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Post by beccabear67 on Apr 7, 2020 14:32:28 GMT -5
didn't Rolling Stones take The Verve to court over like one or two notes lifted from a song of theirs in Bittersweet Symphony? And then they apparently did it themselves with other people's music, with no credit? Resolved: www.npr.org/2019/05/23/726227555/not-bitter-just-sweet-the-rolling-stones-give-royalties-to-the-verveI've always thought it was more Andrew Oldham making the claim that it was his more than the Stones though, I might have gotten that muddled though. Oh, here it is (from the above NPR link)... the song's instrumentals leaned heavily on a version of the Stones' "The Last Time" — specifically, on an orchestral arrangement recorded in 1965 by the Andrew Oldham Orchestra, a side project from Andrew Loog Oldham, the Stones' manager and record producer, who enlisted various session musicians and arranger David Whitaker to create symphonic versions of Stones songs.
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Post by impulse on Apr 7, 2020 16:33:09 GMT -5
This pretty much my feelings on Led Zepplin. I don't know a lot of the original music that they borrowed from (and neither am I music historian either) but I do know that they did a lot of that. Maybe I have a different view of a lot of "borrowing" and sampling because I grew up in the 80's and 90's listening to rap which sampled heavily from older R&B/soul musicians whose music I did know. And in most cases liked both the original and sampling. Then there is me not knowing Ice Ice Baby was sampled from Under Pressure or Been Around the World sampled Let's Dance. Because my folks didn't listen to many of these artists and I didn't discover them until I got much older. In both cases, again I like both the original song and the sampled song. Covers however I am not so open minded about. :-) Also a side questions, since we are on the subject ... didn't Rolling Stones take The Verve to court over like one or two notes lifted from a song of theirs in Bittersweet Symphony? And then they apparently did it themselves with other people's music, with no credit? Yeah, their lack of credit was appalling, but generally, I thought they did great stuff with the material. I'm not a big pure old blues guy, but I love when the Brits fused it with that rock energy and just juiced it up. On that note, if you want to hear a real blues guy who juiced it up, Buddy Guy is amazing. Legend live.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Apr 7, 2020 16:48:28 GMT -5
didn't Rolling Stones take The Verve to court over like one or two notes lifted from a song of theirs in Bittersweet Symphony? And then they apparently did it themselves with other people's music, with no credit? Resolved: www.npr.org/2019/05/23/726227555/not-bitter-just-sweet-the-rolling-stones-give-royalties-to-the-verveI've always thought it was more Andrew Oldham making the claim that it was his more than the Stones though, I might have gotten that muddled though. Oh, here it is (from the above NPR link)... the song's instrumentals leaned heavily on a version of the Stones' "The Last Time" — specifically, on an orchestral arrangement recorded in 1965 by the Andrew Oldham Orchestra, a side project from Andrew Loog Oldham, the Stones' manager and record producer, who enlisted various session musicians and arranger David Whitaker to create symphonic versions of Stones songs.Not Andrew Loog Oldham though, it was Allen Klein of ABKCO that instigated the legal proceedings that saw him and Jagger/Richards get the money from the Verve's "Bittersweet Symphony". It was only sorted out after Klein died. I always thought it was bad form that Jagger and Richards didn't speak up about it at the time and just kept on accepting the royalties from the Verve's biggest song for a couple of decades. Especially since the Jagger/Richards song that the orchestral string loop was from originally ("The LastTime") was itself plagiarised from the Staples Singers' "This May Be The Last Time". The Verve actually negotiated the rights to use the sample from Decca Records, but Kline refused to grant the band the publishing rights. Thing is, I've always thought that Klein was on shaky legal ground because that symphonic Stones' loop does not constitute songwriting. If I sit down in front of an audience and play "Bittersweet Symphony" on an acoustic guitar, the chords I play and the words I sing were all written by the Verve. That string loop is pretty and is immediately identifiable, but it's not actually part of the bones of the song, so to speak. It really isn't a case of plagiarism at all IMHO.
