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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 9, 2024 18:04:03 GMT -5
I got no dog in this fight because I've never read Sins Past and likely never will. But I've known more than enough girls with Daddy issues to say that it's not remotely unthinkable for someone Gwen's age to get involved with someone Norman Osborne's age. Now...if it makes sense for those two characters...I'll remain scrupulously neutral. Very few people criticizing Sins Past has argued that its unthinkable because of the age difference. Certainly nobody in the current discussion. In an effort to make comics more " realistic" writers after the 2000's wrote characters with more nuance. People get depressed in real life and do things that are foolish. Gwen made a mistake.
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Post by Hoosier X on Jan 9, 2024 18:07:36 GMT -5
Very few people criticizing Sins Past has argued that its unthinkable because of the age difference. Certainly nobody in the current discussion. In an effort to make comics more " realistic" writers after the 2000's wrote characters with more nuance. People get depressed in real life and do things that are foolish. Gwen made a mistake. She was supposed to be in love with Peter, and she just couldn’t resist the mysterious magnetism and strength of a control freak and tyrant like Norman Osborne, who she knew was an awful father and an abuser to her friend Harry. That’s not a mistake. That’s character assassination.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 9, 2024 18:08:48 GMT -5
In an effort to make comics more " realistic" writers after the 2000's wrote characters with more nuance. People get depressed in real life and do things that are foolish. Gwen made a mistake. She was supposed to be in love with Peter, and she just couldn’t resist the mysterious magnetism and strength of a control freak and tyrant like Norman Osborne, who she knew was an awful father and an abuser to her friend Harry. That’s not a mistake. That’s character assassination. Maybe, but it happens every day.
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Post by Hoosier X on Jan 9, 2024 18:14:54 GMT -5
She was supposed to be in love with Peter, and she just couldn’t resist the mysterious magnetism and strength of a control freak and tyrant like Norman Osborne, who she knew was an awful father and an abuser to her friend Harry. That’s not a mistake. That’s character assassination. Maybe, but it happens every day. Bad writing happens every day, that’s for sure. I just find it very hard to believe that Gwen wouldn’t have the strength to resist Norman’s Osborne’s dubious charm. It’s OK to disagree. But you’re not going to convince me by calling it just a “mistake” and saying that young women often find it hard to resist the charm of older men who abuse their children.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 9, 2024 21:13:48 GMT -5
I'm not sure anyone has thought that since 1956, excepting some fundamentalist religious types. I agree with Confessor wholeheartedly about silly youtube 'reviews' also. Most of them are people that just want to be internet famous and have no knowledge or love for their material. That does not describe Linkara at all. He has made 700 episodes of Atop the Fourth Wall over 15 years. It’s obvious that a lot of work goes into every episode, and it’s also obvious that he has a deep knowledge of what he’s talking about. No offense intended... you're allowed to like what you like... just not my thing. It took exactly 43 seconds for me to shut off the video you posted because annoyed me that much. I fully admit I am not the target audience in any way.
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Post by spoon on Jan 9, 2024 21:35:16 GMT -5
I read the Superman: The Man of Steel TPB vol. 8 reprinting Action Comics #598-600, Superman #16-18, and Adventures of Superman #439-440. I think the only ones I had previously read are Superman #16-17 and Action Comics #600.
Action #598 introduces Checkmate. It's scripted and co-plotted by Paul Kupperberg, who will write the Checkmate series. Ty Templeton handles inks. The art feels very distinct from some of Byrne regular inkers and it looks really great. The story involves a visit to the U.S. by Qurac's defense minister who supports terrorism and an anti-government faction who are also terrorists. It convoluted in a way that doesn't make to me. Checkmate conducts an assassination on the last page that they could've just done without jumping through hoops. Supposedly, it's because they needed to destroy his operation, but they destroyed forces hostile to him. I don't get it. Also, before the assassination, one of the Checkmate leaders deploys a slur. Then, there's the promotion of the ongoing series on the bottom of the page! Maybe it's supposed to be "sophisticated" and we're supposed to view the organization as morally ambiguous, but it seems like promoting a book by having one of your protagonists call Black Manta the n-word before killing him.
