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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 15, 2019 6:35:34 GMT -5
This complete Mantlo's giant Hulk run, so it's time for reflection. I really enjoyed Mantlo's run. I start out with apprehension, because I know some people think of him as a hack, and at the beginning his writing (scripting, plotting, and characterization) were weaker than what had just come before. Turning Glenn Talbot & General Ross into villain felt like a regression. Talbot had actually been a stand-up guy for most of his history. That made the love triangle so unique, because he seemed worthy of Betty and friendly to Bruce. And while Ross had hated the Hulk for a long time, he grew to respect Bruce and care for his welfare in the years before Mantlo started, so it was shame to see that wiped away. However, it did create opportunities for new storylines and Talbot's obsession with killing the Hulk and apparent death opened the door for Betty to become a love interest again. Mantlo sent the Hulk on a world tour arc that introduced characters like Sabra and Arabian Knight and fascinating new villain team in the U-Foes. He brought Rick Jones and Betty Ross back into the picture for stints (but then had Betty flip-flop in ways that seemed strained and inauthentic). Glorian & the Shaper of World had a great appearance. The High Evolutionary attempted suicide by Hulk, and Mantlo somehow got away in the 80s with repeatedly having Bruce wish for death. Rocket Raccoon entered the mainstream. Bereet moved over from The Rampaging Hulk magazine, and she was a unique artistic visionary. As opposed to those who want a permanent status quo, I think that as a character born from transformation, it's nice to change the nature of the Hulk occasionally. Mantlo gave us a couple years of Hulk with Bruce Banner's mind, and for the most part it was really great. Dr. Kathryn Waynesboro was an interesting love interest; sadly, the Crossroads storyline removed her from the picture. Although the execution wasn't perfect, for the most part the whiplash transition from a smart Hulk to a mindless one was really done. I imagine Crossroads might have been unpopular or tedious to read monthly as released (was it?), but as a binge it was pretty good. It's a big risk. I think Mantlo left Hulk in a good spot. Unfortunately, I read ahead into Byrne's run. While I won't talk further about it now, it's a shame Byrne did follow Mantlo more organically. Nice recap. When did Mantlo start writing the Hulk ?
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Post by spoon on Sept 15, 2019 11:21:55 GMT -5
This complete Mantlo's giant Hulk run, so it's time for reflection. I really enjoyed Mantlo's run. I start out with apprehension, because I know some people think of him as a hack, and at the beginning his writing (scripting, plotting, and characterization) were weaker than what had just come before. Turning Glenn Talbot & General Ross into villain felt like a regression. Talbot had actually been a stand-up guy for most of his history. That made the love triangle so unique, because he seemed worthy of Betty and friendly to Bruce. And while Ross had hated the Hulk for a long time, he grew to respect Bruce and care for his welfare in the years before Mantlo started, so it was shame to see that wiped away. However, it did create opportunities for new storylines and Talbot's obsession with killing the Hulk and apparent death opened the door for Betty to become a love interest again. Mantlo sent the Hulk on a world tour arc that introduced characters like Sabra and Arabian Knight and fascinating new villain team in the U-Foes. He brought Rick Jones and Betty Ross back into the picture for stints (but then had Betty flip-flop in ways that seemed strained and inauthentic). Glorian & the Shaper of World had a great appearance. The High Evolutionary attempted suicide by Hulk, and Mantlo somehow got away in the 80s with repeatedly having Bruce wish for death. Rocket Raccoon entered the mainstream. Bereet moved over from The Rampaging Hulk magazine, and she was a unique artistic visionary. As opposed to those who want a permanent status quo, I think that as a character born from transformation, it's nice to change the nature of the Hulk occasionally. Mantlo gave us a couple years of Hulk with Bruce Banner's mind, and for the most part it was really great. Dr. Kathryn Waynesboro was an interesting love interest; sadly, the Crossroads storyline removed her from the picture. Although the execution wasn't perfect, for the most part the whiplash transition from a smart Hulk to a mindless one was really done. I imagine Crossroads might have been unpopular or tedious to read monthly as released (was it?), but as a binge it was pretty good. It's a big risk. I think Mantlo left Hulk in a good spot. Unfortunately, I read ahead into Byrne's run. While I won't talk further about it now, it's a shame Byrne did follow Mantlo more organically. Nice recap. When did Mantlo start writing the Hulk ? Incredible Hulk #245. So he wrote almost 70 issues of the series, plus some annuals.
