shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,812
|
Post by shaxper on Aug 15, 2018 19:28:01 GMT -5
About Wonder Girl -- Short Hair I've might be in the minority here and please understand why I feel that Haney did a bad decision of the short hair of Wonder Girl and I just felt it was totally out of place and I do understand why he did this; to bring more sophistication to the part of Wonder Girl. Just to be clear, 1. This was a hypnotic dream. It didn't actually happen. 2. Wonder Girl never cut her hair short, even in the dream. It's tied back. 3. Her comments in the image above are about cutting her hair off altogether in order to pose as a bald man.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 19:39:22 GMT -5
About Wonder Girl -- Short Hair I've might be in the minority here and please understand why I feel that Haney did a bad decision of the short hair of Wonder Girl and I just felt it was totally out of place and I do understand why he did this; to bring more sophistication to the part of Wonder Girl. Just to be clear, 1. This was a hypnotic dream. It didn't actually happen. 2. Wonder Girl never cut her hair short, even in the dream. It's tied back. 3. Her comments in the image above are about cutting her hair off altogether in order to pose as a bald man. Sorry, I didn't catch that and I was young back then and haven't read that story in a long time. I understand #1 and #2 -- but not #3. I have no recollection of her posing as a bald man and this is new to me. Thanks for clearing that up.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 8:10:55 GMT -5
Great reviews! TT #37: Although I enjoy that issue, I agree....very sloppy in places. No emotional tie to Grady, so no real impact from his death. I would liked to have seen an issue dedicated to the tales mentioned...Firefly and when Lilith was accused of hit and run. It would have made more sense for another team member to wreck the van as Lilith's ESP would have told of her of any upcoming calamity. Kid Flash and Wonder Girl could have also gotten the team quickly back to the labs, rather than the team hopping a ride with a farmer. I liked the idea of the story, but poor execution.
TT #38: Great cover but the story is a bit of a let down, although I did enjoy reading about the Titans greatest fears. Loved the scene of Lilith and Mr J fighting over the Doors record (fake fight, ha!). Loved seeing some of Mal's background and his fear of open spaces was very understandable after seeing what happened to him as a child. Maybe at the time and with her age, WG was more about her appearance and femininity than her past? I imagine she is around 17 or so in this story and maybe she felt she had her family with the team and was content? Who knows, but I would imagine a teen age girl having to lose her long locks would be quite a trauma. I can see Robin's fear too. Growing up with the very successful Batman, failure would be a very valid fear. Mr Jupiter....he is kind of a shady guy. I would have loved to see a story where Batman, Aquaman, Flash, Diana Prince, and Green Arrow show up to investigate just what he's up to. I liked the idea of the mentoring program, but his role now seems unnecessary. The Lilith back ups are good and I do love the one where she becomes a part of the carnival.
So awesome you did a review of that Robin and Lilith story! That 2 part story is a hidden gem and a favorite of mine. Robin, Lilith, a cameo by Kid Flash, campus craziness, groovy fashions, and occult, great art....fun stuff!
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,812
|
Post by shaxper on Aug 16, 2018 10:27:57 GMT -5
So awesome you did a review of that Robin and Lilith story! That 2 part story is a hidden gem and a favorite of mine. Robin, Lilith, a cameo by Kid Flash, campus craziness, groovy fashions, and occult, great art....fun stuff! I might have missed it if it hadn't been for you, so thank you!
|
|
|
Post by MDG on Aug 16, 2018 11:09:33 GMT -5
Brave and the Bold #83 (May 1969) "Punish Not My Evil Son" grade: A+ .... Lance has a last minute change of heart and sacrifices himself to save Batman from the trap he laid for him. Holy sh**. ... I just got Titans Showcase vol 2 out of the library to catch up on some of these stories, but this was the only one I felt compelled to write about. Obviously, you liked it a lot more than I did. It's not so much the story--which was OK (though you know there's a character that ain't gonna make it to the next issue) but the implications. Basically, an orphan kid is essentially given over to a rich white guy without much legal oversight and within a couple weeks is dead under suspicious circumstances--and nobody seems to rise an eyebrow. And by "suspicious circumstances," the kid's body was obviously banged up pretty bad, and I'm sure he didn't arrive at the morgue wearing the "spare Robin costume," which implies some postmortem tampering with the body. So what story did Bruce cook up to explain what happened? And what proof did he produce? And how many favors did he have to call in to make this all go away?
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,812
|
Post by shaxper on Aug 16, 2018 16:02:32 GMT -5
I just got Titans Showcase vol 2 out of the library to catch up on some of these stories, but this was the only one I felt compelled to write about. I didn't realize they'd included this story in the Showcase volumes. Impressive! Sure, but it absolutely doesn't work out the way you think it will. Or at least it didn't for me! I mean, you're not wrong, but is that really preventing you from enjoying the story? I guess I don't expect that level of consideration from a Silver Age book (especially not a Haney one), and you're essentially correct in your implication...a rich guy like Bruce Wayne easily could pay to make that all go away. So does it really need to be said/shown in order for the story to work? Fascinating stuff to consider, but not something I required from the story in order to enjoy it.
