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Post by spoon on Jan 17, 2015 18:30:46 GMT -5
With Daredevil 291, I finished reading the Ann Nocenti run of Daredevil the other day. Although it had its flaws, there were good points that would merit re-reading.
The Nocenti run could be broken up into phases. She actually tends to drop supporting characters, change focus, etc. between phases. The early issues (#236, 238-247) are the worst of the bunch. They beat you over the head with ideology at the expense of good scripting. I'd actually advise a reader to skip past that era first at the risk of turning them off Nocenti. I do feel bad that Steve Englehart, who wrote #237, feels that what Nocenti did in the prior issue made his planned direction untenable. Englehart's done a lot of writing I like elsewhere.
Nocenti starts to move in the right direction in #248, and then the series takes a big leap forward when John Romita, Jr. in #250. This period goes through #260 (with #261 as a transition issue between periods). This is the closest period she has to classic Daredevil. Kingpin is the mastermind. There's a lot of street level action. It's also the period when she does the most of develop a rogues gallery, including Typhoid Mary.
Then #262 through #276 lets Daredevil loose from his moorings. This is where a lot of the demonic stuff comes into play. After the physical brutality that ended the last period, Nocenti puts DD through the mental ringer. There's a dividing line around #271, where Nocenti sends DD out on the road. It seems that he recovers his bearings a bit. I think JRjr's best DD work might be around this time. It's also when Nocenti does her best job at conveying political messages that are actually some convincing and don't drag down the story.
Around #277-282 is sort of a continuation of what's gone before. However, the quality takes a drop. The demonic aspects from the 260s come back, but much less effectively. The socio-political stuff becomes more disruptive and less convincing. I think JRjr might actually backslide a bit in quality, too. #283 probably fits pretty plotwise with the next era, but in terms of quality, it's a turkey that belongs in this period.
The final period from #284-291 marks DD's return to NYC and somewhat of a return to the status quo (actually got back to the city in #283). Some old supporting characters and villains return to the series. We're back with street level action that people associate with DD and Lee Weeks is a good fit for this. Nocenti draws a bit on DD's history by giving him amnesia and assuming bits of his father's identity. The political aspect of the writing is a mixed bag - not as good or as bad as Nocenti has been at her extremes on DD. Nocenti does some damage to DD's reputation, then has that reputation repaired a bit in her last issue. She also has him recover a bit of his confidence and moral footing in the last few issues. It feels like a bit of a set-up to a more traditional run. I'm wondering if that was editorial imposed or if Ann Nocenti just felt like going in that direction. At times, it almost felt like Nocenti feld Matt Murdock need to apologize for his whiteness or his maleness or being a lawyer or his heroism or his confidence. Here she's seems to think he's okay.
It might seem like a lot of criticism in there, but there's actually quite a bit that I like.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 18, 2015 10:04:15 GMT -5
I've read a bit of that run... I think one of the bad parts.. I mostly only remember I didn't like it much. You should post that review in the 'series overview' thread, Spoon, it'll just get lost over here!
Read the 2nd vol. of the Captain Britain UK stuff today... not at all what I expected. The first, oh, 3rd or so it extremely generic.. the 'plot' credit is Larry Lieber, so that's probably why. There's 3 stories, each totally different, and each you could have inserted any superhero (or adventurer) and had it work just as well. I also didn't like that they made his staff more like a magic wand and less like Starman's cosmic rod (which it was before)... very disappointing. Then we have a two parted from Marvel Team up, where he and Spidey fight Arcade, by Claremont and Byrne, which is pretty fun.
The rest of the book is the Otherworld saga, which is really a Black Knight story, not sure why they didn't package it as such. Capt. Britain is unconscious and or amnesiac for 1/2 of it, and is a bit player in the rest. It has some great moments... the art is sometimes brilliant, but inconsistent. The plot is pretty straight Arthurian fare, but fun. Funny to see the stylistic different, as it's very much done in the 2000 AD Style.. black and white... tons of panels per page (8-12), but 3 pages at a time.
I'm glad I got to read it, but I'm not sure I'd recommend it unless you're a big fan of Arthurian lore.
