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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 24, 2019 22:11:00 GMT -5
Mal and Karen did not turn up in Secret Society, as that one was killed by the Implosion. There were plans on continuing the Freedom Fighters storyline there; but, the series was cancelled with the issue before. The finished art did show up in Cancelled Comic Cavalcade. Secret Society became a bit of a dumping ground fo cancelled ideas; but, ironically, was cancelled before most could be published. It even started that way, as it picked up the New Gods, with Darkseid being the puppet master of the team, with Manhunter (a clone) there as an infiltration agent, and, then, Captain Comet added as a nemesis for the team. Of course, it also suffered from heavy creative rotation, as a lot of new books at DC did.
This was a real transformation period from DC, as the old guard was finally pushed out and Kahn & Levitz started putting together a new team. It took time to pay off; but did so in a big way.
I had this issue and it was fine. I think, at this point, i knew this title was struggling. There were some ideas that just never came together. It is why, when the first issue came out, I was all over New Teen Titans #1. Once I saw the Perez art, I was definitely in for the long haul. Luckily, so were Wolfman & Perez.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 24, 2019 22:15:46 GMT -5
Does this mean Robin can " know her" in the biblical sense now that he defeated her in combat ala Red Sonja? While Ortiz's pencils in that panel might make Robin look about 18, he was probably only around 13 or 14 at this point. So...I hope not? Everybody knows there's no expiration date .  |
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Post by tarkintino on Jan 25, 2019 3:39:53 GMT -5
Teen Titans #53 (February 1978)  "In the Beginning ..." Script: Bob Rozakis Pencils: Juan Ortiz Inks: John Fuller Colors: Gene D'Angelo Letters: Ben Oda The problem is that Rozakis was a much a hack as 70s TV writers who resorted to "clip shows" when they were either an episode short, they reached the end of the season or series, or other reasns having nothing to with a story that had to be told. This final issue is just that--a clip show that has no greater meaning for the title, and it could be argued that up to that point in history, TT fans were not exactly kicking in the doors at DC, complaining that the Brave and Bold 1st appearances were not sufficient enough to be origin stories. Given the time when this was created, Ortiz was trying (but failing) to channel the look of TV's Wonder Woman, Lynda carter--  ...but Ortiz's astoundingly crude art was going nowhere near the visual "interest" created by Carter. At the time, the series suffering such an ignominious end was not a shock, as many DC titles of that time were just awful, and the revival all but trashed the memory of the 1960s/early 70s title. I've seen failed revival attempts before (the 70s Doom Patrol and Archie's 1980s Red Circle line comes to mind), but the Titans was a total crash and burn of anything the often struggling Silver Age run tried to accomplish. Rozakis has made his excuses, but he's never truly owned up to the failings of his vision for a title that could have spelled the end of the Teen Titans as a concept. Great. I hope that includes DC Comics Presents #26. |
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Post by shaxper on Jan 25, 2019 7:31:35 GMT -5
Then...New Teen Titans from the Beginning! Great. I hope that includes DC Comics Presents #26. New Teen Titans from the beginning 😉 |
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Post by brutalis on Jan 25, 2019 8:54:55 GMT -5
This has been interesting reading shaxper as I only ever had a few of these to read during my youth. It helps to place the team in context of the times they were published and their growth from generic kid side kicks into creative and evocative teen age individuals. As much love and adoration there is for the Perez and Wolfman iteration in the 80's, their version would never have happened if not for the original series and their constant evolution to "speak" to the current young readers of when they were printing. Thanks for the reviews sir. Great job! |
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Post by shaxper on Jan 25, 2019 9:04:47 GMT -5
As much love and adoration there is for the Perez and Wolfman iteration in the 80's, their version would never have happened if not for the original series and their constant evolution to "speak" to the current young readers of when they were printing. I intend to spend more time processing this, but as of now, I feel like fandom and fan letters surrounding Teen Titans vol. 1 shaped Wolfman's writing even more than the published Teen Titans vol. 1 stories themselves. And, of course, there's the X-Men influence that I intend to speak to quite a bit. It continues to astound me that New Teen Titans came less than three years after the original volume concluded as, in so many respects, it feels like a different creature entirely. Wolfman never ignores the past, but he certainly isn't over-concerned with allowing it to steer the series and its characters. I'm glad to have this context when approaching the new volume as well, but we'll see just how much of it matters down the road. You are so welcome, sir! Thanks for the enthusiasm  |
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Post by spoon on Jan 25, 2019 21:04:19 GMT -5