Superman #16 introduces the post-Crisis Prankster. It well-executed from the perspective of art and let's say "direction." I'm ambivalent on the denouement, because it feels a little bit like the story didn't matter. But I guess it's about the journey. We also get what I think are the first post-Crisis appearances of Morgan Edge (backed by Darkseid in the shadows) and the new Supergirl.
Adventures of Superman #439 might be my favorite in the book. A guy who claims to be Superman shows up in bad shape, but Clark is still around and cooperating with him to rescue Jimmy and Cat from what seems to be a well-armed rural militia group. I like the weirdness contrasted with Ordway's restrained, realistic pencils. It's bizarre and very entertaining. I'm guessing the point was to do a take on what I believe was a pre-Crisis concept.
Action #599 is the follow-up to the previous Metal Men appearance. Byrne inks Metal Men co-creator Ross Andru. It's not a felicitous combo; it looks scratchy. Also, I feel like we don't get an explanation for the odd ending of the previous Metal Men story. On top of that Byrne feels the need to come up with an explanation for comic book science that I guess didn't make sense to him.
Superman #17 brings one of the first returns of a new post-Crisis villain, the Silver Banshee. The art is great, and I like the story despite the obstacle of trying to build a plot that can survives the sudden deadliness of the Silver Banshee's power. Also, Jimmy Olsen mom has gotten the Mary Jane Watson treatment for a few issues, but now we finally see her face. So does Superman, and if Byrne had given him a thought balloon, it would've been, "What a MILF!" Also, Lois is talking to her sister, where she is apparently dressing to go undercover as a hooker for a story. But most the upper part of her seemingly shocking outfit is off-panel.
Adventures #440 is just about juggling various sub=plots, starting with the return of the apparently reformed Professor Hamilton. Superman and Batman reveal they know each other's secret identities. We also get a partial solution to the scrapbook mystery, which makes me wonder if there's another shoe to drop or if Byrne didn't have a plan when he introduced the subplot. Our cliffhanger is Supes smooching with Wonder Woman, who he has been lusting over, just outside of Smallville.
This brings us to Action Comics #600. This is an anniversary issue done right. The backup stories focus on various cast members and it all ties together. A couple years ago I read the lead story as part of a Wonder Woman binge, but somehow it's more satisfying reading it as part of the Superman run. It's very cool to see George Perez inking John Byrne. It does seem like Perez put more of his stamp on Diana's face while leaving more of Byrne's style on Superman's face. The Lois Lane backup story reveals that her outfit from Superman #17 is really the world's most conservative prostitute. The payoff though is that we get a bit of the Clark/Lois/Superman triangle as she tries to recover from the fallout of the story Ma and Pa told her back in #597. Next, we get a Lex Luthor/Maggie Sawyer story that is very much of its time as her continuing arc about her sexual orientation. Also, Lex's hand is not doing well!! The Jimmy Olsen story feels old school due to the Curt Swan art. He has brought Superman from the Lois Lane story to fight an environmental disaster. That leads to last story of Superman suffering from kryptonite poisoning and delusions in cave and meeting up with the Man-Bat, illustrated by Mike Mignola. I don't think I understand the story when I read it as a 9-year-old, but it's pretty good.
The follow-up in Superman #18 having been rescued by Hawkman and Hawkwoman, journeying to the site of Krypton's explosion to try to deal with the crisis caused by the debris casting its radiation on Earth. Mignola also draws this one, and it's a very different story. It's dissatisfying to me. Supes has a hallucination. While it's weird, I don't think the payoff is worth an issue. Also, I don't get what the resolution was to the mission to space.
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Post by Hoosier X on Jan 9, 2024 21:38:04 GMT -5
That does not describe Linkara at all. He has made 700 episodes of Atop the Fourth Wall over 15 years. It’s obvious that a lot of work goes into every episode, and it’s also obvious that he has a deep knowledge of what he’s talking about. No offense intended... you're allowed to like what you like... just not my thing. It took exactly 43 seconds for me to shut off the video you posted because annoyed me that much. I fully admit I am not the target audience in any way. I was just setting the record straight on your general sweeping comment that most people on the Internet just want to be Internet famous and don’t know what they are talking about. It’s demonstrably wrong when talking about Linkara. I wasn’t saying you had to like him. It doesn’t have anything to do with whether I like him or not. I was just tying to inject a little fairness into the conversation.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jan 10, 2024 8:45:17 GMT -5
Is there an example of an older woman seducing a younger man (super-hero or not) in comics despite her negative and manipulative traits being common knowledge?
