H.I.E.L.D., telling Nick Fury to let Agent 13 know he'll be there for their dinner date, only to be informed that she has been sent on a top-secret mission, leaving Cap to wonder if he's lost her forever. Continuity Issues: None My ThoughtsThis issue was absolutely meaningless and forgettable. Generic "Oriental" villains that by themselves offered Cap zero challenge, as there was no sense that Cap was ever in trouble, as he ducked, dodged, and punched his way through the enemy without problems. The Z-Ray, which was the central piece of the story, never even had its abilities described, so it was simply a MacGuffin to put Cap into this situation and fill up some pages. Beyond that, Stan just kept throwing every wild sci-fi idea he'd ever had into the story, with Beeper Dogs and Air Cars armed with atomic missiles and flaming solar guns. None of it had any basis in reality and it ignored actual science, such as how there was no damage to Cap after being so close to an exploding "atomic missile", which took out not only the Z-Ray but "atomized" the rockets behind him, or how a weapon could generate the magnitude of heat that the "flaming solar gun" did while being no larger than a conventional gun. Another problem with this issue is how much Cap knew about the weapons around him, such as: 1. He looks at a pile of canisters and thinks that they are "explosive capsules", when they just as easily could have been filled with pudding; he was wrong, however, as they were actually "thermal capsules", but that is beside the point. 2. When facing the "flaming solar gun", he remarks that the "intense, deadly solar heat can eat through solid steel in a fraction of a second", but how the hell does he know that just by looking at it? He's dodging its rays, so it's not like he has time to assess the rate of damage its racking up. 3. He has no problem operating the air car after he jumps into it, even though he's never piloted or seen one before. 4. He assesses the poison cloud as coming from a "phosgene gas capsule". Did he stop to read the labels on the sides of every capsule in the place? He wouldn't have gotten any clues from actual phosgene, which is a colorless gas, but the cloud he saw was green in tint, so how did he know the exact type of gas he was facing? As with other previous issues, Silly Silver Age Science generally makes for bad stories, and this is no exception. My Grade: F. Such a bad story, particularly after one that was fairly compelling in terms of character work the issue before. Not every issue can be a winner, but this was an abject failure in every aspect. I can pretty much guarantee I will never read this issue again over the course of the rest of my life.
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Post by Rob Allen on Feb 22, 2017 21:00:39 GMT -5
Stan just kept throwing every wild sci-fi idea he'd ever had into the story Why blame Stan alone? This was the heyday of the Marvel Method. Jack had at least as much input into the story; according to some, a lot more than Stan did. Kirby seemed to like this kind of story. Stan had to put something in the balloons and captions to help the action make sense; he didn't always succeed.
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Post by The Captain on Feb 22, 2017 21:21:20 GMT -5
Stan just kept throwing every wild sci-fi idea he'd ever had into the story Why blame Stan alone? This was the heyday of the Marvel Method. Jack had at least as much input into the story; according to some, a lot more than Stan did. Kirby seemed to like this kind of story. Stan had to put something in the balloons and captions to help the action make sense; he didn't always succeed. I'm just typically of the opinion that the writer is ultimately responsible for the outcome of the story, and while Kirby may have been the one drawing the crazier elements, it's Stan's words that make them more unbelievable. He's the one that calls it a "flaming solar gun", the one who had Cap identify explosive capsules and phosgene gas capsules on sight, and the one who put atomic missiles on a air car.
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Post by brutalis on Feb 23, 2017 13:52:42 GMT -5
I always enjoyed any appearance of ze zany savate master known as Batroc. It was his flamboyant sense of fun and fairness in fighting which gave him such appeal over the every day i want to take over the world villains or i want to get rich villains. I see Batroc as somebody who truly enjoys his work and wants to get the most pleasure from it that he can while still delivering the "goods" in the end. More Batroc in the day would have been great and even more Batroc today would be good.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 14:52:22 GMT -5
I always enjoyed any appearance of ze zany savate master known as Batroc. It was his flamboyant sense of fun and fairness in fighting which gave him such appeal over the every day i want to take over the world villains or i want to get rich villains. I see Batroc as somebody who truly enjoys his work and wants to get the most pleasure from it that he can while still delivering the "goods" in the end. More Batroc in the day would have been great and even more Batroc today would be good. I agree with you 100% on your views on Batroc!
