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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jun 8, 2016 10:56:18 GMT -5
So I was thinking... Frankly, I'm rather tired of the trend.
Don't get me wrong, I have zero simpathy for the nazi "philosophy" or actions, quite the opposite (my swedish grandfather actually helped people flee Germany to Sweden during WWII), but unless you use neo nazi characters with actual neo nazi agendas in a fiction narrative, enough already! Straightforward current superhero stories using nazis as villains is pure laziness : "Oh, a character in a nazi uniform, he must be the villain, no needs explaining!"
Well... Actually yes, some explaining's always needed, otherwise, nazis just become simple antagonists, ones you don't even need to explain motivations. The new rise of a legendary third reich as the motive of vilains is the biggest cop-out a writer could find.
Now, as a pastiche of war time comics, tat's perfectly valid and possibly interesting, but other then that, that's just nazisploitation.
Of course I enjoyed the Indiana Jones movies, but the last decent one was almost 30 years ago, time to move on, or be creative about it.
A movie (and a book - the the movie was superior) as The Young Lions had Marlon Brando as a nazi officer, and it was a marvelous drama. If we are to still over and over use the nazi archetype in comics (or movies), I want more mature take on this, because the distance now commands it. Still depecting nazis as the baddies is becoming dangerous if not only boring.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 8, 2016 11:55:40 GMT -5
Perfect cue for an OSS117 excerpt!!!
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jun 8, 2016 12:13:51 GMT -5
They're universally known and hated. No one wants/will defend them. Not that other people in this world's history haven't done bad things. American war comics portrayed the Japanese as fanged savages in the propaganda comics of that time. But the Japanese are a race of people and all not the same. Nazi are a group that people choose to be a part of, whether through Hitler's dynamic persuasion, or they just really believed there is/was a superior race. So it makes it easy to generalize they're evil.
Strangely I was reading two random issues of JL Task Force (#9, 10) while eating, and the layout of that story is an Aryan group in Nebraska coming up with a virus to unleash on the earth that would kill all people at the DNA level that are not of Northern European descent. Printed in 1994. So yes, it is and probably always will be a go to villain, if even not directly the Nazis.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 8, 2016 12:18:26 GMT -5
So I was thinking... Frankly, I'm rather tired of the trend.
Don't get me wrong, I have zero simpathy for the nazi "philosophy" or actions, quite the opposite (my swedish grandfather actually helped people flee Germany to Sweden during WWII), but unless you use neo nazi characters with actual neo nazi agendas in a fiction narrative, enough already! Straightforward current superhero stories using nazis as villains is pure laziness : "Oh, a character in a nazi uniform, he must be the villain, no needs explaining!"
Well... Actually yes, some explaining's always needed, otherwise, nazis just become simple antagonists, ones you don't even need to explain motivations. The new rise of a legendary third reich as the motive of vilains is the biggest cop-out a writer could find.
Now, as a pastiche of war time comics, tat's perfectly valid and possibly interesting, but other then that, that's just nazisploitation.
Of course I enjoyed the Indiana Jones movies, but the last decent one was almost 30 years ago, time to move on, or be creative about it.
A movie (and a book - the the movie was superior) as The Young Lions had Marlon Brando as a nazi officer, and it was a marvelous drama. If we are to still over and over use the nazi archetype in comics (or movies), I want more mature take on this, because the distance now commands it. Still depecting nazis as the baddies is becoming dangerous if not only boring.
The thing about Nazis is that they're disliked by pretty much everyone, and so making them the villains of any adventure is a very safe choice. Even murdering them doesn't seem so bad, because... they're nazis!
