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Post by Nowhere Man on Jan 28, 2016 21:20:38 GMT -5
According to Shooter, Epic barely made a profit, but Shooter was never fully behind Epic from what I've read on the subject. Seems like Archie Goodwin was the brains behind it and the soul person most responsible for its success. I agree that Epic probably did pave the way for DC's Vertigo in a lot of ways and that Marvel dropped the ball on Epic and particularly holding on to license like Star Wars and Conan.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jan 28, 2016 21:32:12 GMT -5
Hey, I reallly like a lot of what Marvel's doing right now. I mean, I do fundamentally like superheroes a lot, and Marvel's putting out a good half-dozen or so JLI style *nods at Shaxper* "light" superhero books that are writer/artist not editor/marketing suit driven. I know I ALWAYS say this, but I love what Soule and that other guy are doing with the Inhumans. I mostly like what Soule is doing, but yeah. Is Hickman off all the things now? Or is that nightmare still going on? I'm not...actuallly.... all that current. I really thought you knew more about this than I do! I do check the new graphic novels at the library 2-3 times a week, and the Iowa City Library is amazing - but I'm generally about a year behind. I don't think Hickman is writing anything for Marvel right now? (I never read his Avengers because you guys told me not too. I like East of West a lot.) But I've really enjoyed: Squirrel Girl**, Ms. Marvel**, Mighty Avengers*, Silver Surfer**, She-Hulk*, Daredevil*, Hawkeye* and whatever Jason Aaron's writing at any given time*. * The most recent versions of these that have come through the library. Not always the newest. They haven't got any Daredevil in a while. I'm pretty sure I am two or three relaunched behind. They also haven't got the TV show. ** Squirrel Girl I buy in singles because I like the letter page. ** Silver Surfer and Ms. Marvel I buy in trades, but I'm not caught up on Ms. Marvel. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2016 21:41:44 GMT -5
I know I ALWAYS say this, but I love what Soule and that other guy are doing with the Inhumans. I mostly like what Soule is doing, but yeah. Is Hickman off all the things now? Or is that nightmare still going on? I'm not...actuallly.... all that current. I really thought you knew more about this than I do! I do check the new graphic novels at the library 2-3 times a week, and the Iowa City Library is amazing - but I'm generally about a year behind. I don't think Hickman is writing anything for Marvel right now? (I never read his Avengers because you guys told me not too. I like East of West a lot.) But I've really enjoyed: Squirrel Girl**, Ms. Marvel**, Mighty Avengers*, Silver Surfer**, She-Hulk*, Daredevil*, Hawkeye* and whatever Jason Aaron's writing at any given time*. * The most recent versions of these that have come through the library. Not always the newest. They haven't got any Daredevil in a while. I'm pretty sure I am two or three relaunched behind. They also haven't got the TV show. ** Squirrel Girl I buy in singles because I like the letter page. ** Silver Surfer and Ms. Marvel I buy in trades, but I'm not caught up on Ms. Marvel. Man! I need to get caught up on Ms. Marvel!!! I read the first trade, got hooked but distracted, and meant to read current books, but got distracted again. I'm just going to buy the trades or HCs (preferably HCs, if they exist). Is Silver Surfer awesome??? And I have no idea who is writing Avengers now. Hickman turned me off from them so much that I gave up. I haven't even read Namor's death in Squadron Supreme (BS that Marvel is pushing). And I refuse to. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2016 22:44:08 GMT -5
Considering how much I've enjoyed their Star Wars line in the last year, my message to Marvel is FLOOD BABY FLOOD!  I dunno, like anyone wants to see Maz Kanata get her own book   |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2016 22:56:33 GMT -5
Considering how much I've enjoyed their Star Wars line in the last year, my message to Marvel is FLOOD BABY FLOOD! I dunno, like anyone wants to see Maz Kanata get her own book If there was an interesting story to tell with her I would....and therer seems to be a pretty compelling backstory to tell with her. An ongoing, probably not, but a mini or an OGN telling that interesting back story, sure I'd be up for that. -M |
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jan 29, 2016 0:18:20 GMT -5
Marvel would be wise to flood the market with Star Wars titles, particularly titles based on the Ewoks and Jawas. When you come right down to it, they're the most interesting aspect of Star Wars. I'll fight anyone who disagrees. I have spoken and I remain Unconquered.
