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Post by The Captain on Jun 2, 2020 15:46:21 GMT -5
NOTE: I'm going to mention the George Floyd situation in this post, but not in a political way.
I am finding that I've reached a wonderful point in my life in regard to my children, as they are of the age, particularly my older daughter who is nearly 15, where who they are as people is really starting to show.
This past Saturday afternoon, my wife and I ordered take-out from a couple of restaurants in the next town over, which is about a 12 minute drive from our house. Three of us got burgers from one place, while the younger daughter got a pizza from a joint around the corner from the burger shop. I asked if anyone wanted to just go for the ride to get out of the house, and my older daughter jumped at the chance.
About half-way there, I just looked over at her and asked "so, what do you think about what happened up in Minneapolis the other day?", not sure of the response I would get. I was amazed at how she poured out her thoughts about racism and injustice, examining it from a societal standpoint while tying it together with Scripture about loving one's neighbor and how God created all of us equal in His image. She then said that she didn't completely understand what "systemic racism" was, which gave me a chance on the way back to explain that concept to her, and she said that helped her understand why people were protesting and even rioting.
This was the second time in the past month she floored me with her reaction to something. The first time was while she was watching the TV show "Once Upon A Time", which had aired on ABC for seven seasons. In the final season, there was a storyline involving two lesbian characters who were kept apart by a curse that caused them to lose their memories; even though they were drawn to each other, they didn't remember the feelings they had for one another. Toward the end of the show, the curse was broken and they regained their memories, and they rushed to each other and kissed, at which point my daughter's hand shot upward and she yelled "YES!" I asked her why she did that, and she told me she had "been totally shipping them all year" and that they "were the best couple on the show"; her younger sister chimed in that they "were totally cute together". That was not tolerance. That was not acceptance. That was them actively rooting for a gay couple to be together, and even if they were only fictional, it affected me so much so that I had to leave the room due to a bunch of stupid ninjas cutting onions.
I was raised in a household where my father (her grandfather) was openly racist, misogynistic, sexist, and homophobic, and it poisoned my view of the world for years. While I have since been exposed to more and been able to overcome that early and constant exposure to an ugly side of humanity, she is growing up to be a strong young woman with a heart for others from the get-go. These were incredible moments for me, to see this little girl, who I held just minutes after her birth and have loved every moment since, caring and thinking about others in ways I never did, or could, at her age and understanding her responsibility to her community, her country, and her world to be better than generations past.
There. I said it, and now I have to excuse myself, because those damn ninjas and their onions are back.
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Post by Farrar on Jun 2, 2020 17:59:51 GMT -5
I thank the Fates that we got to see that series while in fifth grade, Prince Hal , a perfect age to discover the Illiad and the Odyssey. I remember that for a while, instead of playing cowboys and Indians, we kids played Odysseus and Polyphemus. A few of us needed glasses afterwards. I know this is in response an older post/conversation, but I just got around to taking this picture of my very first Iliad and Odyssey. I bought these when I was in grade school (at a school book fair) and I still have 'em--so I'm posting them here! There, I said it
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2020 18:19:16 GMT -5
I thank the Fates that we got to see that series while in fifth grade, Prince Hal , a perfect age to discover the Illiad and the Odyssey. I remember that for a while, instead of playing cowboys and Indians, we kids played Odysseus and Polyphemus. A few of us needed glasses afterwards. I know this is in response an older post/conversation, but I just got around to taking this picture of my very first Iliad and Odyssey. I bought these when I was in grade school (at a school book fair) and I still have 'em--so I'm posting them here! There, I said it Those are the prose translations I read in high school. At university, I read different translations, this time keeping it in verse. I found that while I prefer prose to poetry in most cases, Homer read better in its natural poetic form than it did in Rouse's prose. When my university professor discovered those were the versions I had read previously, she told me bluntly I had not read Homer then and that reading those had as much validity as reading a comic book version-I wasn't exactly sure what the problem was with that... -M
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Post by Farrar on Jun 2, 2020 18:39:03 GMT -5
^^^^ Wow, @mrp, that's harsh, lol.
