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Post by Mormel on Feb 28, 2016 14:56:43 GMT -5
RE:the X-Men pretending to be dead while operating from the Outback.
I always felt that that was a good concept with a poor execution.
Was it ever explained how the X-Ladies could go to a mall in San Francisco, without being recognized, especially a celebrity like Allison? AFAIK Roma never altered their faces when she restored them and gave them their 'electronic invisibility'.
And before 'Ladies Night', they interacted with X-Factor, Sinister & the Marauders, and people working for the Genoshan government. It just seems to blow holes into the 'mysterious, wraith-like team of mutant vigilantes' set-up and maintaining the pretense that the X-Men are dead.
I did like some concepts of the Outback era, namely how certain narrative staples like Cerebro, Blackbird, and Danger Room were replaced by the Reavers' computer, Gateway, and training in the abandoned town or the caves.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Feb 28, 2016 15:42:19 GMT -5
RE:the X-Men pretending to be dead while operating from the Outback. I always felt that that was a good concept with a poor execution. The whole concept of pretending to be dead so you can strike at your enemies while not making your loved ones a target is sound, but in the context of a specific story where you have an enemy to take down and loved ones to protect. A story in which the X-Men become a militant group tightly focused on a specific mission. In the case of that group of X-Men, the replacement team that assembled after the Mutant Massacre, I don't think the plan was sound. To begin with, there was no specific enemy that was an immediate threat. Oh, sure, a few captions at the time stated it was the Reavers, but come on... those guys were small fry. But even if we accept that the X-Men had several dangerous foes... the very minute the X-Men would take them on, wouldn't the ploy be exposed? It's not as if the heroes meant to kill their foes to keep them from revealing that they were still alive. And if the Reavers and Mr. Sinister know you're not really dead, what's the point of letting Kitty, Kurt and Moira think you are? Isn't it uselessly cruel? As for protecting their loved ones... Aren't most of their loved ones superheroes themselves? And since X-Factor, the New mutants and Excalibur didn't go along with the plan, wouldn't all the civilians associated with the X-people still be in as much danger as before Storm, Wolverine, Psylocke, Havok, Rogue, Colossus, Dazzler, Longshot and Maddie Pryor were thought dead? (Most X-villains reading that list would probably say "I know Storm, Colossus and Wolverine but who are the others?") I must say I am very impressed by Claremont's willingness to take risks with that franchise by sending it places it hadn't been before. The New X-Men team had been so popular that it would have been easy to just continue with the same characters in the same school, fighting the same battles. He really took the "kill your darlings" concept to heart. I just regret that personally, I didn't much enjoy that era and was very happy when the book returned to its rich and not-yet overused environment. (I think the issue where Banshee returns is the one that got me saying " That's more like it!". Old fans, right?) |
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Post by Dizzy D on Mar 3, 2016 9:02:09 GMT -5
RE:the X-Men pretending to be dead while operating from the Outback. I always felt that that was a good concept with a poor execution. The whole concept of pretending to be dead so you can strike at your enemies while not making your loved ones a target is sound, but in the context of a specific story where you have an enemy to take down and loved ones to protect. A story in which the X-Men become a militant group tightly focused on a specific mission. In the case of that group of X-Men, the replacement team that assembled after the Mutant Massacre, I don't think the plan was sound. To begin with, there was no specific enemy that was an immediate threat. Oh, sure, a few captions at the time stated it was the Reavers, but come on... those guys were small fry. But even if we accept that the X-Men had several dangerous foes... the very minute the X-Men would take them on, wouldn't the ploy be exposed? It's not as if the heroes meant to kill their foes to keep them from revealing that they were still alive. And if the Reavers and Mr. Sinister know you're not really dead, what's the point of letting Kitty, Kurt and Moira think you are? Isn't it uselessly cruel? As for protecting their loved ones... Aren't most of their loved ones superheroes themselves? And since X-Factor, the New mutants and Excalibur didn't go along with the plan, wouldn't all the civilians associated with the X-people still be in as much danger as before Storm, Wolverine, Psylocke, Havok, Rogue, Colossus, Dazzler, Longshot and Maddie Pryor were thought dead? (Most X-villains reading that list would probably say "I know Storm, Colossus and Wolverine but who are the others?") I must say I am very impressed by Claremont's willingness to take risks with that franchise by sending it places it hadn't been before. The New X-Men team had been so popular that it would have been easy to just continue with the same characters in the same school, fighting the same battles. He really took the "kill your darlings" concept to heart. I just regret that personally, I didn't much enjoy that era and was very happy when the book returned to its rich and not-yet overused environment. (I think the issue where Banshee returns is the one that got me saying " That's more like it!". Old fans, right?) I like that period a lot for the individual stories, but always hated the plan (even at that time) and looking back it did far more harm than good (by deciding to keep their survival hidden from their friends and family, I'd say they directly caused the rift between Madelyne Pryor and Cyclops, leading to her becoming the Goblin Queen, it lead Illyana to start practicing black magic to bring back her brother and