That's not the case with other groups who were in the past seen as disposable opponents, back when an Apache, a tropical islander or a Russian commissar were simply assumed to be the bad guy. Luckily we grew out of that phase and became a little more aware of cultural relativity; but in the case of nazis... there was no need! They were gone, and they had been brutal, genocidal maniacs! The closest we've got today as far as disposable bad guys go are "terrorists". Just look at how many films and comics have "terrorists" as the bad guys. What do they want? What ideal to they defend? What are their grievances? Who cares? They're terrorists. Their goal in life is to do bad stuff because they're evil. Very often they'll behave just like standard villains (read "Nazis") and not at all like real-life terrorists; they'll have things like high-tech secret bases, tons of money and resources, thousands and thousands of troops. heck, even Hydra was described as a terrorist outfit! I remember a particularly bad story that was at the forefront of this movement : in the story that brought Shang-Chi out of retirement (in the pages of Marvel comics presents) Chi had to face the threat of a united front of terrorists. Yes, all these guys had united to be bad guys together! I can just imagine how well Al Qaïda guys would mesh with Hezbollah fellows, Tamil tigers, IRA blokes, Shining path revolutionaries, et tutti quanti... Talk about painting everyone with the same brush! As for Nazis in today's comics, I agree with you. They should be left to the WWII comics. Reusing them isn't very original, and neo-nazis, for all the danger they pose to our pluralistic societies, aren't really the kind of foes that superheroes go after. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 8, 2016 12:22:45 GMT -5
Strangely I was reading two random issues of JL Task Force (#9, 10) while eating, and the layout of that story is an Aryan group in Nebraska coming up with a virus to unleash on the earth that would kill all people at the DNA level that are not of Northern European descent. Barak Obama would still survive. Take THAT, Aryan terrorists!!! |
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Post by tingramretro on Jun 8, 2016 12:27:58 GMT -5
Strangely I was reading two random issues of JL Task Force (#9, 10) while eating, and the layout of that story is an Aryan group in Nebraska coming up with a virus to unleash on the earth that would kill all people at the DNA level that are not of Northern European descent. Barak Obama would still survive. Take THAT, Aryan terrorists!!! I remember that storyline. The leader of the Aryan group ended up infected with his own virus as he wasn't quite as Aryan as he thought he was. |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jun 8, 2016 12:35:37 GMT -5
Perfect cue for an OSS117 excerpt!!! Both OSS117 movies probably are the very best comedies of the past 20 years, especially if you know the basics of french culture |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 8, 2016 12:40:21 GMT -5
Both OSS117 movies probably are the very best comedies of the past 20 years, especially if you know the basics of french culture I was personally disappointed by the second, but the first is pretty close a perfect movie as far as I'm concerned! Repeated viewings also keep delivering new laughs. I had completely missed the Parapluies de Cherbourg reference the first few times I saw it. |
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Post by MDG on Jun 8, 2016 12:47:40 GMT -5
No one's going to complain that you're stereotyping a Nazi.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jun 8, 2016 12:48:15 GMT -5
For DC Comics, the Joker is the new Nazi.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jun 8, 2016 12:51:04 GMT -5
Both OSS117 movies probably are the very best comedies of the past 20 years, especially if you know the basics of french culture I was personally disappointed by the second, but the first is pretty close a perfect movie as far as I'm concerned! Repeated viewings also keep delivering new laughs. I had completely missed the Parapluies de Cherbourg reference the first few times I saw it. Ah, the second one is even more acid I think, maybe sometimes more cartoony, but still, just for that scene in the video, I still can't believe how clever and irreverant they managed to be in a way all french people can't identify with, the pride and the misplaced pride  For those who don't get french the scene takes place in 60ies Brazil, OSS (french James Bond) is amazed by the beauty of Rio, despite it being difficult to not get your shoes dirty. Which prompts his female assigned assistent to remind him most people here don't even have shoes since they live under a dictatorship. OSS proceeds to mock her feeble female mind and her political views since Brazil can't be a dictatorship : "a dictatorship is when people are communists, have cold weather, have grey hats and zipper shoes!" The assistent burst asking him what he'd then call a country with all powerfull soldier as its president, a secret police, one sole TV channel and where all information is under state control? (describing Brazil) To which Oss proudly (and cluelessly) answers he calls it France, the General De Gaulle's France! ... Both OSS movies are the children of the director who did The Artist. |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jun 8, 2016 12:51:08 GMT -5
Barak Obama would still survive. Take THAT, Aryan terrorists!!! I remember that storyline. The leader of the Aryan group ended up infected with his own virus as he wasn't quite as Aryan as he thought he was.  |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jun 8, 2016 12:57:07 GMT -5
No one's going to complain that you're stereotyping a Nazi. Well, I did, and I know of many people who do as well : it's just lazy writing at best, and at worst dangerous since younger generation may completly miss the historical and political points and start thinking they have cool uniforms... When teens have Pacino "Scarface" T-shirts and posters, how far away is that from having Svastikas because they think it's cool and never bothered going further than Indiana Jones movies? It might seem far-fetched, but truely, whenever I see nazis as villains in comic books that aren't about WWII, it's seldom I do'nt find those bad and lazy if not downright offensive. |
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Post by Bronze age andy on Jun 8, 2016 13:11:56 GMT -5
What is the ratio of Nazi super villains to German superheroes?
500 to 1? 1,000 to 1?
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Post by dupersuper on Jun 8, 2016 20:54:18 GMT -5
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