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Post by fanboystranger on Jan 18, 2015 14:26:41 GMT -5
With Daredevil 291, I finished reading the Ann Nocenti run of Daredevil the other day. Although it had its flaws, there were good points that would merit re-reading. The Nocenti run could be broken up into phases. She actually tends to drop supporting characters, change focus, etc. between phases. The early issues (#236, 238-247) are the worst of the bunch. They beat you over the head with ideology at the expense of good scripting. I'd actually advise a reader to skip past that era first at the risk of turning them off Nocenti. I do feel bad that Steve Englehart, who wrote #237, feels that what Nocenti did in the prior issue made his planned direction untenable. Englehart's done a lot of writing I like elsewhere. Nocenti starts to move in the right direction in #248, and then the series takes a big leap forward when John Romita, Jr. in #250. This period goes through #260 (with #261 as a transition issue between periods). This is the closest period she has to classic Daredevil. Kingpin is the mastermind. There's a lot of street level action. It's also the period when she does the most of develop a rogues gallery, including Typhoid Mary. Then #262 through #276 lets Daredevil loose from his moorings. This is where a lot of the demonic stuff comes into play. After the physical brutality that ended the last period, Nocenti puts DD through the mental ringer. There's a dividing line around #271, where Nocenti sends DD out on the road. It seems that he recovers his bearings a bit. I think JRjr's best DD work might be around this time. It's also when Nocenti does her best job at conveying political messages that are actually some convincing and don't drag down the story. Around #277-282 is sort of a continuation of what's gone before. However, the quality takes a drop. The demonic aspects from the 260s come back, but much less effectively. The socio-political stuff becomes more disruptive and less convincing. I think JRjr might actually backslide a bit in quality, too. #283 probably fits pretty plotwise with the next era, but in terms of quality, it's a turkey that belongs in this period. The final period from #284-291 marks DD's return to NYC and somewhat of a return to the status quo (actually got back to the city in #283). Some old supporting characters and villains return to the series. We're back with street level action that people associate with DD and Lee Weeks is a good fit for this. Nocenti draws a bit on DD's history by giving him amnesia and assuming bits of his father's identity. The political aspect of the writing is a mixed bag - not as good or as bad as Nocenti has been at her extremes on DD. Nocenti does some damage to DD's reputation, then has that reputation repaired a bit in her last issue. She also has him recover a bit of his confidence and moral footing in the last few issues. It feels like a bit of a set-up to a more traditional run. I'm wondering if that was editorial imposed or if Ann Nocenti just felt like going in that direction. At times, it almost felt like Nocenti feld Matt Murdock need to apologize for his whiteness or his maleness or being a lawyer or his heroism or his confidence. Here she's seems to think he's okay. It might seem like a lot of criticism in there, but there's actually quite a bit that I like. That's a really great assessment of Nocenti's run, and I agree with pretty much everything you've written. Nocenti is my second favorite DD writer behind Miller, and while her writing could be all of the place and often politically didactic, the best adjective I have for her run is "ambitious". It would have been easy for her to coast on the fumes of Born Again, but she never quite did what people were expecting. A great example is that it would have easy to just put Matt and Karen Page back together again, but Ann emphasized that this was a complicated relationship where they had to re-earn each others' trust. Miller may have opened the door for a more psychological examination of Matt Murdock, but it's Ann Nocenti who really ran with it.
Also, JRJr's pencils never looked better than when they were inked by Al Williamson.
