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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Mar 8, 2016 19:41:42 GMT -5
I think the symbiote gave us one of the coolest Spidey suits ever. And early Venom appearances are fine by me, I think they are generally well written and the artwork is good (ASM #316 is a great cover in my opinion).
My problem with Carnage was that he was supposed to be this sick psychotic killer but every story in the Maximum Carnage arc just comes across as very juvenile. I mean, I look at other stuff from DC in the late 80's, early 90's and they had a way with the tone to make things seem darker and spookier. I never felt you could actually fear Carnage. Despite a great look, I don't think Marvel committed to making him evil and showing blood. They also threw in crummy sidekicks to make a murderous dream team that seemed more like a bad Halloween party. None of their rampage takes place at night, they waltz around in broad daylight. I blame the writing and overall scenery for the story. Maybe you involve a few of those others, like just Shriek, and have Carnage be cunning, sneaky and elusive. I just don't think they managed to capture him being crazy.
You want good crazy, look at any number of DC stories. If they had done something more, I think Carnage could have been more. But alas, to me he is nothing more than a visual joy (I especially like when he takes over the Silver Surfer...again, the look of that is great but the tale behind it is meh).
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Mar 8, 2016 20:37:50 GMT -5
I'm the guy who watches a horror film and finds the monster far more compelling before it steps out of the shadows. When you can't yet see the full shape of the figure, it can still take on a horrifying mysteriousness -- it can be exactly as bad as your wildest imagination, or possibly even worse. Once it steps out of the shadows, it has limitations and constraints. Even just its appearance will have aspects that do disturb you and aspects that don't. You can be disappointed.
I feel the same way about the symbiots. When Peter Parker had an ultra cool new costume that was increasingly giving off signals that there was something wrong with it, I was HOOKED. But, as soon as it took on a definite shape, all the mystery was gone, and I found myself quite disappointed.
Thus, I've never been a fan of the symbiots.
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Post by Action Ace on Mar 8, 2016 21:39:02 GMT -5
I just read through the Birth of Venom trade paperback and I liked the alien costume idea, not so much Venom. I returned to comics in the early 1990s and my return issue to Spider-Man was Amazing Spider-Man #360 with Carnage. He was a waste of ink.
It was the first issue of Amazing Spider-Man I ever bought new off the stands as it was always sold out when I was a kid. (and it was a second print)
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Mar 9, 2016 7:45:34 GMT -5
I liked Vemon fine when he first appeared and the whole black costume saga leading up to that was also really cool. Once we got to the '90s and he was everywhere he got annoying. Likewise, Carnage was kinda fun, in a psychotic, Joker-esque way, for a while, but it soon got dull. "Over-exposed" is the phrase that comes to mind regrading these two characters.
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Mar 9, 2016 8:58:19 GMT -5
I agree with that statement...overexposed. The Joker (I feel) has never been overused by DC. He appears a lot but not to the point where they try to force him at you. Carnage and Venom are likely victim of the time period, full of tons of comics, variant covers, multiple printings and they were everywhere. TV, video games, solo series, etc.
Off on a bit of a tangent, I have always wanted to see Wrightson draw Venom or Carnage. I think he could put a real horror touch to each character.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Mar 9, 2016 13:36:26 GMT -5
Never ever read a single decent "proper" Venom story. However, those two mini series were pretty fun and had an actual story :   Peter Milligan is usually terrible with Marvel superheroes, but that is one rare case of where he was a good fit and had original ideas. |
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Post by Pharozonk on Mar 11, 2016 0:06:26 GMT -5
I liked Venom and Carnage in the early stories they were featured in. My interest in them waned after Maximum Carnage though, which I will defend as being an enjoyable if very dumb story. Anything involving their spawn like Toxin and crap like Anti-Venom on the other hand can jump off a cliff.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Mar 11, 2016 17:19:23 GMT -5
I liked Venom and Carnage in the early stories they were featured in. My interest in them waned after Maximum Carnage though, which I will defend as being an enjoyable if very dumb story. Anything involving their spawn like Toxin and crap like Anti-Venom on the other hand can jump off a cliff. Both of those kinda worked for me. The Venom stuff had always been about redemption vs. obsession, and Anti-Venom played into that pretty well, thematically. Toxin worked better as a Spider-Man character than, say, Carnage - although note that Carnage is basically the worst possible Spider-Man character - because a symbiote that wasn't a goofy cartoon character was a fairly novel idea. Although I guess I might not be judging them on their own merits but that they were better than Carnage. And since every single other character that has ever been created in any fictional medium throughout the history of time is better than Carnage.... |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Mar 11, 2016 17:37:13 GMT -5
I liked Venom and Carnage in the early stories they were featured in. My interest in them waned after Maximum Carnage though, which I will defend as being an enjoyable if very dumb story. Anything involving their spawn like Toxin and crap like Anti-Venom on the other hand can jump off a cliff. Both of those kinda worked for me. The Venom stuff had always been about redemption vs. obsession, and Anti-Venom played into that pretty well, thematically. Toxin worked better as a Spider-Man character than, say, Carnage - although note that Carnage is basically the worst possible Spider-Man character - because a symbiote that wasn't a goofy cartoon character was a fairly novel idea. Although I guess I might not be judging them on their own merits but that they were better than Carnage. And since every single other character that has ever been created in any fictional medium throughout the history of time is better than Carnage.... Well, I tell you, that Milligan mini wasn't bad, so it's as usual mostly a matter of the quality of the writing and ideas. But if I remember correctly, the Toxin one was even better, with a fairly dramatic and creepy story But now I'm completely ou of touch wiht my 00ies reading : I did read some venom, namely his ongoing series with Sam Kieth covers! That was was actually alright. Some decent Paco Medina artwork, and a story that aped a lot at John Carpenter's The Thing, which is quite appropriate if you think about it... |
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Post by Cei-U! on Mar 11, 2016 20:35:08 GMT -5
How does everyone here feel about our two main Marvel symbiotes, Venom and Carnage? It always seems like older collectors tend to hate them, while others from the 90's love them. Personally, I think both characters are great visually.
