|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2016 13:50:46 GMT -5
Yes, but I'm talking about a relative HIT for Image. Marvel and DC both have more overhead but they also have vastly greater resources compared to Image, so from my perspective, it's a wash. They choose not to support those critically acclaimed Image level books (they have had a few) when they could if they wanted to. It also gets down to the specifics of why Marvel cancels certain series. Do they cancel comics that are eking out a slight profit but aren't meeting my "nebulous" expectations? Or do they only cancel titles that are flat out losing money? Marvel pays a page rate to creators. Image does not. Creators are paid out of the back end based on sales. Therein lies a huge cost differential. Which means Marvel literally cannot break even on a book that sells in numbers that are a hit for Image. As for why Image books keep getting optioned-maybe because they are doing fresh ideas and not regurgitating the same stories sand characters they were 30 years ago like the big 2 are...studios are always looking for new and fresh because they have enough of their own stale remakes to last several lifetimes without having to pay comic companies for their stale products. -M
|
|
|
Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 28, 2016 14:02:54 GMT -5
If kids aren't reading Big Two comics it's not because they don't know about the characters. Walk into any toy store or big retailer and you'll find a bazillion Batman and Marvel Hero toys. Clearly they are seeing Marvel Super-heroes in the theaters. They're also seeing DC and Marvel heroes on TV. And walk into any kids section of a book store and you'll find a ton of children's books with super-heroes.
Diary of a Wimpy Kid sells. So did Bone. But a lot of those sales are through alternative means. Bone sold huge through Scholastic Book Sales.
My Grandson is 8 and is a nut for Super-heroes. I bought him Batman: The War Years for Christmas. But what he really can't read are Comic Books. Because they aren't available. And most of the superhero comics aren't appropriate for his age anyway. He does, however, have access to an IPad. And if the price was right that would be a great forum for him to read comics, just like he does a ton of other stuff on it.
The Big Two are selling to their captive audience who are rapidly aging and are going to start dying off. Their business model is fatally flawed.
|
|
|
Post by Warmonger on Jan 28, 2016 14:06:31 GMT -5
]Sure, they now offer comics digitally...but it's mostly the same demographic that is buying them....us. I think the answer is simple why kids aren't really buying comics anymore...they just aren't into them anymore. If I was growing up today, I'm not sure if I even would've discovered them. It's become a pain in the balls to even locate a comic shop in most cities. Nevermind being able to walk into the local grocery store and find the latest comics. I haven't seen that in almost 20 years. Hell, the influx of Marvel & DC movie/TV adaptations is really the only thing keeping a lot of these characters from being totally irrelevant to the modern general public. You're restating the problem Stephenson is trying to address and I have highlighted-the problem is not comics-or characters, it is format and availability. Comic material is perennial best sellers among children's books-look at the Big Nat estuff or Diary of a Wimpy Kid...they sell well in comic format to younger readers-but they are not monthly installments of (as SPike X put it) super-hero continuity porn. Kids books featuring Marvel and DC characters are ubiquitous now-comics not so much because comic shops and monthly comics are dinosaurs and stories told to accommodate that model do not work for audiences in 2016. That's what needs to change. The problem isn't comics or super-heroes-it's the formats and accessibility of it, and the adherence to a product model that doesn't sell to what audiences in 2016 want. They want exciting super-hero stories as the success in other formats show, and they want comics as comic material sells well, just not the way the big 2 produces, packages and sells it. The big 2 need to change to fit the current market, not cling to a dinosaur product model and publishing plan to please a small and shrinking number of hardcore fans who won't let go of the past. Part of what is crippling digital is the insistence to keep pricing on the level of comic shops so as not to undercut the direct market on day of release sales-it puts comics themselves out of whack with pricing structures of other digital entertainment content. It's that way to appease the old guard instead of doing what is needed and business smart to grow the market for comics beyond the niche it has devolved into. Instead of waving his hands and saying, it sucks and it's not like it was when I was growing up and becoming a fan, Stephenson is looking at the realities of the current market and trying to find ways to grow business and find new readers and markets. Finding solutions instead of making excuses. -M I mean, he can talk about it all he wants and the Big 2 can start implementing these changes tomorrow...but I still don't see it changing much. Kids simply aren't into this stuff like they were 25+ years ago and the majority of adults look down on the entire medium, seeing it as nothing more than silly child's play. Add in the fact that comic shops are extremely scarce and I'm not seeing some kind of boom on the horizon.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2016 14:18:29 GMT -5