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Post by spoon on Jan 18, 2015 16:37:02 GMT -5
With Daredevil 291, I finished reading the Ann Nocenti run of Daredevil the other day. Although it had its flaws, there were good points that would merit re-reading. The Nocenti run could be broken up into phases. She actually tends to drop supporting characters, change focus, etc. between phases. The early issues (#236, 238-247) are the worst of the bunch. They beat you over the head with ideology at the expense of good scripting. I'd actually advise a reader to skip past that era first at the risk of turning them off Nocenti. I do feel bad that Steve Englehart, who wrote #237, feels that what Nocenti did in the prior issue made his planned direction untenable. Englehart's done a lot of writing I like elsewhere. Nocenti starts to move in the right direction in #248, and then the series takes a big leap forward when John Romita, Jr. in #250. This period goes through #260 (with #261 as a transition issue between periods). This is the closest period she has to classic Daredevil. Kingpin is the mastermind. There's a lot of street level action. It's also the period when she does the most of develop a rogues gallery, including Typhoid Mary. Then #262 through #276 lets Daredevil loose from his moorings. This is where a lot of the demonic stuff comes into play. After the physical brutality that ended the last period, Nocenti puts DD through the mental ringer. There's a dividing line around #271, where Nocenti sends DD out on the road. It seems that he recovers his bearings a bit. I think JRjr's best DD work might be around this time. It's also when Nocenti does her best job at conveying political messages that are actually some convincing and don't drag down the story. Around #277-282 is sort of a continuation of what's gone before. However, the quality takes a drop. The demonic aspects from the 260s come back, but much less effectively. The socio-political stuff becomes more disruptive and less convincing. I think JRjr might actually backslide a bit in quality, too. #283 probably fits pretty plotwise with the next era, but in terms of quality, it's a turkey that belongs in this period. The final period from #284-291 marks DD's return to NYC and somewhat of a return to the status quo (actually got back to the city in #283). Some old supporting characters and villains return to the series. We're back with street level action that people associate with DD and Lee Weeks is a good fit for this. Nocenti draws a bit on DD's history by giving him amnesia and assuming bits of his father's identity. The political aspect of the writing is a mixed bag - not as good or as bad as Nocenti has been at her extremes on DD. Nocenti does some damage to DD's reputation, then has that reputation repaired a bit in her last issue. She also has him recover a bit of his confidence and moral footing in the last few issues. It feels like a bit of a set-up to a more traditional run. I'm wondering if that was editorial imposed or if Ann Nocenti just felt like going in that direction. At times, it almost felt like Nocenti feld Matt Murdock need to apologize for his whiteness or his maleness or being a lawyer or his heroism or his confidence. Here she's seems to think he's okay. It might seem like a lot of criticism in there, but there's actually quite a bit that I like. That's a really great assessment of Nocenti's run, and I agree with pretty much everything you've written. Nocenti is my second favorite DD writer behind Miller, and while her writing could be all of the place and often politically didactic, the best adjective I have for her run is "ambitious". It would have been easy for her to coast on the fumes of Born Again, but she never quite did what people were expecting. A great example is that it would have easy to just put Matt and Karen Page back together again, but Ann emphasized that this was a complicated relationship where they had to re-earn each others' trust. Miller may have opened the door for a more psychological examination of Matt Murdock, but it's Ann Nocenti who really ran with it.
Also, JRJr's pencils never looked better than when they were inked by Al Williamson.
Yes, I think ambituous is a good word. She wanted to try new things, rather than just churning out a convention run. But honestly, I do wish someone had been able to work off of the ending to Born Again for a while before going in a new direction. Miller had started a basis for DD as protector of the neighbor who is really integrated with the fabric of the community. Nocenti reversed that too quickly to make it adversarial. And although I agree that logically Matt and Karen wouldn't have a smooth reconciliation, I think that subplot became too much of a vehicle for Nocenti's politics. It would be more apt if she made Karen skeptical about people in general. But it became about Karen not liking that Matt hits people. Nocenti became obsessed with the notion that even violence in the defense of others in the most emergent circumstances is terrible and would generate a negative response. In reality, I think most people recognize the need to protect others can mean force. And even someone who's been the victim of violence (and then protected by DD) could accept it on either rational or irrational levels.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2015 3:21:51 GMT -5
I LOVE Miller art. I don't prefer the color stuff in DKR, but I would say I like the art in that better than nearly every other Batman comic ever made.
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Post by dbutler69 on Jan 19, 2015 9:02:24 GMT -5
I'm reading through a whole bunch of random issues of Master of Kung Fu. I find it very enjoyable, but it doesn't lend itself well to just picking up random issues and reading them. There are a lot of characters, and a lot of subplots going on, and it takes a while to figure all this out. A newbie can feel a bit lost, or at least like he/she is missing something. Regardless, I've found it a highly enjoyable series. The best issues by far are the Gulacy issues. It was a sad day when he left the title. I do like the Jim Craig stuff, though, and the Zeck stuff is pretty good but frankly doesn't hold a candle to Gulacy's best.
