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Post by berkley on Sept 27, 2014 23:26:01 GMT -5
Celts - more Indo-Europeans. Not only Indo-Europeans, though. Marco Polo mentions a Mongol warrior-princess in his Travels, forget her name. And of course there's a long tradition in Chinese legend of the female warrior. It seems to be something that crops up in almost every culture.
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Post by BigPapaJoe on Sept 28, 2014 3:39:39 GMT -5
David Finch is my favorite artist working in comics today. I'm really anxious to see what he brings to the table with Wonder Woman.
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Post by Phil Maurice on Sept 28, 2014 20:44:38 GMT -5
Wonder Woman. A fascinating case study in creating a character for all the right reasons, immediately introducing pervasive elements that degrade the character, successfully re-inventing the character, and then pitching all of that into the bin. The first thirty years of Wonder Woman play out far differently than her male contemporaries, Superman and Batman, the only other characters to enjoy uninterrupted publication through the modern era. It's a staggering achievement, but it seems that she is still today defined more by the "Woman" than the "Wonder." Why is that? Define "degrade," please. Didn't mean it as a slight, but to degrade is to treat with contempt or disrespect, and it would be hard to argue that Wonder Woman escaped that treatment in her earliest incarnation. She so impressed the members of the Justice Society that they deigned bestow upon her the esteemed title of:
Yup, secretary.
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Post by Jesse on Oct 3, 2014 11:34:31 GMT -5
Wonder Woman #34 Terry Dodson selfie variant and original pencils.
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Post by Dr. Poison on Oct 3, 2014 11:44:44 GMT -5
My favorite run of Wonder Woman was by Phil Jimenez. He showcased the various aspects of who Diana is: superhero, daughter, ambassador, sister, friend, leader, etc. He also utilized the combination of mythology and super heroics very well. We got to see more Wonder-rogues in his run than any other since Crisis(with the exception of the cameos in Heinberg's run): Cheetah, Giganta, Dr. Poison, Queen Clea, Zara, Hypnota, Armegeddon, Angle Man, Silver Swan, Circe, etc. I loved how Phil incorporated Donna Troy and Fury heavily into his run.
My least favorite run is the current one by Azzarello. It comes across as very dark, sexist, and offensive to what Wonder Woman was created to be about. Thank Zeus it's over with later this month. In my 30+ years of reading comics, I've never been so disgusted with a book.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2014 14:10:47 GMT -5
My favorite run of Wonder Woman was by Phil Jimenez. He showcased the various aspects of who Diana is: superhero, daughter, ambassador, sister, friend, leader, etc. He also utilized the combination of mythology and super heroics very well. We got to see more Wonder-rogues in his run than any other since Crisis(with the exception of the cameos in Heinberg's run): Cheetah, Giganta, Dr. Poison, Queen Clea, Zara, Hypnota, Armegeddon, Angle Man, Silver Swan, Circe, etc. I loved how Phil incorporated Donna Troy and Fury heavily into his run. My least favorite run is the current one by Azzarello. It comes across as very dark, sexist, and offensive to what Wonder Woman was created to be about. Thank Zeus it's over with later this month. In my 30+ years of reading comics, I've never been so disgusted with a book. Phil Jimenez Wonder WomanPhil does a wonderful job with Wonder Woman and I just can't stand Brian Azzarello. And, looking forward seeing Finches taking over ... If they did just a grand job as Phil - I will be a happy man. David Finch Wonder Woman
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Post by gothos on Oct 4, 2014 14:59:22 GMT -5
Define "degrade," please. Didn't mean it as a slight, but to degrade is to treat with contempt or disrespect, and it would be hard to argue that Wonder Woman escaped that treatment in her earliest incarnation. She so impressed the members of the Justice Society that they deigned bestow upon her the esteemed title of:
Yup, secretary.
The status of WW as JSA secretary is one of those curiosities that may never be adequately explained. To the extent that I thought about it, I too probably would have regarded the relegation as sexism. However, in recent years I've tended to think that it looks more like a business maneuver than the degradation of a character who was making a lot of money for DC Comics. I'll admit straight out that no DC employee, to my knowledge, has ever commented publicly on the fine points of contractural interactions between DC and William Marston, one of the few comics-creators who managed to get a contract with DC. All that has leaked down to fans is that DC was supposed to keep the character in print in order to maintain their right to publish the character. I think these days DC owns the character outright, but 'twas not always so. The theory has been advanced-- I don't know who came up with it first-- that Marston might have responsible for limiting WW's participation in the JSA, except in those instances where Marston and Peter were called upon to contribute a story. Most of the creators who worked for Golden Age DC didn't sign contracts and had no control over when or where their creations were used. Marston was an exception, and it's possible that, while he didn't mind if WW sat around in the JSA meeting room-- since that might in theory coax a few readers to check out the ongoing WW features-- the good doctor may have nixed the idea of WW being active in the group unless he Marston and his favored artist made some folding-green from it. It's a highly speculative theory, I confess. But remember that to DC Comics, the primary function of the JSA was to persuade readers to purchase other DC features over the competition.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2014 15:32:47 GMT -5
According Wikipedia - Wonder Woman became a full time (JSA) member in All-Star Comics #13 From Wikipedia in Italic ...All Star Comics #8 (Dec. 1941-Jan. 1942) featured the first appearance of Wonder Woman. Unlike the other characters who had their own titles, she was allowed to appear in the series, but only as the JSA's secretary from #11 onwards, and did not actively take part in most adventures until much later in the series. She was excluded from the title due to the same rules that had excluded the Flash, Green Lantern, Superman, and Batman from the title, though in #13 it was claimed she had become an active member.(Dec. 1941-Jan. 1942) is incorrect it's supposed to be read (Oct. 1941-Nov. 1941) ... here's the Cover Below The team's second female member, Black Canary, first helped the group in All Star Comics #38 and became a full member in #41 She is not on the Cover. It was All-Star Comics #41 of which it was an landmark comic because it's featured two female Superheroes on the Cover for Justice Society of America for the 1st time. Of which I have a re-print of that book and it's a favorite of mine.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 4, 2014 15:44:59 GMT -5
Keep in mind that Wonder Woman was an All-American character. Looking at the Roll Call with Wonder Woman as Secretary, the line-up was still evenly split between All-American and DC/National characters. Making WW a full member would have changed the balance. There's every possibility this was a business/editorial decision.