If kids aren't reading Big Two comics it's not because they don't know about the characters. Walk into any toy store or big retailer and you'll find a bazillion Batman and Marvel Hero toys. Clearly they are seeing Marvel Super-heroes in the theaters. They're also seeing DC and Marvel heroes on TV. And walk into any kids section of a book store and you'll find a ton of children's books with super-heroes. Diary of a Wimpy Kid sells. So did Bone. But a lot of those sales are through alternative means. Bone sold huge through Scholastic Book Sales. My Grandson is 8 and is a nut for Super-heroes. I bought him Batman: The War Years for Christmas. But what he really can't read are Comic Books. Because they aren't available. And most of the superhero comics aren't appropriate for his age anyway. He does, however, have access to an IPad. And if the price was right that would be a great forum for him to read comics, just like he does a ton of other stuff on it. The Big Two are selling to their captive audience who are rapidly aging and are going to start dying off. Their business model is fatally flawed. You're restating the problem Stephenson is trying to address and I have highlighted-the problem is not comics-or characters, it is format and availability. Comic material is perennial best sellers among children's books-look at the Big Nat estuff or Diary of a Wimpy Kid...they sell well in comic format to younger readers-but they are not monthly installments of (as SPike X put it) super-hero continuity porn. Kids books featuring Marvel and DC characters are ubiquitous now-comics not so much because comic shops and monthly comics are dinosaurs and stories told to accommodate that model do not work for audiences in 2016. That's what needs to change. The problem isn't comics or super-heroes-it's the formats and accessibility of it, and the adherence to a product model that doesn't sell to what audiences in 2016 want. They want exciting super-hero stories as the success in other formats show, and they want comics as comic material sells well, just not the way the big 2 produces, packages and sells it. The big 2 need to change to fit the current market, not cling to a dinosaur product model and publishing plan to please a small and shrinking number of hardcore fans who won't let go of the past. Part of what is crippling digital is the insistence to keep pricing on the level of comic shops so as not to undercut the direct market on day of release sales-it puts comics themselves out of whack with pricing structures of other digital entertainment content. It's that way to appease the old guard instead of doing what is needed and business smart to grow the market for comics beyond the niche it has devolved into. Instead of waving his hands and saying, it sucks and it's not like it was when I was growing up and becoming a fan, Stephenson is looking at the realities of the current market and trying to find ways to grow business and find new readers and markets. Finding solutions instead of making excuses. -M I mean, he can talk about it all he wants and the Big 2 can start implementing these changes tomorrow...but I still don't see it changing much. Kids simply aren't into this stuff like they were 25+ years ago and the majority of adults look down on the entire medium, seeing it as nothing more than silly child's play. Add in the fact that comic shops are extremely scarce and I'm not seeing some kind of boom on the horizon. Yes, kids are into it as much as they were 25 years ago, probably more so considering the among of super-hero merchandise and programming that is readily available to them that wasn't 25 years ago. And comic shops are part of the problem, not the solution. Comics need to be available wehere people are, not a niche destination product. But it seems you think Stephenson and the industry should just throw in the towel because things have changed and it will never be the way it used to...maybe TV and movies should have too instead of adapting with the times and continuing to be viable entertainment models, because I mean it's just not the same that I can't get all my shows off of 3 broadcast networks and my only option for home viewing of movies is to subscribe to HBO or pay upwards of $40 for VHS copies of movies...I mean it's not the way it was ehn I grew up and kids have other options so why should they even try to compete right? -M
|
|
|
Post by Nowhere Man on Jan 28, 2016 14:19:52 GMT -5
Yes, but I'm talking about a relative HIT for Image. Marvel and DC both have more overhead but they also have vastly greater resources compared to Image, so from my perspective, it's a wash. They choose not to support those critically acclaimed Image level books (they have had a few) when they could if they wanted to. It also gets down to the specifics of why Marvel cancels certain series. Do they cancel comics that are eking out a slight profit but aren't meeting my "nebulous" expectations? Or do they only cancel titles that are flat out losing money? Marvel pays a page rate to creators. Image does not. Creators are paid out of the back end based on sales. Therein lies a huge cost differential. Which means Marvel literally cannot break even on a book that sells in numbers that are a hit for Image. As for why Image books keep getting optioned-maybe because they are doing fresh ideas and not regurgitating the same stories sand characters they were 30 years ago like the big 2 are...studios are always looking for new and fresh because they have enough of their own stale remakes to last several lifetimes without having to pay comic companies for their stale products. -M If a comic is poor, with no buzz and isn't breaking even, I think Marvel is wise to cancel it. But what if it is critically acclaimed and has a loyal fanbase and just hits cancelation level at issue 8? That's the issue I have. Marvel is going to be on the side of the road with a sign if they give the series another arc to see if turns around? Also, are we sure that Marvel only cancels titles that don't break even? That's a point I'd like cleared up for me personally.