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,812
|
Post by shaxper on Aug 16, 2018 16:55:59 GMT -5
I can't speak with any authority; but, my recollection of the bulk of Speedy's 70s appearances made few mentions of it. I do recall a Green Lantern Green Arrow story (from the Mike Grell run) having a plot element that involved knowledge that Ollie gained from Roy's addiction period. Marv Wolfman was the first I can recall addressing Roy's past and how it shaped his present; but, I would need to read through more late run 70s Teen Titans than I have in recent years, to be sure. I accept the idea that other writers continued to use the character as if nothing had changed. It's just fascinating how well Speedy's lack of presence in any Haney-scripted Titans story correlates with publication of the drug storyline. Might be sheer coincidence, and I have argued that Haney didn't seem to like the character long prior to that, but it's also possible Haney or Boltinoff was uncomfortable with making prominent use of a character now known to be an ex-user.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2018 7:50:48 GMT -5
It seems like I remember a story from World's Finest 251 (?) where Speedy appeared in the Green Arrow/Black Canary story and it mentioned or dealt with his addiction and relationship with Ollie? I have been looking for a back issue and on Ebay this issue usually goes for more than I want to spend. I had a copy when I was little and read it until it fell apart, ha!
|
|
|
Post by MDG on Aug 17, 2018 8:10:19 GMT -5
I mean, you're not wrong, but is that really preventing you from enjoying the story? I guess I don't expect that level of consideration from a Silver Age book (especially not a Haney one), and you're essentially correct in your implication...a rich guy like Bruce Wayne easily could pay to make that all go away. So does it really need to be said/shown in order for the story to work? Fascinating stuff to consider, but not something I required from the story in order to enjoy it. It didn't stop me from enjoying the story on one level, but once you think about it, it's hard to gloss over. On a storytelling level, I might not've thought about it at all if there was a fade out at the end of the "action." The denouement showing a memorial statue of the kid at Wayne Manor just got me thinking.
|
|
|
Post by tarkintino on Aug 17, 2018 10:15:48 GMT -5
We both agree that Mal was prevented from becoming a full-fledged hero because of his race. I disagree that this somehow makes him a stereotype, as your earlier post suggested. I don't believe his boxing skills ever come up again after his first appearance, FWIW. I still maintain that making that one of his character traits/interests was stereotypical, instead of say, an architect, or someone in the biology department at a university--anything other than that typically 1960s media fallback of "black youth fights his way out--with his fists, too!" trope. It seems clear that limitations were placed on what could be done with Mal from day one -- he couldn't have a costume or code name, nor appear on the covers. Boltinoff promised to look into giving Mal a costume last issue in response to numerous fan letters, but Haney's script here seems to indicate to me that someone from up above gave a resounding "no" in response; Mal is going to stay exactly where he is. So Mal even being allowed to appear was just to be Relevancy Flavor of the Moment. Teen Titans #37 (February 1972) "Scourge of the Skeletal Riders!" but, instead of promoting some sort of social change or even using the team to clean up the mess from one of his scientific experiments gone wrong, he orders them into the middle of a civil war to rescue a teen journalist being held by the rebel forces. Seems a little out of their purview <iframe width="9.51999999999998" height="13.78" id="MoatPxIOPT0_78720267" scrolling="no" style="border-style: none; left: 12px; top: 110px; width: 9.52px; height: 13.78px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="9.51999999999998" height="13.78" id="MoatPxIOPT0_23758593" scrolling="no" style="border-style: none; left: 428px; top: 110px; width: 9.52px; height: 13.78px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="9.51999999999998" height="13.78" id="MoatPxIOPT0_83719361" scrolling="no" style="border-style: none; left: 12px; top: 736px; width: 9.52px; height: 13.78px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="9.51999999999998" height="13.78" id="MoatPxIOPT0_82776437" scrolling="no" style="border-style: none; left: 428px; top: 736px; width: 9.52px; height: 13.78px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> While the story is not a winner, the mission would seem like the sort of progressive action Jupiter would support (protecting a young journalist). Well, if Batman can get involved with super-powered extraterrestrials, technology that would easily flatten the average person, then its not so much of a problem... So, its all over the place. The Grady Dawes character should have been introduced as a mere background character a year earlier--just someone referred to, but never taking center stage until the build-up called for it (think early appearances of Norman Osborn, long before he was revealed to be the Green Goblin). Instead...yeah, this means nothing. Yep, still being Relevancy Flavor of the Moment. Nothing more. Its typical of many jumping on the social/political commentary bandwagon of the period; comics, movies, popular music and TV often pulled this "message" crap and came off looking like preachy, inexperienced finger-wagging types not knowing enough about the subject of the message to speak to its importance. Beyond that, as mentioned up-post, a basic writing tool is to layer a character in the background until he's ready to take center stage; here, he's just shoehorned in, that's that, and the audience was supposed to gasp...or something. The creatives behind this should stopped trying the commentary and just send the teens to Collinwood, where Lilith's long-lost, scoundrel of a cousin goes missing for a few days, only to show up with teeth marks on his wrist, and nearly drained of all of his blood volume....