As much love and adoration there is for the Perez and Wolfman iteration in the 80's, their version would never have happened if not for the original series and their constant evolution to "speak" to the current young readers of when they were printing. I intend to spend more time processing this, but as of now, I feel like fandom and fan letters surrounding Teen Titans vol. 1 shaped Wolfman's writing even more than the published Teen Titans vol. 1 stories themselves. And, of course, there's the X-Men influence that I intend to speak to quite a bit. It continues to astound me that New Teen Titans came less than three years after the original volume concluded as, in so many respects, it feels like a different creature entirely. Wolfman never ignores the past, but he certainly isn't over-concerned with allowing it to steer the series and its characters. I'm glad to have this context when approaching the new volume as well, but we'll see just how much of it matters down the road. You are so welcome, sir! Thanks for the enthusiasm I discovered something interesting today when looking up when the last issue of Teen Titans and the first issue of New Teen Titans went on sale. The gap between the two series almost matches up with the duration of John Byrne's run on X-Men. The last issue of Teen Titans was on the stands the same month as Byrne's second issue of X-Men (#109 - Guardian's first appearance), while the first issue of New Teen Titans came out the same month as Uncanny X-Men #139 (the fourth from last Byrne issue; part 1 of the Wendigo two-parter). |
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Post by shaxper on Jan 28, 2019 9:05:18 GMT -5
I discovered something interesting today when looking up when the last issue of Teen Titans and the first issue of New Teen Titans went on sale. The gap between the two series almost matches up with the duration of John Byrne's run on X-Men. The last issue of Teen Titans was on the stands the same month as Byrne's second issue of X-Men (#109 - Guardian's first appearance), while the first issue of New Teen Titans came out the same month as Uncanny X-Men #139 (the fourth from last Byrne issue; part 1 of the Wendigo two-parter). A worthwhile point. Perhaps more immediately significant is how both events correlate to the Dark Phoenix Saga. I don't know the reasons for Byrne leaving X-Men, but it seems reasonable to assume Shooter's interference in that storyline may have played a significant part. Meanwhile, that story drew some massive attention to the property, which likely had DC editorial asking "Why don't we have a team like that?" Wolfman and Perez responding with a hearty "Hold my beer." |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 28, 2019 10:45:38 GMT -5
Byrne left to do his own books. He was still
In love with Shooter at the time. He was banging heads with Claremont over the direction of the book.
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Post by shaxper on Jan 28, 2019 19:49:31 GMT -5
The Unrealized StoriesIn 1978, DC cancelled the Teen Titans title for the second time. While the letter column alleges this was due to low sales, Len Wein has since claimed that DC editorial was embarrassed by the quality of the series. 1, and writer Bob Rozakis has since claimed editorial objected to the concept of a team of junior superheroes itself. 1Regardless of the why, it left Bob Rozakis with a series of unrealized ideas he never got to flesh out. Below are some unrealized ideas he has discussed in various interviews over the years:
Regarding Titans West...- Apparently, Rozakis had no illusions of launching a second title. He planned to alternate his focus between the two teams within the single existing volume and occasionally have the two teams work together. 2- Speedy and Donna would have joined Titans West, while Betty Kane and one male member (Rozakis either hadn't decided or doesn't recall) would have joined Titans East. 2- Kid Flash would have ended up helping out both teams, thanks to his super speed. 3Regarding Mal's missing horn...- Mal subconsciously lost or hid it himself due to his experiencing severe self-doubt about his being a superhero. Rozakis intended to have Mal move further and further away from the team while Bumblebee worked to bring him back. At some point, she would have ended up in a perilous situation that would have required Mal to suit up again in order to save her. 3 Rozakis never indicates which identity Mal would return to, but his interviews explicitly state that the only reason he abandoned the Guardian persona was because of Julie Schwartz, and the fan letters clearly preferred the Guardian identity too. Regarding romances...- Rozakis envisioned a Titans East love triangle among Robin, Harlequin, and Betty Kane. 2 Of course, this is on top of the love triangle Rozakis is setting up among Robin, Babs Gordon, and Lori Elton over in Batman Family. - In a conflicting interview, Rozakis suggests that Speedy and Harlequin would have ended up together. 3- Rozakis also envisioned a triangle among Speedy, Wonder Girl, and Kid Flash. 3Regarding Aqualad...- Rozakis acknowledges an intention to further marginalize Aqualad. He's never clear on whether he would have allowed Aqualad to quit, but he does concede that, "Short of having the action take place in the ocean (or the Farmingdale High School swimming pool) there really wasn’t much need for him". 3- In one interview, Rozakis indicates that Aqualad would have joined Titans West, though he mentions this in no other interviews that I have seen. 41 Shurt, S. (2002, November 11). Bob Rozakis' Teen Titans Plans. Retrieved January 28, 2019, from www.titanstower.com/bob-rozakis-teen-titans-plans/2 Burkert, T. (1981, July). Teen Titans History. Amazing Heroes, 1(2). 3 Bob Rozakis Teen Titans Interview. (2003, March 24). Retrieved January 28, 2019, from www.titanstower.com/bob-rozakis-teen-titans-interview/4 Cadigan, G. (2008). Titans Companion. Raleigh, NC: TwoMorrows Pub.