|
|
|
Post by Warmonger on Jan 28, 2016 14:25:25 GMT -5
If kids aren't reading Big Two comics it's not because they don't know about the characters. Walk into any toy store or big retailer and you'll find a bazillion Batman and Marvel Hero toys. Clearly they are seeing Marvel Super-heroes in the theaters. They're also seeing DC and Marvel heroes on TV. And walk into any kids section of a book store and you'll find a ton of children's books with super-heroes. Diary of a Wimpy Kid sells. So did Bone. But a lot of those sales are through alternative means. Bone sold huge through Scholastic Book Sales. My Grandson is 8 and is a nut for Super-heroes. I bought him Batman: The War Years for Christmas. But what he really can't read are Comic Books. Because they aren't available. And most of the superhero comics aren't appropriate for his age anyway. He does, however, have access to an IPad. And if the price was right that would be a great forum for him to read comics, just like he does a ton of other stuff on it. The Big Two are selling to their captive audience who are rapidly aging and are going to start dying off. Their business model is fatally flawed. I mean, he can talk about it all he wants and the Big 2 can start implementing these changes tomorrow...but I still don't see it changing much. Kids simply aren't into this stuff like they were 25+ years ago and the majority of adults look down on the entire medium, seeing it as nothing more than silly child's play. Add in the fact that comic shops are extremely scarce and I'm not seeing some kind of boom on the horizon. Yes, kids are into it as much as they were 25 years ago, probably more so considering the among of super-hero merchandise and programming that is readily available to them that wasn't 25 years ago. And comic shops are part of the problem, not the solution. Comics need to be available wehere people are, not a niche destination product. But it seems you think Stephenson and the industry should just throw in the towel because things have changed and it will never be the way it used to...maybe TV and movies should have too instead of adapting with the times and continuing to be viable entertainment models, because I mean it's just not the same that I can't get all my shows off of 3 broadcast networks and my only option for home viewing of movies is to subscribe to HBO or pay upwards of $40 for VHS copies of movies...I mean it's not the way it was ehn I grew up and kids have other options so why should they even try to compete right? -M Not sure why you're getting pissy... I'm just going by what I've observed. Kids don't care much about reading during a day and age populated with smart phones, iPad's and PS4's. I mean, how is that even debatable? And yeah, I suppose if comics start flooding your local Wal-Mart, grocery store, etc then they would be more accessible and more people would buy them...but when exactly does anyone see this happening?
|
|
|
Post by Action Ace on Jan 28, 2016 14:29:21 GMT -5
Kids love comics, but they seem to be into some sort of hybrid comic BOOK these days: Diary of a Wimpy Kid, Dork Diaries, Jedi Academy, Big Nate and whatever Raina Telgemeier is doing. At my local Barnes & Noble yesterday I even saw something called Study Hall of Justice in the #3 kids bestseller slot. It's like the others in that it's a combination of text and comics and the DC heroes are reset into a school environment. Dustin Nguyen does the art in black & white. Does anyone think that Gotham Academy might have been better off in this format? If I was a 4/5 year old kid these days and I liked superheroes I'd be getting into them $4 and $5 at a time, but it would with those Little Golden Books and beginning reader books. You even have a choice, Super Friends look or LEGO style. Bottom line---Kids LOVE comics.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2016 14:31:21 GMT -5
Marvel pays a page rate to creators. Image does not. Creators are paid out of the back end based on sales. Therein lies a huge cost differential. Which means Marvel literally cannot break even on a book that sells in numbers that are a hit for Image. As for why Image books keep getting optioned-maybe because they are doing fresh ideas and not regurgitating the same stories sand characters they were 30 years ago like the big 2 are...studios are always looking for new and fresh because they have enough of their own stale remakes to last several lifetimes without having to pay comic companies for their stale products. -M If a comic is poor, with no buzz and isn't breaking even, I think Marvel is wise to cancel it. But what if it is critically acclaimed and has a loyal fanbase and just hits cancelation level at issue 8? That's the issue I have. Marvel is going to be on the side of the road with a sign if they give the series another arc to see if turns around? Also, are we sure that Marvel only cancels titles that don't break even? That's a point I'd like cleared up for me personally. Should they continue to throw good money after bad. With 8 issues they can see how fast the sales attrition rate is. If they are dropping 10%, 20% or more in sales with each successive issue (which is average per issue drop on most ongoing titles these days) despite critical buzz and initial orders for the first collection have come in (it was likely listed on Amazon and other places after issue 6 hit) and don't show any signs it will get a growth surge on the trade release, why keep it going? It will not see any growth but a slow, staeady attrition despite critical acclaim and word of mouth. If you haven't seen growth is 8 months, you are not going to no matter how much critical acclaim there is. Should you dump more money on marketing to try to halt attrition (you won't actually achieve growth though) so spend money to lose less than you would, that makes sense for a book. Or launch another book that has a chance to capture some audience and will at least give better numbers early on than the cancelled book would have if it kept going? How do you justify to your shareholders continuing a product that is losing money or making less than another product would? With Image, a creator can decide to pony up their own money to keep a book afloat to see if it catches on if it gets buzz but not sales, but usually it get cancelled when the creators themselves decide they are not making enough to keep it going, or if Image isn't making anything back on putting the book out. No shareholders to answer to, no other in house properties to give a try instead, etc. Comparing the publishing plan of Image and Marvel vis-a-vis cancellation and sustainability is comparing apples and oranges. It's like comparing a local franchise business with a large corporation. Sustainable levels of sales and cost structures are radically different because they are different businesses even if they both operate in the same field. -M
|
|
|
Post by Nowhere Man on Jan 28, 2016 14:51:20 GMT -5
If a comic is poor, with no buzz and isn't breaking even, I think Marvel is wise to cancel it. But what if it is critically acclaimed and has a loyal fanbase and just hits cancelation level at issue 8? That's the issue I have. Marvel is going to be on the side of the road with a sign if they give the series another arc to see if turns around? Also, are we sure that Marvel only cancels titles that don't break even? That's a point I'd like cleared up for me personally. How do you justify to your shareholders continuing a product that is losing money or making less than another product would?-M I understand and pragmatically agree with all you said, but I just wanted to comment on this point here that I put in bold. This is the root of all the problems we see at Marvel and DC. I'm too idealistic so I ultimately have to bow out of these discussions, but the justification in this context is that, like it or not, you are putting out a creative, art-based product and not doorstops. I realize they don't see it in those terms, but there does seem to be enough restraint, even at Marvel and DC, to not take this mentality to its ultimate extreme. I remember in the 90's when it was rumored that Marvel was considering canceling everything but Spider-Man and X-Men.
|
|
|
Post by hondobrode on Jan 28, 2016 15:57:50 GMT -5
I'm buying tons of comics like I haven't in years on Comixology mostly, with 99.9% of them on sale @ $.99 each or so, depending on the sale.
The only exception I can think of was last year's Multiversity, which I paid full retail for as the issues were released.
Just today, I bought the entire run of Lucifer, the Metabarons from Humanoids, and 3 out of the 4 graphic novels Delcourt has on sale.
The Lucifers were $ .99 each, the Metabarons $1.99 each instead of $ 5.99, and the Delcourts were all at least half off.
The future is digital. Every year Comixology grows and offers more items; sales are up. The direct market comic shop is slowly dying off.
If Amazon / Comixology can get 1% of digital non-comic readers to buy a digital comic, they'll have tripled the size of the direct market.
|
|
|
Post by Reptisaurus! on Jan 28, 2016 18:41:12 GMT -5
Yes, kids are into it as much as they were 25 years ago, probably more so considering the among of super-hero merchandise and programming that is readily available to them that wasn't 25 years ago. And comic shops are part of the problem, not the solution. Comics need to be available wehere people are, not a niche destination product. But it seems you think Stephenson and the industry should just throw in the towel because things have changed and it will never be the way it used to...maybe TV and movies should have too instead of adapting with the times and continuing to be viable entertainment models, because I mean it's just not the same that I can't get all my shows off of 3 broadcast networks and my only option for home viewing of movies is to subscribe to HBO or pay upwards of $40 for VHS copies of movies...I mean it's not the way it was ehn I grew up and kids have other options so why should they even try to compete right? -M Not sure why you're getting pissy... I'm just going by what I've observed. Kids don't care much about reading during a day and age populated with smart phones, iPad's and PS4's. I mean, how is that even debatable? And yeah, I suppose if comics start flooding your local Wal-Mart, grocery store, etc then they would be more accessible and more people would buy them...but when exactly does anyone see this happening? www.comicsbeat.com/wal-mart-may-set-up-their-own-graphic-novel-sections/From the same article " graphic novels did pretty well in 2015, with sales up 22% in bookstores." SOMEONE is still reading, I suspect some kids are still reading - When I was a school bus driver I kind of jokingly tried to ban reading on my bus because of Twilight - and the graphic novel market is - at least for now- growing in the US.
|
|
|
Post by Randle-El on Jan 28, 2016 22:42:43 GMT -5
In order for the medium of comics to stay relevant, I think at some point in the near future there needs to be a disruptive shift in the way comics are made and distributed. Some of the recurring arguments I see are:
--Superheroes and related merchandise are hotter than ever, but that doesn't seem to be translating into sales for monthly single issue comic books. --For the price and content, the single issue comics don't seem to have the same entertainment value as other media. --The direct market is too insular of a distribution channel.
