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Post by MDG on Nov 26, 2019 13:52:47 GMT -5
... I totally agree that the run is uneven. It's also frequently utterly ridiculous, in terms of the plotting, character motivations, the science, and things like the Human Torch's "nova flame"... It probably seems especially ridiculous to someone like me who is a much bigger fan of Marvel's more street-level heroes like Spider-Man and Daredevil. I also have a bit of a love/hate relationship with Kirby's artwork: it's dynamic as all hell, but it's also frequently kinda ugly, and the guy just couldn't draw attractive women. But, the sheer imagination and world building that Kirby and Lee cram into the thing, plus the highly readable characterisation of the bickering foursome, and the great supporting cast of Alicia Masters, Black Panther, Wyatt Wingfoot, Crystal and the other Inhumans, frequently make for some great comics. My favourite period of the Silver Age Fantastic Four is probably from around #35 to around #70-ish, although it still suffers from being rather hit and miss even in that period. .... I agree with most of this (except the piece about Kirby being unable to draw attractive women). There's an excitement when it feels like they're building this without a plan, without a net, and frankly, without a real editor.
I don't think you can discount the contribution Sinnott makes when he comes on--he seems to understand what Kirby is doing in a way that the other inkers didn't, and the art has a real modern look--still!
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Post by kirby101 on Nov 26, 2019 17:20:29 GMT -5
IMHO FF from the mid 30s through the 60s was perhaps the most creative run in the history of comics. From the Frightful Four to Dragon Man to The Battle of the Baxter Building, the Inhumans, the Galactus Trilogy (often mentioned as the best story in comics) then issue #51 with the Negative Zone(often mentioned as the best single issue in comics) The the Black Panther, the Doom/Surfer story (a personal favorite) The Kree, Him. It was still strong throught the 80s with the great Latveria/Doom story and Annual 6 with Annihulus (maybe Kirby's best work on the FF). This was a remarkable, unparrelled run. I don't think it slowed until the 90s, when Kirby was just getting tired of being at Marvel.
By the 40's Kirby was largely doing the stories on his own, with Stan writing the script after the art. So that it moved from character based to a wide open sci-fi fest is not surprising.
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Post by beccabear67 on Nov 27, 2019 14:37:47 GMT -5
I remember having FF #55, 56 & 57 (Surfer, Klaw, Doom) and thinking they were the best three consecutive issues of a comic ever. #51 was one Jim Shooter would write about as a great example of a superhero comic story. I had #49 & a slightly lower grade #50 and never got to actually read #48 until decades later. I remember liking Chic Stone inking some of the earlier issues, he was always good on building or stone backgrounds, but Joe Sinnott is the quintessential Marvel inker to me, excellent on everyone (okay, perhaps Heal Adams and he might not be a great match, I can't recall if I ever saw that pairing though). I call Sid Greene DC's Joe Sinnott.
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Post by kirby101 on Nov 27, 2019 16:16:21 GMT -5
Joe inked Neal on his brief Thor stint. 180 & 181
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Post by Farrar on Nov 27, 2019 16:43:00 GMT -5
...By the time we get to the 40s, some stagnation is starting to set in, and so Lee and Kirby start looking outside of the team for new ideas. We meet The Black Panther, the Inhumans, Silver Surfer, Galactus, and The Kree, and experience The Negative Zone. By the time of the 50s, each of these new characters/concepts seems to be sharing regular space with the team, as if even Lee and Kirby are tired of the Four and would rather check in on Black Bolt, Silver Surfer, and whatever is brewing in the Negative Zone this month instead... From what I have read (mostly in The Jack Kirby Collector), Martin Goodman was constantly trying to renegotiate that restrictive distribution deal with Independent News. In 1966 he thought he was making headway in this regard and he anticipated being able to add more titles. As part of this he planned to reconfigure the features in the split books, Tales of Suspense, Tales to Astonish, and Strange Tales and then eventually spin off the more popular characters--Cap, Iron Man and the Hulk--into their own solo books. He'd need to fill their voids in the split books, so he ordered Stan to come up with new characters. Stan of course turned to Kirby, who already had some new characters/character designs up his sleeve that he'd been "saving" (it's been speculated) for his own use if he ever left Marvel. Kirby inserted these characters into the FF book, and also created some new ones. The result was that the Inhumans royal family, Wyatt Wingfoot, T'Challa, the Surfer, et al., all burst onto the scene one right after another. The idea was that they'd be tried out in the FF, and then the more popular characters would eventually receive their own features in the split books. This is why we see, for example, Wyatt with what could be termed his own supporting cast--the Coach, the Coach's wife, Whitey Mullins the football hero--in a couple of issues of FF. Well, as we know Goodman was unable to renegotiate the deal at that time (it would expire later on, in 1968), so the plans he had for a 1966 expansion went on the shelf and the new characters remained in the FF book for a while. One unfortunate result of this was that some of the new characters' storylines were abruptly dropped, such as Wyatt's football story. A positive effect was that including all these different characters in one series gave the FF book a rich, expansive quality and made it stand out from other superhero comics that tended to concentrate on the eponymous characters only. This approach made the FF comic seem very innovative for that period, as has been noted by many in this thread.