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Post by Phil Maurice on Oct 4, 2014 15:56:04 GMT -5
Keep in mind that Wonder Woman was an All-American character. Looking at the Roll Call with Wonder Woman as Secretary, the line-up was still evenly split between All-American and DC/National characters. Making WW a full member would have changed the balance. There's every possibility this was a business/editorial decision. Slam, I love you buddy. But, c'mon. Would The Spectre have been designated "secretary" just because it would have caused an "imbalance?" How about The Batman? I get that we shouldn't judge the past by modern standards, and again I am not slighting these decisions or the people that made them, but let's not sugar-coat it.
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Post by Phil Maurice on Oct 4, 2014 16:16:28 GMT -5
According Wikipedia - Wonder Woman became a full time (JSA) member in All-Star Comics #13 Thank you, Doctor Fate. Your post is well researched and well-taken. That the course correction took five months speaks volumes about the unexpected impact of the Maid of Might.
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Post by gothos on Oct 4, 2014 16:49:05 GMT -5
Keep in mind that Wonder Woman was an All-American character. Looking at the Roll Call with Wonder Woman as Secretary, the line-up was still evenly split between All-American and DC/National characters. Making WW a full member would have changed the balance. There's every possibility this was a business/editorial decision. Slam, I love you buddy. But, c'mon. Would The Spectre have been designated "secretary" just because it would have caused an "imbalance?" How about The Batman? I get that we shouldn't judge the past by modern standards, and again I am not slighting these decisions or the people that made them, but let's not sugar-coat it.
So I take it that you don't credence the idea that Marston was exerting influence to keep WW on the sidelines? I don't plan to argue the point further. I just want to establish the substance of our disagreement on the subject.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 4, 2014 17:04:41 GMT -5
Keep in mind that Wonder Woman was an All-American character. Looking at the Roll Call with Wonder Woman as Secretary, the line-up was still evenly split between All-American and DC/National characters. Making WW a full member would have changed the balance. There's every possibility this was a business/editorial decision. Slam, I love you buddy. But, c'mon. Would The Spectre have been designated "secretary" just because it would have caused an "imbalance?" How about The Batman? I get that we shouldn't judge the past by modern standards, and again I am not slighting these decisions or the people that made them, but let's not sugar-coat it.
Maybe not. But by the rules of the game at the time, one of the All-American heroes would have had to depart in order for WW to join the team as a full member. The JSA started out as a joint venture between two asked but separate companies. There really were business considerations at that point.
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Post by Dr. Poison on Oct 4, 2014 21:18:34 GMT -5
Didn't mean it as a slight, but to degrade is to treat with contempt or disrespect, and it would be hard to argue that Wonder Woman escaped that treatment in her earliest incarnation. She so impressed the members of the Justice Society that they deigned bestow upon her the esteemed title of:
Yup, secretary.
The status of WW as JSA secretary is one of those curiosities that may never be adequately explained. To the extent that I thought about it, I too probably would have regarded the relegation as sexism. However, in recent years I've tended to think that it looks more like a business maneuver than the degradation of a character who was making a lot of money for DC Comics. I'll admit straight out that no DC employee, to my knowledge, has ever commented publicly on the fine points of contractural interactions between DC and William Marston, one of the few comics-creators who managed to get a contract with DC. All that has leaked down to fans is that DC was supposed to keep the character in print in order to maintain their right to publish the character. I think these days DC owns the character outright, but 'twas not always so. The theory has been advanced-- I don't know who came up with it first-- that Marston might have responsible for limiting WW's participation in the JSA, except in those instances where Marston and Peter were called upon to contribute a story. Most of the creators who worked for Golden Age DC didn't sign contracts and had no control over when or where their creations were used. Marston was an exception, and it's possible that, while he didn't mind if WW sat around in the JSA meeting room-- since that might in theory coax a few readers to check out the ongoing WW features-- the good doctor may have nixed the idea of WW being active in the group unless he Marston and his favored artist made some folding-green from it. It's a highly speculative theory, I confess. But remember that to DC Comics, the primary function of the JSA was to persuade readers to purchase other DC features over the competition. A few comments on this. I've spoken with Christie Marston(William's granddaughter) and she confirmed to me about 6 months ago that the deal that DC has to publish Wonder Woman at least 4 times per year is still in place. As for Wonder Woman's status in the JSA, William was outraged when he found out WW would only be the team's secretary. He wanted her to be a full-blown member.
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Post by Phil Maurice on Oct 4, 2014 22:16:38 GMT -5
A few comments on this. I've spoken with Christie Marston(William's granddaughter) and she confirmed to me about 6 months ago that the deal that DC has to publish Wonder Woman at least 4 times per year is still in place. As for Wonder Woman's status in the JSA, William was outraged when he found out WW would only be the team's secretary. He wanted her to be a full-blown member.Great insight, Dr. Poison. I suspected that was the case; just didn't have the evidence.
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