I think all of this adds up to one inevitable conclusion: direct market dominated distribution of single issue monthly comics has to go the way of the dinosaur.
A lot of folks are placing bets on digital being the modern equivalent of the spinner rack as far as being able to pull in non-collectors and casual fans. I'm inclined to agree, but I also think that's a superficial evolution as it's still the same basic content, just presented on a screen.
My own observation is that the culture of entertainment has changed in the last 20 years or so. That change has not just affected comics, but comics has been the medium that is most stuck in the past. People are more heavily invested in their entertainment than they used to be. They are willing to spend more money on it, more time consuming it, and more time following it. We expect higher production values and more replayability. Movies, TV, and video games have adapted. Even print fiction has adapted -- look at how publishers are looking more and more for the next Twilight or Harry Potter series. They don't just want to put out one decent selling novel.
In the face of this, a 22-page booklet put out once a month that basically tells part of a story looks antiquated. And it is. It came of age in an era when comics were meant to be cheap, disposable entertainment. That format doesn't make sense to modern audiences. I read an article on Sketchd.com where the author tried to get a non-comics reader to try comics. One of the main take-aways was that the would-be reader thought that it felt like they were being asked to read one chapter of a book each month that gets published over the course of a year.
To me at least, it seems pretty clear that the future of comics, if it wants to grow and be more mainstream, lies in graphic novels, trades, and bookstore distribution. But more fundamentally, the publishing format needs to change. Maybe it means that instead of monthly floppies, publishers put out the annual graphic novel. I don't know. I just don't see floppies providing a sustainable future for comics given the way society's interaction with their entertainment is evolving.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2016 22:55:09 GMT -5
One of the things that has to be addressed though is the creator owned model-creators paid on the back end (i.e. the Image model) is a lot less viable unless they have monthly sales to sustain it. Writers can maintain several projects to stagger payment as different projects come out and produce revenue-artists usually are limited to 1 project at a time with rare exceptions, so have to endure long gaps between revenue streams without monthly sales. There are ways to solve this, but it does need to be addressed. Creator-owned projects and small press books currently need the influx of sales each month single issues provide in the American market. The European model has solved this, but IP ownership of properties published works on a different model there that enables their printing business model to work, US ownership practices would need to evolve more towards the way book publishers operate in the US rather than the way the comic publishers have operated.
One last thought on the direct market-I think it was a necessary evil of its time. Newsstands were fading and the industry needed some kind of life support system to sustain it through its roughest patch. But now, I think comics are on the other side and the life support system is keeping the industry bed-ridden, holding it back instead of sustaining it, and it needs to be turned off to allow the patient to get up and move on so it can fully recuperate. It's not a mercy killing, it's recognizing the patient could breathe on its own and the life support system is now a detriment to its health.
-M
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 29, 2016 0:22:08 GMT -5
My problem with Image stuff is not creatively (I agree they have some awesome stuff), but their lack of consistency in production. I'm almost at the point where I want to see the series finished before I buy it, to make sure the story actually finishes. I know that's a bit of a self-fufilling thing, but that's the way it is.
|
|
|
Post by hondobrode on Jan 29, 2016 0:47:36 GMT -5
DC has dealt with that issue for years with Vertigo.
If they depended solely on monthly figures, Jonah Hex would've been canceled years before they finally pulled the plug.
They stood behind that title for years with it teetering on cancellation levels with the internet and critical buzz very positive, hoping it would find it's audience and pulling up, with even an outstanding creative team that included Darwyn Cooke, Luke Ross, Leonardo Manco, Phil Noto, Howard Chaykin and more.
In today's distribution model, the frontline is the traditional format, then the collected format, and finally, the digital format.
Maybe later there will be another viable extension of format. Publishers recognize this and don't simply cancel a title on the premise of what the Old World monthly sales model shows.
I personally feel the monthly model is more inclined toward the traditionalist or speculator, whereas the collected edition or digital model is less for that market and more for the reader (like me, and most of what will drive growth from publishers).
As I replace my paper copies with digital duplicates, I plan to sell off the paper duplicate for what it's appreciated for, more than covering my digital cost, and in fact putting some money in my pocket, with a superior virtual reading experience.
|
|