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Post by kirby101 on Nov 27, 2019 17:56:46 GMT -5
And at the same time Kirby and Lee were creating these in FF, over in Thor they had the High Evolutionary, The Rigelians and Ego. A amazing period for Marvel.
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Post by Icctrombone on Nov 27, 2019 20:30:05 GMT -5
The run from around 30 -70 was really the making of the Marvel universe , but I think the Inhumans were and are overrated.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Nov 27, 2019 21:48:31 GMT -5
I re-read one of my favourite Silver Age Marvel comics tonight, Nick Fury, Agent Of S.H.E.I.L.D. #3 from 1968... The story is a horror-themed tale called "Dark Moon Rise, Hell-Hound Kill" written and beautifully drawn by Jim Steranko. I used to have this story in an old UK black and white Alan Class reprint comic when I was in my teens, but I recently treated myself to an original U.S. printing, as part of an order with mycomicshop.com. The done-in-one story is set on the foggy moors of the Scottish Highlands, not far from Loch Ness. Nick Fury is summoned to the suitably spooky looking Castle Ravenlock from across the Atlantic by his old war-time buddy, Ken Astor. Unfortunately, Ken is already dead by the time Fury arrives -- seemingly killed by the supernatural "Hell-hound of Ravenlock" and a victim of an old curse. The adventure unabashedly homages the Sherlock Holmes' classic, The Hound of the Baskervilles, but with added ghosts, seances, secret passages, and a highly improbable Nazi twist at the end. Silver Age comics...you gotta love 'em! Steranko's art is absolutely gorgeous throughout; almost every panel is a work of art in its own right. And while the writing is a little clunky in places, the story is certainly a gripping one and just drips with a wonderfully sinister gothic atmosphere. Though I've read it numerous times, it's always a pleasure to revisit "Dark Moon Rise, Hell-Hound Kill", never a chore. This is about as good as comics got in the 1960s.
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Post by Cei-U! on Nov 27, 2019 23:16:08 GMT -5
I have the complete run of Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD, and I agree: those first three issues ARE "about as good as comics got in the 1980s."
Cei-U! I summon the "Amen!"
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Post by berkley on Nov 28, 2019 0:07:51 GMT -5
I agree, and I'll add in the 1970s, 1990s, 2000s, and 2010s as well!
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Post by beccabear67 on Nov 28, 2019 14:24:16 GMT -5
Sinnott over Adams is pretty darned good!
I read Amazing Spider-Man #191-193. I enjoy that one centers around the then touring King Tut exhibit (ut's used to draw attention away from the Dresden exhibit a baddie really wants to loot). Also great fun to see Spider-Man shackled to J. Jonah Jameson, save both their butts, and then JJJ goes right back into ranting and blaming mode (but with a kicker once he's alone with himself after that). Keith Pollard, and on two of the three, Jim Mooney, did a great job on the art! Now I have a mini-run of 189-195... if I can find 196-199 that would be a good addition as I bought 198 off the stands back then (with Annual 13, and the Marvel Tales reprint of Aunt May marrying Doc Ock... my first few 'floppy' Spider-Man comics). I have 200 but with the Punisher being in them I wonder if I would want 201 & 202 again? Dazzler in 203, meh. I have 204-206 though, would be an impressive run to have 189-206 plus Annuals 12 & 13.
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Post by Icctrombone on Nov 28, 2019 19:21:12 GMT -5
I never saw Jim Mooney do a bad inking job.
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Post by Confessor on Nov 28, 2019 19:29:37 GMT -5
I never saw Jim Mooney do a bad inking job. Agreed. I think Al Milgrom pencils and Jim Mooney inks is an underrated combo.
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Post by Icctrombone on Nov 28, 2019 20:27:21 GMT -5
Milgrom was always hit or miss for me. Nice work early in his career but I thought his Avengers work was lack luster.
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Post by Confessor on Nov 29, 2019 2:11:42 GMT -5
Milgrom was always hit or miss for me. Nice work early in his career but I thought his Avengers work was lack luster. I'm not familiar with his work on Avengers, but I see from Wikipedia that it was roughly the same time that he was working on Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man with Mooney. I thought Mooney's inks really worked well with Milgrom's pencils. Who was inking him on The Avengers? I also rather like Milgrom as an inker BTW.
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