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Post by paulie on Jan 19, 2015 11:01:49 GMT -5
I'm reading through a whole bunch of random issues of Master of Kung Fu. I find it very enjoyable, but it doesn't lend itself well to just picking up random issues and reading them. There are a lot of characters, and a lot of subplots going on, and it takes a while to figure all this out. A newbie can feel a bit lost, or at least like he/she is missing something. Regardless, I've found it a highly enjoyable series. The best issues by far are the Gulacy issues. It was a sad day when he left the title. I do like the Jim Craig stuff, though, and the Zeck stuff is pretty good but frankly doesn't hold a candle to Gulacy's best. The title reaches another huge peak when Gene Day starts pencilling with issue 100.
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Post by paulie on Jan 19, 2015 11:04:46 GMT -5
With Daredevil 291, I finished reading the Ann Nocenti run of Daredevil the other day. Although it had its flaws, there were good points that would merit re-reading. The Nocenti run could be broken up into phases. She actually tends to drop supporting characters, change focus, etc. between phases. The early issues (#236, 238-247) are the worst of the bunch. They beat you over the head with ideology at the expense of good scripting. I'd actually advise a reader to skip past that era first at the risk of turning them off Nocenti. I do feel bad that Steve Englehart, who wrote #237, feels that what Nocenti did in the prior issue made his planned direction untenable. Englehart's done a lot of writing I like elsewhere. Nocenti starts to move in the right direction in #248, and then the series takes a big leap forward when John Romita, Jr. in #250. This period goes through #260 (with #261 as a transition issue between periods). This is the closest period she has to classic Daredevil. Kingpin is the mastermind. There's a lot of street level action. It's also the period when she does the most of develop a rogues gallery, including Typhoid Mary. Then #262 through #276 lets Daredevil loose from his moorings. This is where a lot of the demonic stuff comes into play. After the physical brutality that ended the last period, Nocenti puts DD through the mental ringer. There's a dividing line around #271, where Nocenti sends DD out on the road. It seems that he recovers his bearings a bit. I think JRjr's best DD work might be around this time. It's also when Nocenti does her best job at conveying political messages that are actually some convincing and don't drag down the story. Around #277-282 is sort of a continuation of what's gone before. However, the quality takes a drop. The demonic aspects from the 260s come back, but much less effectively. The socio-political stuff becomes more disruptive and less convincing. I think JRjr might actually backslide a bit in quality, too. #283 probably fits pretty plotwise with the next era, but in terms of quality, it's a turkey that belongs in this period. The final period from #284-291 marks DD's return to NYC and somewhat of a return to the status quo (actually got back to the city in #283). Some old supporting characters and villains return to the series. We're back with street level action that people associate with DD and Lee Weeks is a good fit for this. Nocenti draws a bit on DD's history by giving him amnesia and assuming bits of his father's identity. The political aspect of the writing is a mixed bag - not as good or as bad as Nocenti has been at her extremes on DD. Nocenti does some damage to DD's reputation, then has that reputation repaired a bit in her last issue. She also has him recover a bit of his confidence and moral footing in the last few issues. It feels like a bit of a set-up to a more traditional run. I'm wondering if that was editorial imposed or if Ann Nocenti just felt like going in that direction. At times, it almost felt like Nocenti feld Matt Murdock need to apologize for his whiteness or his maleness or being a lawyer or his heroism or his confidence. Here she's seems to think he's okay. It might seem like a lot of criticism in there, but there's actually quite a bit that I like. That's a really great assessment of Nocenti's run, and I agree with pretty much everything you've written. Nocenti is my second favorite DD writer behind Miller, and while her writing could be all of the place and often politically didactic, the best adjective I have for her run is "ambitious". It would have been easy for her to coast on the fumes of Born Again, but she never quite did what people were expecting. A great example is that it would have easy to just put Matt and Karen Page back together again, but Ann emphasized that this was a complicated relationship where they had to re-earn each others' trust. Miller may have opened the door for a more psychological examination of Matt Murdock, but it's Ann Nocenti who really ran with it.
Also, JRJr's pencils never looked better than when they were inked by Al Williamson.
DD was a late career highlight for Al Williamson. He was really doing some stunning work.
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Post by badwolf on Jan 19, 2015 12:01:30 GMT -5
I read my Creepy Corben book over the weekend: I used to hate "humorous" horror stories (which most of these are), but while I still prefer serious stuff, this was a lot of fun. The art reproduction seems very well-done although I sometimes find Corben's color images difficult to "read" by their very nature. It's funny to me that Doug Moench's writing style here is not too dissimilar in tone from the Batman work he did with Kelley Jones. Tho' I think he was tripping when he wrote "The Slipped Mickey Click Flip!"