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Post by Batflunkie on Sept 24, 2019 18:07:40 GMT -5
Darker Image #1; The Maxx #½-13 I remember watching the MTV cartoon when I was very young, so the series has been a part of my life longer than I care to remember. Was a long time before I realized that it was a comic book too. My favorite issue is #5 when Maxx gets transported into the world of Crappon In-A Hat
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2019 15:52:40 GMT -5
DC Archives Editions
Adam Strange Archives 1 to 3
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Post by beccabear67 on Sept 30, 2019 12:00:49 GMT -5
Avengers #137-140; re-read all of #137 and then skimmed some of the next three. Steve Englehart wasn't perfect. I don't understand why Hawkeye storms off to use the time cube to find The Black Knight unless maybe he just wanted to get away from Moondragon. I remember he ends up in the Marvel westerns time though. There are various little things that don't make sense or add up; like The Beast wanting to join at all (how convenient with a villain turning out to be The Toad who is called 'mutie' openly) and despite an explanation he had been watching old movies and it mellowed him now being a goofball and using sloppy English! I like the George Tuska art mostly, but in the letter's page people are complaining about it saying he is better with one hero to draw in Iron Man... I actually find his Iron Man (okay, it's the nose period) the one drawn least effectively here. I thought I ought to reacquaint myself with this period as I will have Avengers #125-130 & 135 coming soon.
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Post by spoon on Sept 30, 2019 21:54:09 GMT -5
I've read the entire John Byrne run (#314-319) and Allen Milgrom run (#320-330) of The Incredible Hulk, except for the annual Byrne wrote. I also read a Byrne Hulk story published in Marvel Fanfare that was apparently intended to be the next issue of his run. I believe I had only read 2 of the Byrne issues and 1 of the Milgrom issues previously.
Sometimes I think Byrne's writing comes in for criticism that's really about his personality, but I have to admit that from a writing standpoint, I actually preferred the Milgrom issues to the Byrne ones. A big part of the problem is that Byrne doesn't seem interested in building on what came before. He just takes a U-turn from what Bill Mantlo has been doing. He ignores how characters have behaved in the past. A lot of actions from characters don't trigger reactions that make sense. It seems like the goal is to reach a certain endpoint regardless of whether the journey makes sense or is earned in a storytelling sense.
Mantlo's last Hulk story, a guest appearance in Alpha Flight, had set Hulk up bounding toward the old location of Gamma Base in New Mexico. Byrne ignores the growth Bruce/Hulk showed at the end of the Crossroads arc by making the cruel monster once again. Due to a hallucinatory distraction, Doc Samson is able to knock the Hulk out. In the second issue, Samson is able to collect and separate out normal Banner cells from Hulk's body to create a separate Bruce Banner & separate Hulk. This doesn't make much sense, as Samson is psychiatrist, not some sort of biochemist, and there's no explanation for this sudden breakthrough.
While a weakened Bruce recover, the Hulk (who SHIELD wanted to kill off) escapes with the aid of Doc Samson. Samson thought he was doing a good deed, but without Banner still within him, the Hulk is even more savage than Byrne made him. It's essentially a return to the mindless Hulk of the Regression arc, and news reports even mention that people have died in the Hulk's rampage. A quartet of Avengers heavy hitters (Hercules, Iron Man, Wonder Man, and the Sub-Mariner) try to stop the Hulk, but Doc Samson dissuades them by arguing that there battle has caused a lot of destruction. At first, it seems like Byrne might be attempting rational storytelling. Maybe he'll have Samson, with his skills as a psychiatrist, talk the Hulk down with his professional skills. But no, Samson just goes after the Hulk with fisticuffs. This makes no sense, because greater physical force would be better at containing the Hulk and limiting his damage. The Avengers inexplicable agree to leave Samson to deal with this, but say he has a limited time.