turning away from her teammates, Brian turning to alcohol after losing his sister, Magneto returning to his old ways out of frustration, leaving the New Mutants without guidance etc. etc.). I can see Storm considering the plan (she was basically a loner) and I can see Wolverine (another loner, but really Logan? Think about Mariko and Amiko for a second?), Longshot (amnesiac with no past) and Rogue (another loner, though again it messes up Mystique a lot) going along with the plan. But Psylocke, Colossus and Havok all had close relatives and Dazzler definitely wasn't the type to go live on a paramilitary base in the middle of nowhere. I could see no reasons why they would go along with this plan (and somehow they ended up as the last 4 of this team and didn't decide to just go back to their friends and family) And the kicker is that they never actually use their advantage against their opponents (well, they use it against the Reavers, who basically had no contact to the X-men previously, so were not expecting anything anyway), but their conflict with Genosha for instance starts when Genoshan forces kidnap Madelyn Pryor, so once again the X-Men are reacting to threads rather than acting. Anyway I finally have a bit of time, so the X-men franchise on its whole and specifics: Things I like: - The school for superheroes. It's a simple concept, but it keeps the group connected, while most superhero teams are basically "they have powers, they fight crime." - The common origin/mutants as a species: not always used in the best way, but it offers a lot of storytelling potential. It is another way to connect the members of the group. M-day basically erasing mutants as a species, leaving only a relatively small group of survivors (and 99% of them being either heroes or villains) did the franchise a lot of damage IMHO by removing the innocent mutants that were to be guided and protected. My favourite runs are usually the spin-off titles, because it had the mutants interacting with non-mutants (X-Factor, Excalibur), while the X-Men themselves became more and more isolated from the rest of the Marvel Universe, apparently forgetting that the coexistence of mutants and humans was the whole point. - The original idea of the X-Men members having not that impressive powers compared to the Justice League or the Avengers, but compensating with a lot of teamwork. I like the original stories a lot (could do without the Friedrich issues and the early Roy Thomas stuff). - The team being more international and diverse than most other superhero teams at the time. Some terrible stereotypes (really Claremont? Banshee owns a castle filled with leprechauns?) and some odd speech patterns, the members tended to have more personality beyond their nationality. - I think 70s/80s/90s Mystique is one of the best villains in comicbooks. The combination of understable goals (mutant rights, survival, protecting her loved ones), emotional ties to other characters (there was genuine loyalty between her teammembers and herself) and a complete ruthlessness when needed, meant that she could organically move from enemy to ally depending on the story. - There are some great visual designs in the X-Men. Kirby's Magneto, Cyclops, Juggernaut and Sentinels are still the go-to designs for those characters (with small tweaks from time to time, but the basic concept is very strong). Cockrum's Nightcrawler and Storm. Things I disliked: - Plan Omega as said above. - The Shadow King: I really, really dislike the Shadow King as a villain. He was fine as Amahl Farouk in a flashback story for Xavier and Storm, but he kept coming back and back, getting increasingly more powerful and all stories ended up as vehicles to get X-Men fighting other X-Men. Overreliance on mind-control stories in general really. And I can't even give Claremont the full blame for this (even thoughhe went to this well a lot): the classic X-Men for instance had the following villains in succession: Mesmero (who had hypnotic powers), the Warlock (who had hypnotic powers) and Sauron (who had hypnotic powers) - Forcing unrelated concepts into the X-Men Universe: Longshot is one of my favourite Marvel Characters, but for some reason they felt the need to put him in the X-Men, even though the concepts behind Longshot has nothing to do with the X-Men's concept, and then doing absolutely nothing with him. Which ends up with Longshot being mostly a filler character in X-books (luckily he had a recent non-X-related mini, but I miss the original mini Longshot.. and Mojo for that matter, who has turned into comic relief, while he had some great potential as leader of one of the few mediacrat societies in comics). Captain Britain's mythos was also nearly completely absorbed into the X-Men franchise, but due to MI13 that has been luckily undone. mmm... runnning out of time here, |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Mar 3, 2016 9:21:03 GMT -5
(...) but really Logan? Think about Mariko and Amiko for a second?) Nope, he never does, but somehow Cyclops is the poster boy for cheating deadbeat mutant dads. It's Logan's bad boy aura : it's like a free get out of jail card! I had forgotten about him, but I agree 100%! It's unfortunate that Chris seemed to like the character so much. He really should have stayed dead after the Ahmal Farouk episode. His increasing omnipotence also made him look like a plot device and not an actual villain. Even his name, "shadow king" just came out of the blue! |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2016 13:20:02 GMT -5
While I will always love the X-Men, I do not read any of the current books. Too much to keep up with, no idea which X-man is on which team, who's dead, who's been dead and returned to life, who's good, who's bad these days.
I did enjoy the X-Factor series that was out a couple of years ago with Polaris, Gambit, Quicksilver, Danger, and Warlock.
My all-time favorite X-Men story is Madelyn and Cyclops--and how the reader was kept guessing if she was Jean or not. That was the first X-Men story I ever read and I followed the X-Men off and on for several years.