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Post by Confessor on Jan 10, 2024 10:54:39 GMT -5
Is there an example of an older woman seducing a younger man (super-hero or not) in comics despite her negative and manipulative traits being common knowledge? Betty Brant seducing Peter Parker? He was a 15-year-old High School kid when they started dating and she was definitely older...early 20s, I guess. Clearly there was no sex involved, but they were in a romantic relationship.
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Post by Confessor on Jan 10, 2024 11:07:52 GMT -5
Doc Ock and Aunt May?
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Post by spoon on Jan 10, 2024 11:09:08 GMT -5
Is there an example of an older woman seducing a younger man (super-hero or not) in comics despite her negative and manipulative traits being common knowledge? In my current Superman reading, there's something a bit like that. Unlike Wolfman, Byrne portrayed Cat Grant as on the prowl. Even though Byrne portrayed Jimmy Olsen as having a crush on Cat first, he then has a scene in Superman #19 where Cat is coming on to Jimmy while Jimmy is a somewhat reluctant. Cat is described as 10 years older than Jimmy.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Jan 10, 2024 11:22:33 GMT -5
Is there an example of an older woman seducing a younger man (super-hero or not) in comics despite her negative and manipulative traits being common knowledge? Betty Brant seducing Peter Parker? He was a 15-year-old High School kid when they started dating and she was definitely older...early 20s, I guess. Clearly there was no sex involved, but they were in a romantic relationship. Unless there's some interview with either Ditko or Lee in which they explicitly stated that Betty was supposed to be in her early 20s, I think it's safe to assume that she was also a teenager. It was not at all uncommon at the time (and later) that girls as young as 16 or 17 often dropped out of high school to get jobs, which included office jobs like receptionists, typists or secretaries.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jan 10, 2024 11:36:25 GMT -5
Actually, I am interested in your thoughts and was glad you took the time to read the arc. But obviously we don't agree on its merits and neither of us is likely to change our minds on that score, I would think. So probably best to move on. Yeah. You sound like you’re really interested in my thoughts. 😆 You have to learn to read "tone".
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Post by Ozymandias on Jan 10, 2024 11:45:00 GMT -5
In an effort to make comics more " realistic" writers after the 2000's wrote characters with more nuance. People get depressed in real life and do things that are foolish. Gwen made a mistake. She was supposed to be in love with Peter, and she just couldn’t resist the mysterious magnetism and strength of a control freak and tyrant like Norman Osborne, who she knew was an awful father and an abuser to her friend Harry. That’s not a mistake. That’s character assassination. Having read the comics involved, it's safe to say that your supposition is a valid one. Which didn't prevent her from kicking his ass out of home when he (apparently) mistreated her father. But sure, she was of such weak moral fiber that someone inflicting pain on a friend didn't rub on her one way or another. If he was a hot daddy it made perfect sense for her to fall for it.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jan 10, 2024 12:21:37 GMT -5
Betty Brant seducing Peter Parker? He was a 15-year-old High School kid when they started dating and she was definitely older...early 20s, I guess. Clearly there was no sex involved, but they were in a romantic relationship. Unless there's some interview with either Ditko or Lee in which they explicitly stated that Betty was supposed to be in her early 20s, I think it's safe to assume that she was also a teenager. It was not at all uncommon at the time (and later) that girls as young as 16 or 17 often dropped out of high school to get jobs, which included office jobs like receptionists, typists or secretaries. Actually, you might well be right. Didn't she say in some issue or other that she only took the job at The Daily Bugle to help pay her brother's debts? That might have been the motivator for her dropping out of High School. Myself, I've always assumed she was about 20 or 21, but it's definitely possible that she could've been 17 or 18. We know that Peter was definitely 15 when he got bitten by the radioactive spider though because that has been mentioned in later Spider-Man comics, so she was still older than him. No idea if Stan or Ditko have ever gone on record about the age gap. I doubt it.
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