A now semi-recovered Bruce, who has been joined by Betty Ross, has assembled a new group of Hulk-Busters to try to hunt down and kill the Hulk. Bruce browbeats this group by saying he knows they all disgraced in their former careers, so they have no options but to work for him. It's all very contrived and completely out of character for anything Banner had previously done. At the Hulk-Buster base, Bruce is making some observations about the transformations in the Hulk's appearance from his original grey form to his current state. Meanwhile, Samson finds and fights the Hulk in the desert, but in turns out to be a robot the Hulk-Busters are using in training. After Samson destroys the robot, four of the Hulk-Busters operating a walking war machine, inexplicably attack Samson. No reason is given whatsoever. In the attack, the other Hulk-Busters accidentally blow up a vehicle piloted by one of their members, Carolyn Parmenter, killing her. Another Hulk-Buster, Samuel J. Laroquette (who is renamed John Laroquette like the actor during the Milgrom run) is an old flame of Parmenter. He angrily, irrationally attacks Samson. Samson flicks him aside and resumes his pursuit of the Hulk.
In a particular stupid bit of writing, Laroquette vows vengeance against Samson. Aone of other Hulk-Busters call Laroquette an idiot or handcuff him or great to get him to a mental hospital. Lets break this down. The Hulk-Busters had launched an unprovoked attack on Samson. Their dialogue gives no explanation. Carolyn Parmenter is actually shot down by a laser blast from her teammates, not a blow from Samson. Samson actually tries to save Carolyn, but the craft explodes and burns her alive before he can. None of the Hulk-Buster are described as sociopaths, yet they just mildly bothered by Laroquette deciding to start an unjustified, homicidal vendetta.
In Byrne's final issue, Betty and Bruce get married after she accepted his proposal in the previous issue. Rick Jones arrives. He's a folksy throwback that shows none of the character evolution. Apparently, this is Byrne's pattern of deciding that the only "real" version of the characters is what he remembers them being in the first few issues. As the wedding is about to finish, General Thunderbolt Ross crashes it in his first appearance in almost 30 issues. He's disheveling and consumed by hatred of Banner. He holds everyone at gunpoint. When Rick drives to make a move, Gen. Ross shoots him in the abdomen.
In what might be Byrne's best writing in his short run, Betty angrily confronts her father. It's the dam bursting on pent-up anger, which makes sense from those eras during Hulk history when Thunderbolt was domineering and overprotective of her daughter, and for his efforts to thwart her romance with Bruce. It's very cathartic, and Betty seems to be standing up for herself against life-long feelings of repression. Given the exploration of Bruce's own childhood trauma and repression, we finally have a reason to see an emotional commonality in Bruce and Betty. There relationship makes more sense as kindred spirits. Betty demands her dad shoot her if he's going to shoot anyone. He collapses in shame and defeat. Rick says he can keep it together for a few minutes before going to the hospital. He's been waiting a long time to see this. So remarkably, Betty and Bruce finish their ceremony, while Rick lies there with a bullet in his guts. Meanwhile, the Hulk escapes Samson and the Hulk-Busters. Not much happens with the Hulk here, except a couple fake-outs to make readers think he'll be the wedding crasher.
The Marvel Fanfare is an issue full of double page spreads in which the Hulk meets an old Native American in the desert and ingests hallucinogens. The old man turns out to be the Scourge and kills the villains Hammer and Anvil. Not much happens, but it's interesting artistically.