I enjoyed the X-Men more when there were only a couple of titles, the school did not have tons of students running around, and featured the more classic characters.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Mar 3, 2016 14:54:21 GMT -5
My all-time favorite X-Men story is Madelyn and Cyclops--and how the reader was kept guessing if she was Jean or not. That, and the message that after a time of mourning it is possible to find love again. It was a very powerful, if bittersweet message. One entirely screwed up by what followed, naturally. |
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Post by Dizzy D on Mar 3, 2016 14:57:26 GMT -5
My all-time favorite X-Men story is Madelyn and Cyclops--and how the reader was kept guessing if she was Jean or not. That, and the message that after a time of mourning it is possible to find love again. It was a very powerful, if bittersweet message. One entirely screwed up by what followed, naturally. I don't know. Even as a kid, I could already see that picking an exact copy to replace your dead girlfriend was asking for trouble. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Mar 3, 2016 15:34:38 GMT -5
That, and the message that after a time of mourning it is possible to find love again. It was a very powerful, if bittersweet message. One entirely screwed up by what followed, naturally. I don't know. Even as a kid, I could already see that picking an exact copy to replace your dead girlfriend was asking for trouble. True, but that was unavoidable if the previous "is she Jean or not" story was to work. The important thing after that was for Scott to say on Jean's tomb "Now Madelyne and I have the chance of building something different; I'm glad she's not you". That showed he had truly moved on, even if he was still a sucker for a pretty redhead. (But hey, so is Charlie Brown). |
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Post by sabongero on Mar 3, 2016 15:52:40 GMT -5
I think one of the concepts in the X-Men that is going to be continuous is the WWF/WWE style of revolving door face turn and heel turn of the characters. Mystique, Sabretooth, Emma, and a host of others.
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Post by Dizzy D on Mar 3, 2016 16:11:41 GMT -5
I remembered another thing I really like about the X-Men (but again it's not something every writer does and it's not something that even would apply to all characters): the relationship between a character and his or her powers. Peter David was especially good at this. The X-Men being born or having their powers from a relatively young age vs. most superheroes who get their powers at a later age (and in some cases, even where they were born with their powers); their powers are more like a natural part of them, influencing the way their personality formed during their lifetime (Quicksilver and Madrox are probably the best examples, but we can see it in various other characters as well).
Of course often enough writers still treat the powers as things that are somehow not part of the character itself. Something that can change, be taken away and so on (most blatant example I can think off is Jean and Psylocke for no explained reason switching powers during Claremont's 2nd run.)
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Post by Mormel on Mar 3, 2016 16:34:22 GMT -5
^Likewise, it seems to be much more of a big deal when a mutant loses their powers, for example with Ric and Pietro in 'X-Factor' after M-Day. It's treated like a maiming; Rictor doesn't just lose a nifty ability to cause earthquakes, he also loses the attunement he had to the Earth, and as a result he feels absolutely miserable, like a limb has been torn from him.
I also loved how they handled Storm's powers in this respect; they are directly linked to her moods which is why she cultivated that emotional serenity when she was living in Kenya. But it took years to reach that kind of control. When Emma Frost switched bodies with her, she could not control the weather with equal finesse, and Storm had trouble adjusting to Frost's telepathy as well. When Rogue absorbed Storm's powers in the Pentagon, she lost control over them pretty fast as well. Then later, when Rogue joined the team there was this great sequence where Storm offers her power freely and guides Rogue into how they work.
Also, I was greatly intrigued by the suggestion in 'Astonishing X-Men' that Cyclops might actually be able to control his powers all along, but chose not to. That turned out to be untrue in the same story arc, but it was a fun idea Whedon threw in there.
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Post by sabongero on Mar 3, 2016 19:41:16 GMT -5
Back when Chris Claremont was writing the Uncanny X-Men in their prime, he wrote what fanboys called "Claremontian Women" or "Claremazons." Strong willed and independent women, who are still attractive and fascinating, but are no pushovers. Sometimes he would deconstruct them only to build them back up but more upgraded to become more intimidating, tough, and at times uncompromising than what they were before. Some fanboys implied that there were some subtle female homosexual undertones to some of Chris Claremont's stories.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2016 21:02:43 GMT -5
A uniform origin story. All of them being mutants seemed to work better than other ensemble teams from both publishers with characters whose individual stories didn't seem to mesh as well. A mythological god, an alien, a radiation experiment gone wrong, ect.
The school providing a reasonable source of new character introductions and new eventual teammates or even sister titles.
I liked how sometimes they'd wear matching team costumes and sometimes they wouldn't. It's so rare for a superhero to ever change clothes or have more than one "hero" costume.
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Post by sabongero on Aug 24, 2017 15:19:35 GMT -5
What enemy/villain groups did the X-Men/X-Factor/New Mutants/etc. face-off against?
I know there's the "Brotherhood of Evil Mutants." Is Freedom Force considered an enemy group of the X-Men?
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Aug 24, 2017 15:30:25 GMT -5
I really liked the Eel/Plant-Man/Unicorn/Bunch of other D List villains circa X-men (first series) 21.
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