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Post by Dizzy D on Jul 21, 2014 4:40:38 GMT -5
Depends on the character, in case of a Jamie Madrox for instance, the way his powers influence everything in his life and personality make them important to the stories you can tell with him.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 13:59:12 GMT -5
Does the next new member of the Justice League need to have superpowers? If not superpowers, then definitely something else that compensates for it. Otherwise Commissioner Gordon could join. Give him some flashy purple spandex and a giant gold utility belt! |
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Post by tolworthy on Jul 21, 2014 14:55:46 GMT -5
For the classic era Fantastic Four at least, powers were purely a mcGuffin. They allowed for a wider range of stories and made everything bigger. Everything the FF did could have been done without superpowers, but on a smaller scale.
I think the real problem is power inflation. If Ben Grimm can lift five tons (like at the start) and he's one of only three people who can, that makes him super-interesting. I can just about buy that possibility, and it allows for some fascinating stories. But when everybody and his dog can lift a hundred or a thousand tons? It's like a child's story where everybody throws nuclear bombs around: even if a writer could make it believable I can no longer relate.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jul 21, 2014 15:52:10 GMT -5
For the classic era Fantastic Four at least, powers were purely a mcGuffin. They allowed for a wider range of stories and made everything bigger. Everything the FF did could have been done without superpowers, but on a smaller scale. That's a point. I can't think of anything in, say, the first 100 issues of Fantastic Four that wouldn't work for the Challengers of the Unknown without some minor changes. Ditto Spider-man, although they'd need some origin tweaks in AF # 15. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 20:09:54 GMT -5
I think power level matters more than the specific power set. The FF aren't that much more powerful than the Challs, really. Give Peter Parker Johnny Storm's powers, and you could still tell basically the same stories. He'd fly rather than swing, he'd use flame instead of webbing, but he'd still face the same type of challenges, internal and external. Give him Superman's powers, and everything changes.
And some characters are defined by their type of powers. Switch Dr. Strange's powers w/almost anybody else's, and you're telling different stories.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 21, 2014 21:00:52 GMT -5
I think power level matters more than the specific power set. The FF aren't that much more powerful than the Challs, really. I wasn't aware that the Challengers could burst into flames, turn invisible, Stretch or lift 100,000 pounds. I thought they were just 4 regular guys. The FF powers were a great catalyst for stories. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 21:26:27 GMT -5
I think power level matters more than the specific power set. The FF aren't that much more powerful than the Challs, really. I wasn't aware that the Challengers could burst into flames, turn invisible, Stretch or lift 100,000 pounds. I thought they were just 4 regular guys. The FF powers were a great catalyst for stories. Ben's condition was the starting point for some stories, like 'This Man, This Monster' or the first Diablo. But when were stretching, flame or invisibility ever the catalyst for a story? I think of the FF as more adventurers, explorers, than super-heroes, and their stories flowed out of that. The Challs could've explored the Negative Zone, found the Inhumans, even faced Galactus with minor tweaks. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 22, 2014 2:04:46 GMT -5
My impetus for starting this discussion was Claremont's X-Men. There's a team that would have faced the exact same tensions and drama, and held the same appeal to fans, regardless of what their individual powers were. To answer my own question at the beginning, though, no, I don't think Superman would be the same with different powers. His very moral authority comes from the point that he has god-like powers and could choose to flatten all that oppose him, and yet he'd rather teach us all to play nice. I like Richard Bishop's point that Tony Stark has to be Iron Man because it is a compensation for his ailing heart. Similarly, Steve Rogers needs the super-soldier serum because he has the soul and spirit of a sensitive weakling yearning to be a hero, ironically placed in a super humanly enhanced body. Maybe Peter Parker's introspection and self-doubt is exacerbated by his spider-sense, or even by the fact that his abilities are so closely associated with a generally detestable creature. I wonder, though, if some of DC's legacy characters have any discernible qualities outside of their powers. Who exactly IS Aquaman beyond the whole ocean thing? Would we recognize Hal Jordan without the power ring? In recent years, Barry Allen has gained more of a personality, but it seems like all that distinguished him prior to the Crisis was his super speed. And Wonder Woman has changed personalities so many time, under so many writers, that it seems the only constants we have are the skimpy outfit and lasso of truth. Yes, these statements are designed to provoke a reaction. Come at me with them  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 2:19:03 GMT -5
I think it all depends on the approach to story telling the writer/editorial team is taking. If they are telling plot based stories, then the importance of super-powers becomes magnified. You can't tell a lot of Superman plot-driven stories without the super-powers to drive that plot. I think this characterizes a lot of Silver Age DC style stories, which is why Shax's points have some validity.
If you are telling a character driven story, then the importance of super-powers is minimized as the focus is on the character traits, personality, etc. A story where Clark Kent/Superman's morality and compassion are tested can be done whether he is leaping buildings in a single bound or involved in an investigative journalism story as Clark Kent and never hits the phone booth to pull open the shirt and reveal the S shield.