I later acquired and/or read other versions, but those were my first and I remember being so excited to have my very own copies of "grown up" books featuring some of the gods and heroes I'd read about previously in my picture books. In particular there was one beautifully illustrated picture book about the Greek gods and heroes that I loved and I wish I still had it, but I cannot recall the author's name and nothing I've seen online in book search sites looks or seems familiar. But it was that one book in particular that fostered my love of Greek myths, Roman myths and the like.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2020 20:44:08 GMT -5
^^^^ Wow, @mrp, that's harsh, lol. I later acquired and/or read other versions, but those were my first and I remember being so excited to have my very own copies of "grown up" books featuring some of the gods and heroes I'd read about previously in my picture books. In particular there was one beautifully illustrated picture book about the Greek gods and heroes that I loved and I wish I still had it, but I cannot recall the author's name and nothing I've seen online in book search sites looks or seems familiar. But it was that one book in particular that fostered my love of Greek myths, Roman myths and the like. Well to be fair, she was a Greek scholar (and Latin scholar) and felt if you read something in translation, you hadn't actually read the original either. We were only undergrads, so she settled for English verse translations rather than the Greek originals. I enjoyed the Rouse prose translations when I read them, and they were a god introduction to me, but there is something about the poetic form and structure of the Iliad and Odyssey that I find intrinsic to it that do not translate to or work well in prose. Later in my undergrad years, I did take a semester of Ancient Greek, but discovered I had little facility in the language (of course it didn't help that the instructor assumed we all knew Latin and its forms which are essentially the same as Ancient Greek, and I was the only one in the class who hadn't previously taken Latin). But I did read a few passages of Homer in the original Greek before it was all through. -M edit to add: it was the same professor who assigned the book Singer of Tales by Lord that transformed my view of the organic nature of oral tradition and how works like the Homeric epics were not monolithic works but evolved over time until they were stratified into a written form (which is has also informed my views on the concepts of canon, continuity, and "correct" forms of stories and characters which is an entirely modern concept grafted on to the art of storytelling and not intrinsic to it).
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Post by Duragizer on Jun 2, 2020 20:48:38 GMT -5
NOTE: I'm going to mention the George Floyd situation in this post, but not in a political way. I am finding that I've reached a wonderful point in my life in regard to my children, as they are of the age, particularly my older daughter who is nearly 15, where who they are as people is really starting to show. This past Saturday afternoon, my wife and I ordered take-out from a couple of restaurants in the next town over, which is about a 12 minute drive from our house. Three of us got burgers from one place, while the younger daughter got a pizza from a joint around the corner from the burger shop. I asked if anyone wanted to just go for the ride to get out of the house, and my older daughter jumped at the chance. About half-way there, I just looked over at her and asked "so, what do you think about what happened up in Minneapolis the other day?", not sure of the response I would get. I was amazed at how she poured out her thoughts about racism and injustice, examining it from a societal standpoint while tying it together with Scripture about loving one's neighbor and how God created all of us equal in His image. She then said that she didn't completely understand what "systemic racism" was, which gave me a chance on the way back to explain that concept to her, and she said that helped her understand why people were protesting and even rioting. This was the second time in the past month she floored me with her reaction to something. The first time was while she was watching the TV show "Once Upon A Time", which had aired on ABC for seven seasons. In the final season, there was a storyline involving two lesbian characters who were kept apart by a curse that caused them to lose their memories; even though they were drawn to each other, they didn't remember the feelings they had for one another. Toward the end of the show, the curse was broken and they regained their memories, and they rushed to each other and kissed, at which point my daughter's hand shot upward and she yelled "YES!" I asked her why she did that, and she told me she had "been totally shipping them all year" and that they "were the best couple on the show"; her younger sister chimed in that they "were totally cute together". That was not tolerance. That was not acceptance. That was them actively rooting for a gay couple to be together, and even if they were only fictional, it affected me so much so that I had to leave the room due to a bunch of stupid ninjas cutting onions. I was raised in a household where my father (her grandfather) was openly racist, misogynistic, sexist, and homophobic, and it poisoned my view of the world for years. While I have since been exposed to more and been able to overcome that early and constant exposure to an ugly side of humanity, she is growing up to be a strong young woman with a heart for others from the get-go. These were incredible moments for me, to see this little girl, who I held just minutes after her birth and have loved every moment since, caring and thinking about others in ways I never did, or could, at her age and understanding her responsibility to her community, her country, and her world to be better than generations past. There. I said it, and now I have to excuse myself, because those damn ninjas and their onions are back. I used to be a misanthrope, antinatalist, and borderline nihilist. Stories like these helped pull me back from that abyss and continue to help me.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 9,541
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Post by Confessor on Jun 3, 2020 0:23:30 GMT -5
It's been far too long since I read The Iliad and The Odyssey. I dont actually own copies of them anymore. I purged them, along with a load of other books, to free up space when I first moved in with my wife.
I didn't know prose versions of these stores was a thing though; the editions I owned were translations in verse form, replicating the original ancient Greek.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Jun 3, 2020 3:53:53 GMT -5
(...) edit to add: it was the same professor who assigned the book Singer of Tales by Lord that transformed my view of the organic nature of oral tradition and how works like the Homeric epics were not monolithic works but evolved over time until they were stratified into a written form (which is has also informed my views on the concepts of canon, continuity, and "correct" forms of stories and characters which is an entirely modern concept grafted on to the art of storytelling and not intrinsic to it). Far be it from me to suggest adding more to someone else's reading pile, but since you mentioned Lord's book, it immediately reminded me of a novel called The File on H by Albanian writer Ismail Kadare. The story is set in 1930s Albania and centers around the then still extant singers of oral epics and two Western scholars who have come to study and record them. It's a pretty enjoyable book, with - unusually for Kadare - a lot of humorous scenes.