So I read various website about the Byrne run. Supposedly, Byrne's plan was to have Hulk killed, but have Bruce consumed by a Dr. Jekyll like lust for power and transform himself to a new Hulk, who was like the original Hulk from the first 6 Silver Age issues. Apparently, he didn't like what the Hulk had become and had this contrived plan to kill the "new" Hulk and bring back what he thought was the genuine one. It's contrast to the vision of the Hulk that I grew to enjoy during the latter part of Mantlo's run, where Mantlo explore the notion of continuing transformation. I think it's to see Hulk change at various points and not demand a restoration.
Also, I read up on the various accounts of Byrne was removed by the book. One account is that Shooter rejected Byrne's two-page spread story (the one that was eventually printed in Fanfare) and either fired Byrne or caused him to quit. Shooter's version of course paints everyone else badly. According to Shooter, Hulk editor Denny O'Neil was concentrating too much on his freelance writing and dumping a lot of his editorial work on his assistant editors. O'Neil was missing problems, and Shooter admonished him. Mindful of the criticism that he had to be a more active editor, in Shooter's version, O'Neil rejected the Fanfare story on his own. However, when talking to Byrne, O'Neil blamed Shooter for the decision. Byrne believed O'Neil and rather than wait for Shooter's explanation, he quit Hulk in protest. What's the truth? I dunno.
Maybe in a few days, I come back with a post about the Milgrom run.
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Post by profh0011 on Oct 1, 2019 12:08:55 GMT -5
While I was having my car checked out yesterday, I re-read some more of the Alex Raymond FLASH GORDON Sunday pages. Being so familiar with the 3 Universal serials, it's surprising to see how different things were in the papers, or what from the papers made it into the serials, and where. Right now, I'm plowing thru the story of " Azura Queen Of Magic". In the comic, she had NO connection whatsoever to Ming the Merciless, her empire was entirely in a series of underground caverns on Mongo, and she wore, if anything, EVEN SKIMPIER outfits than Princess Aura!! Also, the invisibility machne that Dr. Zarkov created to make Flash invisible turned up in THIS story. This should not be a surprise, as it was featured in the 1st (1936) serial, not long AFTER the "Tournament Of Death". But in the comics, the "Tournament" was the huge ultra-violent CLIMAX to the first big storyline in the series, after which, Flash & Barin went their separate ways for a long stretch, to "win" the kingdoms they were allegedly granted as winners of the Tournament. The whole thing was stacked in Ming's favor! Anyone entering the tournament has more than a 99% chance of DYING, and if they did win, they had to find a way to conquer a wild territory on the planet that already had its own inhabitants. All in all, a seemingly sure-fire way of Ming to keep potential opponents out of his way. Azura in the comics: Azura in the movie serial: When the original owners of Universal went bankrupt and were booted out as part of a "hostile takeover", the new owners deciced NOT to make any horror movies. But they did decide to make a sequel to " FLASH GORDON"-- the single project that had pushed them into bankruptcy. However, " FLASH GORDON'S TRIP TO MARS" had a much-lower budget, a far more circular, repetitive plot, and had nearly all its violence and sex toned down for family audiences.
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Post by Graphic Autist on Oct 1, 2019 15:15:31 GMT -5
I recently finished The Brave And The Bold Bronze Age Omnibus Volume 2, which contain issues 111-156.
What a joy this was! I had owned a few of these issues as a kid in the 70s before I really started "collecting" comics. I didn't realize at that time how out-of-character Batman was in this series, but it was a lot of fun! Seeing Bruce Wayne and Barry Allen go disco dancing was especially hilarious. I'm really glad I decided to buy this volume...Jim Aparo was an amazing Batman artist, and Bob Haney wrote some very enjoyable one-and-done stories quite consistently for this series.