Also, which story arcs/single issues are your favourite for each? I like the #298-301 initial Venom story when he is first introduced but have yet to find much more than that that was really groundbreaking. Of course, everyone likes to have their opinion on the whole Maximum Carnage which I don't find as terrible as some people say. It perhaps is a bit long and all over the place at times but it is readable and entertaining. Demogoblin and Shriek though are two very terrible characters that I think take away from its potential. If it just involved Carnage running around with Venom and Spidey teaming up to try and stop him, it would have likely been a lot shorter and perhaps better written. I'm one of them there "older collectors" and, yeah, I'm not terribly fond of either character. Still, I can't say I "hate" them since, other than the two-year stretch between Secret Wars and my abandoning Marvel altogether, I haven't read any of the comics featuring them. I thought Venom was okay in the third Raimi Spider-Man movie, though, and I enjoy playing as Venom in the Marvel Heroes MMPORPG (for whatever *that's* worth). Cei-U! I summon the mixed feelings! |
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Mar 11, 2016 20:42:44 GMT -5
What did we all think of amputee Flash Thompson donning the symbiote (and it's legs) to become Vemon?
Myself, Flash losing his legs in...I think it was Afghanistan (could've been Iraq)...was a real "roll eyes" moment, but I thought the idea of him joining with the symbiote to become Vemon -- only Venom working for the U.S. military -- was, in essence, a fairly interesting idea. By that I mean, having an amputee character that then becomes a mighty hero working for the military when he dons the symbiote, was an interesting idea.
However, any interest in this version of Venom was immediately negated for me by the fact that it was Flash Thompson who was Venom. Flash should never, ever have been made into a superhero. That just felt totally unnecessary. An interesting idea shoehorned onto a character that shouldn't have ever been used in that way.
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Roquefort Raider
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Mar 11, 2016 20:58:40 GMT -5
What did we all think of amputee Flash Thompson donning the symbiote (and it's legs) to become Vemon? Myself, Flash losing his legs in...I think it was Afghanistan (could've been Iraq)...was a real "roll eyes" moment (...) Absolutely! Agreed, and had it been anybody but an already-known member of the supporting cast, I would have really applauded the idea. I do not know why modern creators feel the need to do that... why they suffer from a fanboyish need to connect everything and everyone. The Dune prequels by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson suffered from the same flaw. Flash Thompson was not created to be a superhero, and although he worshipped Spider-man he was just a regular man himself; a really interesting aspect of his character development was how he tried to become a hero by joining the army but only found disillusion. Maiming him later was just cruel, and then giving him super-powers was just silly. |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Mar 11, 2016 21:38:11 GMT -5
Myself, Flash losing his legs in...I think it was Afghanistan (could've been Iraq)...was a real "roll eyes" moment, Did not know that is what became of Flash. Have not read Spider-Man in decades. Did Flash Thompson's legs ever return from the dead like all things in the Marvel U eventually does? |
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Post by Pharozonk on Mar 11, 2016 23:20:07 GMT -5
Myself, Flash losing his legs in...I think it was Afghanistan (could've been Iraq)...was a real "roll eyes" moment, Did not know that is what became of Flash. Have not read Spider-Man in decades. Did Flash Thompson's legs ever return from the dead like all things in the Marvel U eventually does? A deal with Mephisto was probably involved too. |
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Post by crazyoldhermit on Mar 12, 2016 5:29:01 GMT -5
Myself, Flash losing his legs in...I think it was Afghanistan (could've been Iraq)...was a real "roll eyes" moment, Did not know that is what became of Flash. Have not read Spider-Man in decades. Did Flash Thompson's legs ever return from the dead like all things in the Marvel U eventually does? Last I checked he is still without legs and still Venom. |
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