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Post by tarkintino on Jan 28, 2019 20:41:25 GMT -5
I've never read the work of another writer that is the actual representation of the term, "meh" as that rolled out by Rozakis. If DC had been sleeping on the job of cutting poor series, the Titans as a concept would have limped along into the 1980s, where Rozakis' ideas and tone would be as out of place as trying to sell 1940s Andy Hardy-ized Archie as cool and relevant in the 1970s. Probably killing it to the point where no one would ever think of revisiting it.
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Post by Chris on Jan 28, 2019 21:07:55 GMT -5
- Kid Flash would have ended up helping out both teams, thanks to his super speed. 3 I would have read that. Kid Flash was my favorite Titan. Rozakis never indicates which identity Mal would return to, but his interviews explicitly state that the only reason he abandoned the Guardian persona was because of Julie Schwartz, and the fan letters clearly preferred the Guardian identity too. I was going to ponder something, but since you mentioned other Titan appearances and a couple "bonuses," I'll hold off. |
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Post by Crimebuster on Jan 28, 2019 21:44:21 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I just read an interview with Jenette Kahn, who goes over twice in the same interview the pitch meeting where Len Wein and Marv Wolfman tried to convince her to launch New Teen Titans. From Back Issue #57:
"I remember Len and Marv coming in, pitching Teen Titans, and at first, I was thinking, "Teen Titans? What a lame comic. Who cares about these teenage imitations?"
The second time, she describes it like so:
"I had read The Teen Titans as we had been publishing them, and I thought, "Oh, no. These comics are so lame." But Marv and Len came into my office and said, "You're right. Those are lame, but we see them differently."
So I don't know about sales, but it seems that both Wien and Rozakis are correct when they say that editorial was embarrassed by the comics, and thought the concept of a teen superhero team was lame.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 29, 2019 1:09:27 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I just read an interview with Jenette Kahn, who goes over twice in the same interview the pitch meeting where Len Wein and Marv Wolfman tried to convince her to launch New Teen Titans. From Back Issue #57: "I remember Len and Marv coming in, pitching Teen Titans, and at first, I was thinking, "Teen Titans? What a lame comic. Who cares about these teenage imitations?" The second time, she describes it like so: "I had read The Teen Titans as we had been publishing them, and I thought, "Oh, no. These comics are so lame." But Marv and Len came into my office and said, "You're right. Those are lame, but we see them differently." So I don't know about sales, but it seems that both Wien and Rozakis are correct when they say that editorial was embarrassed by the comics, and thought the concept of a teen superhero team was lame. That quote suggests it wasn't the idea of a teen team as much as a team of teen copies of adult heroes (in her eyes). Had the team been more original characters, rather than juniors or sidekicks, she might have thought of the concept differently. As it was, the Wolfman Perez revamp is split 50-50 (well, depending on point of view) between sidekicks/juniors and more unique characters (Beast Boy/Changeling was a junior Doom Patrol guy; but, a unique character within that group and the Titans). |
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Post by zaku on Jan 29, 2019 6:41:46 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I just read an interview with Jenette Kahn, who goes over twice in the same interview the pitch meeting where Len Wein and Marv Wolfman tried to convince her to launch New Teen Titans. From Back Issue #57: "I remember Len and Marv coming in, pitching Teen Titans, and at first, I was thinking, "Teen Titans? What a lame comic. Who cares about these teenage imitations?" The second time, she describes it like so: "I had read The Teen Titans as we had been publishing them, and I thought, "Oh, no. These comics are so lame." But Marv and Len came into my office and said, "You're right. Those are lame, but we see them differently." So I don't know about sales, but it seems that both Wien and Rozakis are correct when they say that editorial was embarrassed by the comics, and thought the concept of a teen superhero team was lame. It's interesting how she was more interested in what the new format would be rather in who materially would write it. If anything, history of comics has taught us that a good writer can obtain good stories from incredibly lame concepts (and the reverse is true too). ETA: and probably the first series of Young Justice was conceptually very similar to the first series of Teen Titans (a group of young sidekick), still it's fondly remembered. |
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