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Post by Paste Pot Paul on Jan 19, 2015 16:16:06 GMT -5
I've been reading some classic Avengers lately(amongst a "few" other books), 17-28 so far, and have come to the conclusion that Hawkeye is/was an absolute asshat. He whines about everything and the constant backchat is grating. He is like every jerk smartmouth kid you have to deal with as an adult, and I frankly just want to punch him in the face. God he reminds me of an old guy at work who moans about everything.
Its also very noticable the difference in Captain America, hes actually fallible here, not the Uberhero they have turned him into, well before they made him 90 years old. In some ways I like it, it humanises him to a degree, but I'm glad its not too far from here that they start to treat him with respect and his real leadership skills come through.
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Post by Hoosier X on Jan 19, 2015 19:04:46 GMT -5
I've been reading some classic Avengers lately(amongst a "few" other books), 17-28 so far, and have come to the conclusion that Hawkeye is/was an absolute asshat. He whines about everything and the constant backchat is grating. He is like evty jerk smartmouth kid you have to deal with as an adult, and I frankly just want to punch him in the face. God he reminds me of an old guy at work who moans about everything. Its also very noticable the difference in Captain America, hes actually fallible here, not the Uberhero they have turned him into, well before they made him 90 years old. In some ways I like it, it humanises him to a degree, but I'm glad its not too far from here that they start to treat him with respect and his real leadership skills come through. This is such a great period for the Avengers. I much prefer Wanda with black hair like she is in the original comics. (I hear she sometimes gets recolored as a redhead in reprints.) And her powers! You never know what's going to happen when she points at the bad guy! Either a robot blows up or a vase of water falls over and gets the bad guy wet.
Cap's Kooky Kwartet is one of my favorite line-ups because of how low-powered they are. It just gets ridiculous when you have Thor AND Iron Man AND one or two other powerhouses. But the Kwartet really came through with skill and determination (and a little deus ex machina magic from Wanda every once in a while).
The Swordsman, Power Man, the Enchantress, Dr. Doom, Kang, the return of the Wasp and Goliath. Yeah, there are a lot of cool stories in this batch. Some great art by guys like Don Heck and Wally Wood!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2015 20:44:50 GMT -5
I've been reading some classic Avengers lately(amongst a "few" other books), 17-28 so far, and have come to the conclusion that Hawkeye is/was an absolute asshat. He whines about everything and the constant backchat is grating. He is like every jerk smartmouth kid you have to deal with as an adult, and I frankly just want to punch him in the face. God he reminds me of an old guy at work who moans about everything. Its also very noticable the difference in Captain America, hes actually fallible here, not the Uberhero they have turned him into, well before they made him 90 years old. In some ways I like it, it humanises him to a degree, but I'm glad its not too far from here that they start to treat him with respect and his real leadership skills come through. Hawkeye IS a CLASSIC asshat. ESPECIALLY when Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver first joined the team. Some of the things he said to Scarlet Witch, I had to remind myself of WHEN those comics were made. Because: WOW. What a true sh!tb@x.
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Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
Making comics!
Posts: 3,949
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Post by Crimebuster on Jan 19, 2015 21:04:49 GMT -5
I love Hawkeye! He has a massive chip on his shoulder in those early issues. It's a classic defensive mechanism. Once he finally feels accepted, he flips - he's still an a-hole at times, but he's fiercely loyal to his teammates, as the Avengers are pretty much all he has and all that's important to him. He had a great long-term character arc over the first 20 years of the title.
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Post by Hoosier X on Jan 19, 2015 21:21:34 GMT -5
Oh, Clint!
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Post by Phil Maurice on Jan 19, 2015 21:53:03 GMT -5
Hawkeye IS a CLASSIC asshat. ESPECIALLY when Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver first joined the team. Some of the things he said to Scarlet Witch, I had to remind myself of WHEN those comics were made. Because: WOW. What a true sh!tb@x. Oh, but it went on. Creepily and embarrassingly so with Wanda while he was in that ludicrous Siegfried and Roy outfit:
And then all over again with Natasha:
Hopefully, the Hawk is a little more centered and focused these days.
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