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Post by berkley on Jan 29, 2016 1:09:57 GMT -5
Hey, I reallly like a lot of what Marvel's doing right now. I mean, I do fundamentally like superheroes a lot, and Marvel's putting out a good half-dozen or so JLI style *nods at Shaxper* "light" superhero books that are writer/artist not editor/marketing suit driven. I know I ALWAYS say this, but I love what Soule and that other guy are doing with the Inhumans. I mostly like what Soule is doing, but yeah. Is Hickman off all the things now? Or is that nightmare still going on? What is being done with the Inhumans right now? I have a negative impression that they've moved away from the basic idea that made me like them in the first place - the outsiders (to humanity) with their own culture and history, the royal family, the clan dynamic, etc - and turned it into a much more vague idea that anyone might be an Inhuman, which usually means we get various incarnations of the American everyman/boy. I do plan to read Ellis's Karnak series once it's collected, though. |
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Post by tingramretro on Jan 29, 2016 3:07:11 GMT -5
Martin Goodman was out of the picture by the early 70's, so unless we're just talking about the 60's, I don't see the point. Marvel and DC are flooding the market with superfluous crap in a way that they never did in the past. The thrust of my point is that Marvel, during their height in the 80's, weren't releasing nearly as many books nor were they obsessed with milking every hot property to exhaustion. There seemed to be a balance between licensed properties, a kids line, Epic, the mainstream stuff, etc. Just take a look at this checklist from 1987 (granted Marvel was in a decline at this point) and compare it to today. Do you see twenty variations of Avengers titles? Spider-Man is the only thing close to saturation, but even then, this selection pales to the glut we see today. What I see is that Marvel had 62 comics on the stands that month. Looking at the solicits for January of 2016...I see about the same number of books. Was there more variety then? Yes. But there also wasn't Dark Horse and Dynamite and Boom and IDW and a dozen other companies that were competing for the licensed properties. The Epic Line had a lot less competition for creator-owned titles. Comics hadn't yet been completely ghettoized into comic book shops. The Star Comics line was an attempt to grab the Harvey market...when Harvey died and most of the line didn't last a year. My point is that Marvel, in particular, DC to a lesser extent, has always flooded the market in an attempt to get shelf space. And it continued as a culture for the company well past when Goodman left. You can look at all the reprint titles that constantly flooded the stands in the 70s. Nobody was clamoring for reprints of The Ringo Kid in 1975-76. But they published the book for rack space in hopes of pushing other books off the racks. Dark Horse were around in 1986, in fact, along with Eclipse, Comico, First Comics and Aardvark-Vanaheim, amongst quite a few others. |
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Post by tingramretro on Jan 29, 2016 3:10:58 GMT -5
What I see is that Marvel had 62 comics on the stands that month. Looking at the solicits for January of 2016...I see about the same number of books. Was there more variety then? Yes. But there also wasn't Dark Horse and Dynamite and Boom and IDW and a dozen other companies that were competing for the licensed properties. The Epic Line had a lot less competition for creator-owned titles. Comics hadn't yet been completely ghettoized into comic book shops. The Star Comics line was an attempt to grab the Harvey market...when Harvey died and most of the line didn't last a year. My point is that Marvel, in particular, DC to a lesser extent, has always flooded the market in an attempt to get shelf space. And it continued as a culture for the company well past when Goodman left. You can look at all the reprint titles that constantly flooded the stands in the 70s. Nobody was clamoring for reprints of The Ringo Kid in 1975-76. But they published the book for rack space in hopes of pushing other books off the racks. That's all true, but when you factor in variants, limited series, etc., I'm sure the number of titles inflates beyond what's seen in that checklist. Obviously if you only focus on the core titles, it shrinks even further. This was of course right at the end of Shooter's tenure and featured his Marvel at its most bloated. Back in 1975-76, Marvel was basically only trying to push DC off the racks since that was the only real competition. When you focus that practice down to specialty shops, and factor in that there are far more publishers publishing comics nowadays, things look a bit more cutthroat to me. Basically, there wasn't an Image, or even a Dark Horse, back in 1975 that had any kind of potential to compete with the Big Two. Marvel won't even play nice and do crossovers anymore. I agree that they've always been ruthless, I'm just stating that I feel that they're even more so today. There were no variants or limited series' not on the checklist. The checklist was always complete, and there was no such thing as a variant, as far as I can recall, in 1986. |
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jan 29, 2016 7:03:34 GMT -5
That's all true, but when you factor in variants, limited series, etc., I'm sure the number of titles inflates beyond what's seen in that checklist. Obviously if you only focus on the core titles, it shrinks even further. This was of course right at the end of Shooter's tenure and featured his Marvel at its most bloated. Back in 1975-76, Marvel was basically only trying to push DC off the racks since that was the only real competition. When you focus that practice down to specialty shops, and factor in that there are far more publishers publishing comics nowadays, things look a bit more cutthroat to me. Basically, there wasn't an Image, or even a Dark Horse, back in 1975 that had any kind of potential to compete with the Big Two. Marvel won't even play nice and do crossovers anymore. I agree that they've always been ruthless, I'm just stating that I feel that they're even more so today. There were no variants or limited series' not on the checklist. The checklist was always complete, and there was no such thing as a variant, as far as I can recall, in 1986. You misunderstood me. I was of course talking about modern publishing with the talk of variants. Sorry, I worded in an odd way. |
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Post by MDG on Jan 29, 2016 9:16:39 GMT -5
DC and Marvel should put out monthly anthologies, aimed at younger readers, that could be sold with magazines in Target, Wal-Mart, and other mass-market stores. Each could be anchored by a main character/team, but also have stories with lesser-known characters. Even at $9.99, it would be cheaper than a trip to the comic shop for parents w/ younger kids.