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Post by tarkintino on Feb 23, 2017 16:45:02 GMT -5
Tales of Suspense #86As with other previous issues, Silly Silver Age Science generally makes for bad stories, and this is no exception. The entire, original Galactus / Silver Surfer arc in F.F. (usually praised as one of the greatest comic stories ever published) was wall to wall "Silly Silver Age Science"--not an ounce of it was plausible, but the story is (as always) the key to sell the sci-fi elements. As noted a few weeks ago, I don't have an issue with wild sci-fi in superhero comics, since so many characters are the direct product of sci-fi inventions that cannot pass a second of real world scrutiny (alien baby rocketed to earth & the yellow sun gives him superpowers, a "super solider" serum, gamma bomb blast turning a man into a giant, raging monster, radioactive spiders, space rings that carry out the will of the user, etc.). As long as the story has a dramatic purpose, the sci-fi elements--no matter how "out there"--are acceptable.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Feb 23, 2017 18:46:06 GMT -5
Tales of Suspense #86As with other previous issues, Silly Silver Age Science generally makes for bad stories, and this is no exception. The entire, original Galactus / Silver Surfer arc in F.F. (usually praised as one of the greatest comic stories ever published) was wall to wall "Silly Silver Age Science"--not an ounce of it was plausible, but the story is (as always) the key to sell the sci-fi elements. As noted a few weeks ago, I don't have an issue with wild sci-fi in superhero comics, since so many characters are the direct product of sci-fi inventions that cannot pass a second of real world scrutiny (alien baby rocketed to earth & the yellow sun gives him superpowers, a "super solider" serum, gamma bomb blast turning a man into a giant, raging monster, radioactive spiders, space rings that carry out the will of the user, etc.). As long as the story has a dramatic purpose, the sci-fi elements--no matter how "out there"--are acceptable. I agree with you.. and I think The Captain does too... he's pointing out the specific things that don't make any sense. The sci-fi has to have internal consistency for it to work... Green Lantern Rings, for instance. Yeah they're silly, but they are consistent (or, they used to be)... they're powered by will, and they can run out of gas... if the user gets distracted, they don't work. That sort thing is good.. it's when things like Stan calling something 'atomic' to make it sound extra special without really knowing what 'atomic' means where one gets annoyed.
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 23, 2017 23:39:02 GMT -5
I always enjoyed any appearance of ze zany savate master known as Batroc. It was his flamboyant sense of fun and fairness in fighting which gave him such appeal over the every day i want to take over the world villains or i want to get rich villains. I see Batroc as somebody who truly enjoys his work and wants to get the most pleasure from it that he can while still delivering the "goods" in the end. More Batroc in the day would have been great and even more Batroc today would be good. I like Batroc; but, just wish someone involved knew the first thing about savate. It is both a stylistic and brutal fighting style, depending on if you are talking about the competitive, kickboxing format, or the earlier version practiced in the streets of post-Napoleonic France. I know Brubaker threw some parkour in there in recent years; but, it's not quite the same. A good example to watch, especially for the more flamboyant Batroc, is 2004's Arsene Lupin, with Romain Duris and Kristen Scott Thomas. Lupin's father is a savate master and the younger Lupin picks up the skill, while also pulling off daring crimes, with much acrobatics and trickery. That is the way to write Batroc, and be true to both the character's history and the reality of both savate and the toughness of the French Foreign Legion. Only problem is Frenchmen are barred from joining, though many enlisted as "Belgians," in the days before the Legion did extensive background checks. I would also love to see some canne de combat included with the character.