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,812
|
Post by shaxper on Aug 17, 2018 10:41:45 GMT -5
I still maintain that making that one of his character traits/interests was stereotypical, instead of say, an architect, or someone in the biology department at a university--anything other than that typically 1960s media fallback of "black youth fights his way out--with his fists, too!" trope. SO are we then saying that black characters CAN'T have athletic ability? Kanigher doesn't present Mal as loving to box. He presents Mal as using boxing as a means of taking down the wrongdoers around him. It was the only tool available to him, which feels more accurate than racist to me. Once Mr. Jupiter provides him with other means, Mal never mentions boxing again. Quite the opposite. There was tremendous resistance to even putting a black character in the book, as I've discussed repeatedly. There was nothing easy nor convenient about having Mal as an active character. We both would have liked to see the character truly experience equality on the page, but this was still a significant step in the right direction that did not come about easily. Less that, and more that the character was now on the team, but someone seemed to be trying to avoid actively using him. I don't think anyone was trying to proudly show Mal off as a token symbol of social relevance. They were keeping him off the cover, keeping him out of uniform, and (in this issue) keeping him off-panel and out of the action too. I would have settled for an overly preachy social message. I don't feel like we even got that. You and Dark Shadows, man...
|
|
|
Post by tarkintino on Aug 20, 2018 0:59:18 GMT -5
Quite the opposite. There was tremendous resistance to even putting a black character in the book, as I've discussed repeatedly. There was nothing easy nor convenient about having Mal as an active character. We both would have liked to see the character truly experience equality on the page, but this was still a significant step in the right direction that did not come about easily. That's why its flavor--add the black character, but due to no legitimate (read: ethical) reason, he's just there as if making a point. If they really wanted to go in the Marvel direction, they should have tossed whatever their caution was to the winds & taken a cue from Black Panther, who was already a quickly developing character in his 1966 debut, and certainly gained a significant fleshing out in a far shorter time than anything we would ever see with Mal. I was not saying DC was proudly displaying him, hence the term flavor in relation to a social or political act; its just there to be there as if taking a stand...without really doing it. Hey, it would not be easy to go there if many horror or horror-themed comics did not take The Last Train to Collinwood in this period with an emphasis on a modern twist on gothic horror that read like it was borrowed from the Dan Curtis playbook.
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,812
|
Post by shaxper on Aug 24, 2018 18:57:17 GMT -5
Quite the opposite. There was tremendous resistance to even putting a black character in the book, as I've discussed repeatedly. There was nothing easy nor convenient about having Mal as an active character. We both would have liked to see the character truly experience equality on the page, but this was still a significant step in the right direction that did not come about easily. That's why its flavor--add the black character, but due to no legitimate (read: ethical) reason, he's just there as if making a point. If they really wanted to go in the Marvel direction, they should have tossed whatever their caution was to the winds & taken a cue from Black Panther, who was already a quickly developing character in his 1966 debut, and certainly gained a significant fleshing out in a far shorter time than anything we would ever see with Mal. I was not saying DC was proudly displaying him, hence the term flavor in relation to a social or political act; its just there to be there as if taking a stand...without really doing it. But you continue to approach the issue as if everyone involved in the comic were on the same page, simply agreeing to include the character but also not do much with him. At the risk of repeating myself, it wasn't that simple. Mal was caught between opposing forces at DC, some of which (Wolfman, Wein, Giordano, Skeates) wanted him on equal footing with the rest of the team, and some of which (Infantino, possibly Boltinoff and/or Haney) would have preferred Mal weren't there at all.
|
|
|
Post by Reptisaurus! on Aug 24, 2018 23:05:12 GMT -5
That doesn't seem right to me. Silver Age DC was very much defined by editorial fiefdoms. The only people who's opinion mattered were Boltinoff and the guys above him.
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,812
|
Post by shaxper on Aug 25, 2018 8:00:13 GMT -5
That doesn't seem right to me. Silver Age DC was very much defined by editorial fiefdoms. The only people who's opinion mattered were Boltinoff and the guys above him. See the story behind Teen Titans #21. We know less about how Mal got made, but we do know Wolfman, Wein, and Giordano all pushed for it while Infantino would have continued to have the same concerns he had with Jericho only a year earlier. My guess is that no one had any objections to a black member of Mr. Jupiter's non-hero team (the Secret Six had a black member, as did the Newsboy Legion) but once Boltinoff put them back in licensed superhero costumes, there was suddenly a tension with Mal being a member.
|
|