They should also purposefully write for "readers," not "fans"--minimal references to continuity, main stories done in one, subplots that get resolved, fun. And don't fall into the trap of padding with puzzle pages or features about the stars of the TV shows.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2016 11:37:18 GMT -5
DC and Marvel should put out monthly anthologies, aimed at younger readers, that could be sold with magazines in Target, Wal-Mart, and other mass-market stores. Each could be anchored by a main character/team, but also have stories with lesser-known characters. Even at $9.99, it would be cheaper than a trip to the comic shop for parents w/ younger kids. They should also purposefully write for "readers," not "fans"--minimal references to continuity, main stories done in one, subplots that get resolved, fun. And don't fall into the trap of padding with puzzle pages or features about the stars of the TV shows. Personally, if I were DC this is what I would use titles like Action Comics (Superman themed anthology), Detective Comics (Batman themed anthology), Sensation Comics (Wonder Woman themed anthology), Showcase (Flash & Green Lantern focused anthology), and Brave & Bold (JLA themed anthology w/ other team up stories) for, putting out big books of reader friendly general audience material available in the general marketplace. You can still have Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman etc. titles monthly telling longer format stories as well available digitally and in the direct market. If I were Marvel, I would follow suit with Marvel Tales (Spider-Man themed anthology), Tales of Suspense (Cap & Iron Man themed anthology), Tales to Astonish (Hulk & Ant-Man themed), Strange Tales (Dr. Strange & SHIELD themed stories), and an Avengers Assemble anthology available in similar format and retail outlets. Put stories featuring characters now familiar to the general audiences due to movies and tv in reader friendly all ages complete stories in an affordable and accessible format ($10 price point as MDG said-it's on par with what most slick magazines cost on the newsstands or a paperback novel, the cost of a action figure or what not so not unreasonable in the mass market-and put in places where people are-Wal*Mart, Target, major supermarket chains, etc. You can still tell longer form, more shared sandbox stories if you feel the need, but get something out there that appeals to the mass audience and in a format that works with the general audience. With the longer form stuff (the Batman, Superman, Amazing Spider-Man etc.) I would look at moving to a season format-let's say you go bi-weekly, tell 2 major arcs in each season with something tying the 2 together, with a few single issue stories in between arcs so each season is approximately 24 issues with the first major arc wrapping up in issue 12 with a mid-season finale type deal-have a plots and b plots etc. traditional serial stories use, with maybe a C plot that simmers throughout and leads into the next season... Have a single writer and an art team-a main artist for each arc and a third artist who does the done in one issues. so that each story beginning to end has a consistent look and the entire season has a consistent voice. When the mid-season finale is released, have a trade ready to go Avengers Season One Pt. 1 collecting 1-12, so anyone missing out or trade waiting can jump on then. When the season is over, start over with Season #2, a new #1 and same deal-but seasons can then build on each other a little bit because you have previous seasons available in trades. You can have continued stories, shared sandbox continuity, etc. but do it in a way that works in the current marketplace with modern audiences, but also have product that is meant to grow the audience and bring new customers into the fold. These characters are experiencing nearly unprecedented popularity (at least more popularity since the days of the Golden Age) and awareness in the mass culture, and comics themselves have achieved an acceptance level in pop culture that is unprecedented, yet somehow the big 2 don't seem capable of capitalizing on that opportunity, mostly because they seem to be stuck in models and practices that are outdated don't resonate with current customers outside their longterm hardcore audience. They need to try something new instead of repeating the same old shit and hoping for different results. -M |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2016 12:33:50 GMT -5
You've basically just described the Panini (or whoever the successor was) line of reprint comics in the UK - all sold in newsagents
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Post by tingramretro on Jan 29, 2016 12:45:17 GMT -5
You've basically just described the Panini (or whoever the successor was) line of reprint comics in the UK - all sold in newsagents That's what I was going to say. And the Titan line of DC reprints. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2016 15:50:17 GMT -5
You've basically just described the Panini (or whoever the successor was) line of reprint comics in the UK - all sold in newsagents You've basically just described the Panini (or whoever the successor was) line of reprint comics in the UK - all sold in newsagents That's what I was going to say. And the Titan line of DC reprints. Unfortunately there is nothing like this in the American market... -M |
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