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Post by profh0011 on Oct 1, 2019 18:57:35 GMT -5
I've seen several episodes of THE BRAVE AND THE BOLD cartoon show, and was amazed at how fun so much of it was. Even though, in some episodes, Batman is COMPLETELY out of place and out of his depth (like when the Green Lantern Corps showed up for a brief cameo, and impossibly, HE turned out to be more competent dealing with their kind of problem than they were).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2019 21:10:56 GMT -5
I've seen several episodes of THE BRAVE AND THE BOLD cartoon show, and was amazed at how fun so much of it was. Even though, in some episodes, Batman is COMPLETELY out of place and out of his depth (like when the Green Lantern Corps showed up for a brief cameo, and impossibly, HE turned out to be more competent dealing with their kind of problem than they were). That's the beauty of this cartoon series and you describe it to a "T".
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
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Post by shaxper on Oct 1, 2019 21:16:48 GMT -5
Just had a most unusual reading experience. A student of mine recommended I read Assassination Classroom the other day. I'm no different than most older comic fans who don't really know what to make of manga and treat it like the elephant in the medium that is becoming increasingly difficult to ignore. I've tried a few mangas my students have recommended before without feeling particularly wowed, but I really respect this student's tastes, so I gave it a whirl. Wow. I just binge-read eight issues in one sitting (which is as far as the volume I purchased goes), and while there are many trappings of the genre that still aren't working for me, the essence of this thing is pure magic -- a seemingly all-powerful, creepy looking monster with an expressionless cartoon smile and giant tentacles has annihilated the moon and threatened to do the same to the Earth in one year's time. In the meantime, he has demanded that he be allowed to teach the most hopeless kids in one school in America, promising not to harm them and allowing them to attempt to kill him. The thing is, he's the teacher we all wish we had (and that I strive to be), truly and honestly caring for the kids, using his threat to blow up the world as motivation for them to find the hero within themselves. He actually teaches all the subjects (and does them justice!), all while kids repeatedly assault him, and he offers feedback on their attempts. It's actually a brilliant metaphor for public education, and anyone who has ever been a teacher or a student would really get a kick out of it. Prince Hal, you may want to check this out. I'm not sure I'll keep reading beyond volume one. I adore the premise, but the genre may be too impenetrable for me to want to continue beyond this first cursory outing. I'm not invested in the other characters in this series who all feel like the uni-dimensional types I've seen in manga before. It's the teacher-monster that draws me in, and I'm not sure he alone can carry me through the twenty remaining volumes.
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Post by Prince Hal on Oct 1, 2019 21:27:19 GMT -5
I'll take a look at this, shaxper. Thanks for the tip! (Although I think I have some of the same issues with manga as you. )
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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 1, 2019 21:27:38 GMT -5
Avengers #137-140; re-read all of #137 and then skimmed some of the next three. Steve Englehart wasn't perfect. I don't understand why Hawkeye storms off to use the time cube to find The Black Knight unless maybe he just wanted to get away from Moondragon. I remember he ends up in the Marvel westerns time though. There are various little things that don't make sense or add up; like The Beast wanting to join at all (how convenient with a villain turning out to be The Toad who is called 'mutie' openly) and despite an explanation he had been watching old movies and it mellowed him now being a goofball and using sloppy English! I like the George Tuska art mostly, but in the letter's page people are complaining about it saying he is better with one hero to draw in Iron Man... I actually find his Iron Man (okay, it's the nose period) the one drawn least effectively here. I thought I ought to reacquaint myself with this period as I will have Avengers #125-130 & 135 coming soon. Man, I love those Tuska issues. I re-read them just about every year. I love that Pietro panel.
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Post by Mormel on Oct 3, 2019 5:08:54 GMT -5
Uncanny X-Men #248, in which the X-Men fight Nanny and the Orphan Maker and Storm supposedly 'dies'.
I still don't care for this particular issue.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2019 7:13:05 GMT -5
Marvel Masterworks
Not Brand Echh: Vol. 1 Sgt. Fury: Vol. 1-2
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