A great many mainstream comic stories are plot based. The early Marvel revolution by Lee/Kirby/Ditko et. al. was to tell more character driven stories. Not every early Marvel story was character driven for sure, but a great many were, so those character features and foibles were just as important if not more important than the super-powers in those cases.
The expectation in modern comics is for more character driven stuff, but a lot of event comics, things like Hickman's Avengers, and other modern mainstream comics are still plot driven for the most part, and so in those the super-powers matter a lot more than in say a Bendis Daredevil story where he is putting Matt Murdock through the wringer.
-M
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 22, 2014 2:23:24 GMT -5
I think it all depends on the approach to story telling the writer/editorial team is taking. If they are telling plot based stories, then the importance of super-powers becomes magnified. You can't tell a lot of Superman plot-driven stories without the super-powers to drive that plot. I think this characterizes a lot of Silver Age DC style stories, which is why Shax's points have some validity. If you are telling a character driven story, then the importance of super-powers is minimized as the focus is on the character traits, personality, etc. A story where Clark Kent/Superman's morality and compassion are tested can be done whether he is leaping buildings in a single bound or involved in an investigative journalism story as Clark Kent and never hits the phone booth to pull open the shirt and reveal the S shield. A great many mainstream comic stories are plot based. The early Marvel revolution by Lee/Kirby/Ditko et. al. was to tell more character driven stories. Not every early Marvel story was character driven for sure, but a great many were, so those character features and foibles were just as important if not more important than the super-powers in those cases. The expectation in modern comics is for more character driven stuff, but a lot of event comics, things like Hickman's Avengers, and other modern mainstream comics are still plot driven for the most part, and so in those the super-powers matter a lot more than in say a Bendis Daredevil story where he is putting Matt Murdock through the wringer. -M Excellent points all around. I suppose this question only makes sense in a post-Watchmen comic book industry, where so many stories do focus more on characterization and introspection than the actual saving of the world. Generally speaking, I could care less about powers, as I read comics primarily for characterization. Were superheroes out of vogue, and the genre of preference was adventurers or espionage, I wouldn't have a problem. But occasionally you find a book where the writer really uses those powers well -- not just as a tool to employ in advancing the plot -- and that can be incredibly impressive. When a writer can tie those powers into the characterization, that's just something extra special. |
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Post by comicscube on Jul 22, 2014 2:50:12 GMT -5
On a narrative level, powers are superficial.
But I can't imagine being interested long term in a Peter Parker who couldn't do the stuff he does. That's part of the fun.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 22, 2014 2:54:11 GMT -5
On a narrative level, powers are superficial. But I can't imagine being interested long term in a Peter Parker who couldn't do the stuff he does. That's part of the fun. It could work. Adventure series like Tintin and Terry and Pirates, in which heroic protagonists without powers face bad guys and mortal peril, are proof of that, but the point isn't so much whether superheroes need powers (it would be a different genre if they didn't); its whether the specifics of their powers matter. If, for example, every mutant in the Marvel Universe had the exact same mutation, would it make much of a difference? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 2:55:32 GMT -5
On a narrative level, powers are superficial. But I can't imagine being interested long term in a Peter Parker who couldn't do the stuff he does. That's part of the fun. It could work. Adventure series like Tintin and Terry and Pirates, in which heroic protagonists face bad guys and mortal peril, are proof of that, but the point isn't so much whether superheroes need powers (it would be a different genre if they didn't); its whether the specifics of their powers matter. If, for example, every mutant in the Marvel Universe had the exact same mutation, would it make much of a difference? Wha-?, they don't all have the power to be super-whiny and angsty? Oh sorry, I must have misread the power brief....  -M |
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Post by Dizzy D on Jul 22, 2014 4:38:10 GMT -5
On a narrative level, powers are superficial. But I can't imagine being interested long term in a Peter Parker who couldn't do the stuff he does. That's part of the fun. It could work. Adventure series like Tintin and Terry and Pirates, in which heroic protagonists without powers face bad guys and mortal peril, are proof of that, but the point isn't so much whether superheroes need powers (it would be a different genre if they didn't); its whether the specifics of their powers matter. If, for example, every mutant in the Marvel Universe had the exact same mutation, would it make much of a difference? In some cases it'd matter, in some cases not. Wolverine, Rogue and Cyclops would be different people with different powers (unless the powers would be similar in other ways to their current powerset). Psylocke has switched powers so often that her exact powers don't seem to matter that much. It also depends on the writer and the kind of story he/she wants to tell, for some writers all superpowers are just a way to beat up bad guys, for others superpowers determine the character's personality and way of life. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 22, 2014 4:56:06 GMT -5
The genre of superheroes becomes what it is because of the fantastic power and situations that are created because of them. If you pull the powers away, you end up with soap operas ( Love and Rockets, Strangers in paradise), or crime stories ( Fatale, Nathaniel Dusk). Nothing wrong with those other genres but it's not what will keep me coming back every month. I loved the epic fights that leveled cities between Thor and the Hulk. The Fantastic Four can enter and SURVIVE the negative zone because of their abilities. It's the fantasy of having powers that gives them adventures in other worlds or on the moon.
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