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Post by The Captain on Feb 26, 2017 16:57:52 GMT -5
Tales of Suspense #87"Wanted: Captain America" Writer: Stan Lee Art: Jack Sparling and Joe Sinnott Cover Date: March 1967 SynopsisIn an unused NYC subway tunnel, a man calling himself "The Planner" and wearing a Captain America uniform shoots a proton beam through two steel girders and into a poster of Captain America on the wall behind the girders. Henchmen move about, making preparations to leave in a "sub-car" that utilizes the existing rails, and they, along with The Planner, depart, heading off to a bank to stage a robbery. Once inside the bank, the robbers break into the vault while horrified onlookers cannot believe Captain America has turned to a life of crime. Walking out with bags full of money, The Planner makes sure he is seen on camera, and when confronted by a bank guard, he says that Captain America is no longer bound by the Avengers Oath to never harm anyone. They depart in an armored van, only to drop through the bottom into an open manhole and into their waiting sub-car to return to their hideout. The city is abuzz with the discussion of Cap's heel turn, and at Avengers Mansion, Jarvis relays the news of Cap's apparent crime to Steve himself, who tells Jarvis to telephone the police and let them know Cap will be sending someone to them to discuss the situation. At the same time, at The Planner's hideout, he reveals to his minions why he want's Captain America's shield, as he believes it is a storehouse of "complex transitorized gadgets" installed by Iron Man himself and he wants to add that scientific wizardry to his own proton gun to become "the Kingpin of crime". At police HQ, Steve Rogers, acting as Cap's representative, tells the cops that Cap will catch the real criminals in two hours, and if he fails, he will turn himself in, but he assures them it won't come to that. As they talk, news comes that Captain America is robbing a jewelry store near the bank that was previously attacked. The police want to rush out to arrest Cap, but Steve urges them to give the full two hours, as he is certain that the real Cap will stop the imposter; the police chief grants him the time, with the warning that if he fails, the police will look into Steve's connection with Cap. Back at the mansion, Steve suits up and is ready to move on the fake, certain that he's located the hideout based on the evidence. Cap arrives, but is blinded by flashing lights set by The Planner, who was certain Cap would find him. A fight ensues between Cap and The Planner's henchmen, during which one of the henchmen mentions the electronic gimmicks inside the shield; Cap thinks to himself that he removed those months ago, but as he does, he is taken offguard by a kick from The Planner. They battle, with Cap being surprised at his opponent's skill, but he eventually takes control of the fight, forcing The Planner to make an escape. Racing toward an underground electrical plant, The Planner gets away, and when Cap throws his shield, he misses, striking a generator and starting a fire. Hiding in the smoke, The Planner fires his proton gun blindly, but Cap sneaks up on him from behind and knocks him out. Carrying him off to meet the two-hour deadline, Cap tells him that the only thing powering the shield is Cap's right arm, and even if it still had those gimmicks installed, they would only be as potent as the man using them. Continuity Issues: None identified My ThoughtsThis is a straightforward tale of a villain with a plan to frame the hero so that the hero is forced to face him and give the villain an opportunity to get the hero's signature weapon. Unfortunately, The Planner is not only a one-note bad guy but also woefully unaware of his quarry. His intel is months behind on the shield's capabilities, making it pointless in the end and really doing nothing to build Captain America's character. Not too much in the Silly Silver Age Science department this month. The Planner's "proton" gun is one of those things that makes no sense, because while one could argue that an organization such as AIM or even the bad guys from ToS #86 would have access to a weapon like that, how did The Planner get his hands on it? I doubt the black market for high tech weaponry was booming in 1967, as anyone with those types of things would be more apt to use it themselves rather than sell it to others. On the other hand, I liked the idea of the "sub-car" using the existing tracks as a mode of transportation. My Grade: C- A step up from last month's debacle, this is still the very definition of a "filler" issue. Nothing of consequence happens in it to advance the overall Captain America franchise, and the villain is not only forgettable but also kind of incompetent despite having a name like The Planner.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2017 22:29:51 GMT -5
This looks like a great thread! Can't wait to read it! I just bought the Marvel Masterworks that reprints the Cap stories in TOS 59-91, so I'll be reading those soon.
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Post by The Captain on Feb 27, 2017 7:07:24 GMT -5
This looks like a great thread! Can't wait to read it! I just bought the Marvel Masterworks that reprints the Cap stories in TOS 59-91, so I'll be reading those soon. Thanks for reading! I hope this can live up to your early expectations. Please feel free to add your own input on the issues as I go through them. As you can see from the previous pages, not everyone agrees with my ideas and reviews, and that is what can drive not only good conversation but also greater understanding and enjoyment for everyone involved.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2017 8:57:19 GMT -5
Sounds great!!