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Post by impulse on Apr 7, 2020 16:54:02 GMT -5
Thing is, I've always thought that Klein was on shaky legal ground because that symphonic Stones' loop does not constitute songwriting. If I sit down in front of an audience and play "Bittersweet Symphony" on an acoustic guitar, the chords I play and the words I sing were all written by the Verve. That string loop is pretty and is immediately identifiable, but it's not actually part of the bones of the song, so to speak. It really isn't a case of plagiarism at all IMHO.Interesting thought, and a hard sell for me. Not the rest of your post, but this. That orchestral loop is probably the most identifiable part of the song, and isn't it pretty much playing the entire time? It's been a while since I've listened. Going to give it a spin.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Apr 7, 2020 17:02:34 GMT -5
Thing is, I've always thought that Klein was on shaky legal ground because that symphonic Stones' loop does not constitute songwriting. If I sit down in front of an audience and play "Bittersweet Symphony" on an acoustic guitar, the chords I play and the words I sing were all written by the Verve. That string loop is pretty and is immediately identifiable, but it's not actually part of the bones of the song, so to speak. It really isn't a case of plagiarism at all IMHO.Interesting thought, and a hard sell for me. Not the rest of your post, but this. That orchestral loop is probably the most identifiable part of the song, and isn't it pretty much playing the entire time? It's been a while since I've listened. Going to give it a spin. Oh, it's absolutely is an integral part of the Verve's recording of "Bittersweet Symphony", for sure! But it's not an integral part of what constitutes the bones of the song. Let's say I rearranged the song as a really slow, really delicate number on autoharp, I'd be strumming the chords and singing, "Well, it's a bittersweet symphony this life..." over the top of them. Now, you'd clearly be able to recognise the song as the Verve's, and yet that string loop is nowhere to be heard.
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Post by impulse on Apr 7, 2020 17:39:05 GMT -5
Seems kind of splitting hairs, no? They took someone else’s music and used it without permission. I suppose there’s a legal distinction between plagiarizing writing and copyright infringement, but in spirit isn’t it basically the same thing? They could have done a different arrangement; but they didn’t.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Apr 7, 2020 18:30:01 GMT -5
Well sure, they could've used a different arrangement. But the loop is just six notes...it is not the melody of "The Last Time" at all (a song the Stones half plagiarised anyway). Had the band's guitarist Nick McCabe played those three notes on guitar, rather than using a sample from an orchestral version of the Stones' song, there likely would've been no problem.
I guess my point is that, after the legal trouble, the song's writing credits were changed to Jagger/Richards. That's unjust. Those two Rolling Stones absolutely did not write "Bittersweet Symphony". The chord progression, melody and lyrics were all Richard Ashcroft's. At most, it should've been credited to Ashcroft/Jagger/Richards and even that is a stretch in my book.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Apr 7, 2020 18:41:44 GMT -5
Well sure, they could've used a different arrangement. But the loop is just six notes...it is not the melody of "The Last Time" at all (a song the Stones half plagiarised anyway). Had the band's guitarist Nick McCabe played those three notes on guitar, rather than using a sample from an orchestral version of the Stones' song, there likely would've been no problem. I guess my point is that, after the legal trouble, the song's writing credits were changed to Jagger/Richards. That's unjust. Those two Rolling Stones absolutely did not write "Bittersweet Symphony". The chord progression, melody and lyrics were all Richard Ashcroft's. At most, it should've been credited to Ashcroft/Jagger/Richards and even that is a stretch in my book. Ok this is what I was vaguely referring to in my post. I thought I had read somewhere that the Stone put The Verve’s nose to the grinder about “stealing” their music all the while the song The Verve worked a deal with to sample was a Stones song they plagiarized themselves. Ah well outside of Beast Burden Bittersweet Symphony is better than any other Stones song. There I said it. *prepares to be banned*
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2020 20:08:07 GMT -5
This pretty much my feelings on Led Zepplin. I don't know a lot of the original music that they borrowed from (and neither am I music historian either) but I do know that they did a lot of that. Maybe I have a different view of a lot of "borrowing" and sampling because I grew up in the 80's and 90's listening to rap which sampled heavily from older R&B/soul musicians whose music I did know. And in most cases liked both the original and sampling. Then there is me not knowing Ice Ice Baby was sampled from Under Pressure or Been Around the World sampled Let's Dance. Because my folks didn't listen to many of these artists and I didn't discover them until I got much older. In both cases, again I like both the original song and the sampled song. Covers however I am not so open minded about. :-) Also a side questions, since we are on the subject ... didn't Rolling Stones take The Verve to court over like one or two notes lifted from a song of theirs in Bittersweet Symphony? And then they apparently did it themselves with other people's music, with no credit? Yeah, their lack of credit was appalling, but generally, I thought they did great stuff with the material. I'm not a big pure old blues guy, but I love when the Brits fused it with that rock energy and just juiced it up. On that note, if you want to hear a real blues guy who juiced it up, Buddy Guy is amazing. Legend live. Buddy Guy is the best! I wish I would have discovered him in my teen years. I'm at least grateful that I did discover him while he's still around, so I got see him last year. The teen-age Drake wouldn't believe it, but Buddy tops EVH, Page, Blackmore, Angus Young, Adrian Smith, etc...