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Post by Farrar on Jun 3, 2020 10:46:19 GMT -5
Well to be fair, she was a Greek scholar (and Latin scholar) and felt if you read something in translation, you hadn't actually read the original either. We were only undergrads, so she settled for English verse translations rather than the Greek originals. I enjoyed the Rouse prose translations when I read them, and they were a god introduction to me, but there is something about the poetic form and structure of the Iliad and Odyssey that I find intrinsic to it that do not translate to or work well in prose. Later in my undergrad years, I did take a semester of Ancient Greek, but discovered I had little facility in the language (of course it didn't help that the instructor assumed we all knew Latin and its forms which are essentially the same as Ancient Greek, and I was the only one in the class who hadn't previously taken Latin). But I did read a few passages of Homer in the original Greek before it was all through. I can empathize with your professor ! As I mentioned some pages ago in this thread (not that I expect anyone to remember a post I wrote months ago...or even minutes ago ), I took Latin in high school and of course we read the Aeneid, in 10th or 11th grade, with a great teacher. When I got to college, what do you think was on the syllabus for my World Lit class? That's right, the Aeneid, only this time in an English translation. I'll never forget haughtily announcing to the instructor that I had already read the Aeneid in Latin and that reading it in English would be awful and inadequate. (It turned out okay--given my bold proclamation the instructor looked to me to help him out for that unit and gave me some extra responsibilities and assignments--yeah, more work but it made it interesting for me.) As for my high school Latin teacher, about a half dozen years ago I was reading a book I'd not read before on Greek tragedy and the author wrote in the introduction that her "love affair with classics began in high school [when] my wonderful Latin teacher generously introduced us to Greek on his lunch hour." Huh, I thought, that's just like what my high school teacher did. And yes, it was the same teacher (evidently she'd attended my high school, many years earlier). This teacher passed away a few years ago and there was such an outpouring of love and thanks on our alumni sites, on social media, etc., everyone saying how he'd managed to make a dead language come alive and much more. He was one of the most inspiring teachers I've ever had and he was for many others as well. There, I said it.
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Post by brutalis on Jun 3, 2020 13:57:28 GMT -5
There is nothing more sleep inducing than staring at your work computer screen for hours while doing data entry when you are already tired. Thank goodness I have the CCF for some quick mental breaks throughout to re-energize. There I said it!
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Post by berkley on Jun 3, 2020 15:18:14 GMT -5
I've studied Latin and ancient Greek at a very superficial level in years past, never got anywhere near being able to read Homer (or anything else) in the original but it's something I'd like to try in the future. As far as the English translations go, I've read several and I agree that verse generally works better than prose. My favourite is probably Richard Lattimore, but I wouldn't want to have missed the pleasures of Alexander Pope's 18th-century version of the Iliad, or George Chapman's Elizabethan translation.
The WHD Rouse books are actually the most interesting of the prose versions I've read because he employs a certain kind of very English narrative voice that I think should feel strangely familiar to readers of things like The Hobbit, Kipling's Just-So Stories, Kenneth Grahame, etc.
Strangely, because it doesn't really suit the stark, brutal violence of the Iliad, and I think that Rouse's verson of that book can safely be skipped. But it did work surprisingly well for me with the Odyssey, at least the first half, perhaps because the folkloric nature of much the travels isn't far removed from the world of fairy-tales. I suspect it might not work so well with the revenge story of the second half, after Odysseus's return to Ithaca, but to be honest it's been so long since I read the book I can't actually remember.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 4, 2020 7:58:50 GMT -5
Amid the Protesting, rioting and looting, the Covid numbers have been all but ignored. No state is talking about continuing the shutdown, no matter what the numbers will reveal.
There I said it.
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Post by brutalis on Jun 4, 2020 8:56:01 GMT -5
Amid the Protesting, rioting and looting, the Covid numbers have been all but ignored. No state is talking about continuing the shutdown, no matter what the numbers will reveal. There I said it. Typical short attention span of most people. Out of sight, out of mind. Also news going for the ratings over what is important. If Covid #s spike again then you will see it everywhere once more. Already here in the hospital where we live with the danger each day, many staff have become blase and walk around without masks or wearing masks on their chin instead of pulled up while not washing thier hands properly.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 4, 2020 9:07:37 GMT -5
It might be inevitable that Hurd immunity will have to happen.
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Post by brutalis on Jun 4, 2020 9:13:52 GMT -5
It might be inevitable that Hurd immunity will have to happen. John Hurd will come up with a vaccination from his blood? Or do you mean we all need to become immune to John Hurd's acting?
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