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Post by Cei-U! on Feb 27, 2017 9:40:56 GMT -5
The only positive thing I can say about that Planner story is that thanks to Joe Sinnott, this is the only Jack Sparling artwork that I can stomach looking at.
Cei-U! I summon the "lipstick on a pig" syndrome!
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Post by The Captain on Feb 28, 2017 17:11:32 GMT -5
Tales of Suspense #88"If Bucky Lives..." Writer: Stan Lee Art: Gil Kane Cover Date: April 1967 SynopsisCap is shaken to his core as he views Bucky on the automatic video monitor in Avengers Mansion, with his friend and former partner saying he's still alive and has been held captive for years and that Cap needs to rescue him now. While it seems unreal, Cap thinks that he was in suspended animation for years and the same could have happened to Bucky, so he gets Bucky's location (an island just off of Nova Scotia) and takes a prototype supersonic cruiser that Tony Stark left at the mansion in an effort to find his friend. On Sea Gull Island, Power Man and The Swordsman float through the air in some kind of plastic bubble, eventually being drawn into a hidden lab. They are greeted by a disembodied voice that tells them he will reward them if they can defeat Captain America, but when the two villains ask questions, they receive no answers, just a message that Cap is on his way. On a nearby viewscreen, they confirm this, and a ray gun in the lab fires a beam at the cruiser containing Cap, ensnaring it in the same type of bubble that delivered them to the island. The bubble floats into the lab and releases the cruiser, and the two race toward it, intent on being the one that bests Captain America and claims the reward. They battle, and though Cap manages to corner The Swordsman, demanding the location of Bucky, his lack of focus allows Power Man to sneak up and grab him, which leads to Cap being tossed across the room into some equipment. Luckily, however, Cap is the better combatant, and he manages to avoid Power Man's follow-up while knocking his attacker out. Without warning, The Swordsman attacks from behind, and Cap is barely able to block an electrical bolt coming from his sword. Ducking and dodging, Cap avoids The Swordsman's attack, eventually manuevering in front of some machinery that causes a power feedback into The Swordsman when he strikes it with another bolt, knocking him out. From above, a silhouette speaks, saying the two unconscious men were but pawns and that he knows the secret of Bucky's return. Taunting Cap, he says that those secrets will perish if anything happens to him as well as telling Cap that he is unimpressed by Cap's anger, as he is a man who will one day be master of the Earth. Cap is then trapped in a plastic bubble as the villains and his plane were before, and as he turns, he sees his captor, a man he recognizes... Continuity Issues: None Identified My ThoughtsOverall, not a bad issue, as the idea of Bucky still being alive hadn't been beaten into the ground yet. Cap has legitimate reason to believe that his partner could still be alive, so racing off to save him makes sense at this point in time. The supersonic cruiser just sitting around at the mansion isn't completely unreasonable, as it's plausible that Tony Stark would leave something like that there for safekeeping, although Cap being able to easily pilot something still identified as a prototype does require some suspension of disbelief. The Swordsman and Power Man are effective here as well. Both had previously tangled with Cap multiple times, including both of them having done so in Avengers #38, which was released just the month prior to this hitting the stands. Guys with egos, as they both had, would certainly be looking to even the score with Cap, and if they could get a shot at a reward in the process only adds to their motivation. However, neither is a fighting match for Cap, so it makes sense that he eventually bests them, even if they manage to get the upper-hand in spots during the fight. While the identity of the mystery man can be fairly easily gleaned by his words, I like that the creative team left it unrevealed as the cliffhanger. Never a bad idea to build up some suspense and drive interest in the next issue. My only real complaint about this story is the bubble mode of transportation. Nothing about it makes the slightest bit of sense, from how it is guided to how The Swordsman and Power Man breathe while inside it. My Grade: B- Nothing spectacular, but putting Cap's strengths (loyalty, fighting prowess) on display, using some established villains to battle Cap as well, and raising the dual questions of "who is the mystery man" and "is Bucky really alive" make this a solid issue.
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