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Post by beccabear67 on Apr 7, 2020 20:16:01 GMT -5
A lot of Led Zeppelin fans also don't realize Jimmy Page copped Eddie Phillips of The Creation when it comes to using a bow on an electric guitar. Phillips was there earlier and better (see The Creation's Painter Man). Again, mostly just people claiming things for an artist out of ignorance, not so much the artist themself claiming anything, like Michael Jackson was hardly the first performer to do a moonwalk, and if there had been no James Brown there never would've been a little kid imitating him to start out in the first place. But who can say that there wasn't a caveman Ugh in 2,000,000 B.C. didn't start the whole thing with a hollow log and a couple of vines? Another thing I'd like to say about I think is important about The Beatles is how they really did give credit to others and used the attention they got to shine a light on other artists (like the Rolling Stones whose second single was a Lennon-McCartney I Want To be Your Man). Brian Jones of the Stones also did this, even getting a U.S. teen show to put Howling Wolf on if they wanted the Stones! Elvis was like this somewhat as well, apparently he though Ricky Nelson was great as well as Arthur Crudup, and David Bowie was another big name who was always still a fan himself in the best sense. I don't like it when people write off an artist or group casually, or even worse, an entire area of music. Don't burn your bridges or you might miss say an opera singer's version of Georgy girl you might really like. People write off all country and all rap, all metal or all disco, and I just don't know why... you don't have to be a hippie to enjoy The Grateful Dead right? You don't have to drop acid to get something out of Syd Barrett. In one moment they will discount the Monkees as phony because they wore costumes on tv, and at another praise Sgt. Pepper's to the sky as the greatest work of Art ever (I mean obviously that was Revolver anyway). Of course I got on the wrong side of some comic book fans for liking old Chip N' Dale or Scamp comics, or even Supergirl, so I gave up caring about ever being cool or with it. I'm an adult and will listen to The Archies, The Carpenters, and John Denver if I bloody want to! Or for our European readers, er... The Wombles, Abba, and Eiffel 65!
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Apr 7, 2020 20:23:29 GMT -5
My dad’s favorite artist is The Carpenters. My aunt’s favorite is John Denver. So I know a lot of both. Though I like more of Denver than Carpenters. Sugar Sugar was and is still one of my favorite songs. My folks had a 45 of it and I wore it and Crimson and Clover out on the record player as a wee lad, as the British folks say.
For my mother, when she was young it was the Monkees. So we had a lot more Monkees records than Beatles. So most of the Beatles I heard growing up was on the oldies station on the radio.
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Post by beccabear67 on Apr 8, 2020 0:14:03 GMT -5
Well, I'm pretty satisfied now; I've got six tracks by the group Smile, three demos by Brian May from 1967, five demos by Queen from December 1971, and one unissued from June 1972 to add to the ten 1984 group tracks I had. Tim Staffell was the lead singer (and bass player I think as well) in 1984 and Smile and he was a graphic artist which is how he knew Freddie... when he left Fred entered and then they had to get a separate bass player (that movie's chronology is wrong, but that's showbiz). I had only heard this one track Polar Bear ever before and it was mislabelled Queen when it was actually Smile. Anyway, the thing to get if anyone else is interested is titled Gettin' Smile which has been released in various variations. I mentioned being interested in this stuff in the Which One? thread. The only other Queen I have is the first two LPs, The Game which a friend bought when it was new out and left me when he moved to another part of the country, and the original Greatest Hits LP my brother handed down at some point along with Nazareth's Razamanaz, Ole' ELO, and the 1975 Fleetwood Mac album. I grew up with the second Monkees LP, More Of the Monkees, and this Canadian Archies hits on RCA (I love the cover!).
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Apr 8, 2020 0:39:12 GMT -5
My Queen collection consists of their Greatest Hits volumes 1 and 2, plus the albums A Night At The Opera and the Flash Gordon soundtrack. To be honest, that's all the Queen I need.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 0:50:47 GMT -5
My Queen collection consists of their Greatest Hits volumes 1 and 2, plus the albums A Night At The Opera and the Flash Gordon soundtrack. To be honest, that's all the Queen I need. News of the World is worth owning on vinyl just for the Kelly Freas album cover (it was also the first rock album I ever owned). -M
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Post by brutalis on Apr 8, 2020 7:47:19 GMT -5
My Queen collection consists of their Greatest Hits volumes 1 and 2, plus the albums A Night At The Opera and the Flash Gordon soundtrack. To be honest, that's all the Queen I need. What? No copy of A Kind of Magic for the Highlander music? For the longest time my only Queen album was the original Greatest Hits Volume 1. Then during the late mid 90's my cousin's wife was working at a music store in the mall and when it closed up and marked down CD's I managed to grab up a few more from Queen. I got The Game, News of the World, A Kind of Magic, Flash Gordon. A few years back I bought a used CD of Return of the Champions with Paul Rodgers and enjoy his interpretation of their songs.
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