shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 4, 2019 11:26:15 GMT -5
Interesting to wonder how the Titans would have played out had they become solo heroes and the NTT didn't happen. Would Robin have become Nightwing? Would Wally have become the Flash? Would several of the Titans have been killed off in the Crisis? In my fan-fic mind, Robin would have become Nightwing as some Crisis result. Flash would have died still with Wally taking up his mantle. Wonder Girl would have come through unscathed, and perhaps Wonder Woman's reboot would have happened, but be retroactive (to allow for WG). I can imagine them setting up a new team consisting of Nightwing, Flash, Wonder Girl, Kole (she would be the same crystal spinning character, but be a member for some Crisis reason) , Mal in some role, and possibly a revamped Bumblebee? Perhaps they would have killed off Beast Boy, Harlequin, Gnarkk, Dove, Bat-Girl, Mr. Jupiter, and Golden Eagle in the Crisis. Interesting ideas all around. From my perspective, without the NTT, the Post-Crisis reboot could have been a more consistently-handled clean reset. No reason to hold on to any past continuity if DC's top selling title doesn't have two feet stuck in the Pre-Crisis. Robin could be a young Dick Grayson again, leading a re-conceived team of kids and kid side-kicks written for a new generation. Would it have been any good? Who knows. It certainly would have been different.
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Post by Prince Hal on Feb 4, 2019 11:43:24 GMT -5
I had no idea you would mention this book. It's awesome that you did. I would love to see you do a standalone review of it. Question for Flash experts: Do any Wally/Barry/Jay stories of the Silver or Bronze Age involve the three of them chasing something through time? I'm hardly a Flash expert, but this issue leapt to mind immediately because of the cover: However, a glance at the synopsis at the irreplaceable Mike's (http://www.mikesamazingworld.com/mikes/features/comic.php?comicid=10231) reveals it's not a time travel story.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2019 13:04:54 GMT -5
Taking the characters back to being younger would have made sense (assuming the NTT never came into being). With it being the 80s, would Lilith had been reimagined as a vapid Valley Girl (which we got with Flamebird) ? A new wave Bumblebee? The more I think about it, there are lots of fun ideas to be had there! I remember when the NTT was launched, I read it mainly to see Robin, Kid Flash, and Wonder Girl and kept waiting for the other "real" Titans to show up and replace Starfire, Raven, Cyborg, and Changeling, hahaha! Kole was a character I really liked. Sad that she was created just for a Titans casualty in the Crisis along with Dove.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 4, 2019 14:46:12 GMT -5
Taking the characters back to being younger would have made sense (assuming the NTT never came into being). With it being the 80s, would Lilith had been reimagined as a vapid Valley Girl (which we got with Flamebird) ? A new wave Bumblebee? The more I think about it, there are lots of fun ideas to be had there! I remember when the NTT was launched, I read it mainly to see Robin, Kid Flash, and Wonder Girl and kept waiting for the other "real" Titans to show up and replace Starfire, Raven, Cyborg, and Changeling, hahaha! Kole was a character I really liked. Sad that she was created just for a Titans casualty in the Crisis along with Dove. I suspect Lilith, Mal, Karen, and Duela all would have been abandoned entirely due to general obscurity/lack of wide reader interest. Come to think of it, I wouldn't have been too surprised to see Donna, Wally, and Roy scrapped too. As comics were growing more mature, the idea of a kid sidekick was becoming passé. Dick would be Robin rather than Jason Todd, and eventually, whenever DC felt it was time to renew the license, he may or may not have been the one to lead a Post-Crisis iteration of the Teen Titans that (I can only suspect) would have emphasized teen heroes over teen sidekicks. Who can say what the membership lineup would have looked like?
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Post by Chris on Feb 4, 2019 14:54:20 GMT -5
Did the DC Implosion Save the Teen Titans?
By the end of 1978, on the cusp of the promised "DC Explosion"... DC was planning a significant expansion of titles, most or all of the team members were being considered for solo features, including: *Kid Flash in a tentative Flash Family title 3 Kid Flash was the backup series in The Flash, and two installments appeared in #265 and #266. #267 was a Barry Allen story, "The Secret of Flash's Uniform." #268 reverted to the 17-page story format as a result of the Implosion. #269 was a book-length teamup of Flash and Kid Flash, which ran 23 pages, and was most likely written and drawn before the Implosion decree was issued. DC had several post-Implosion books that ran 18-25 pages through out the first half of 1979 because they were completed (or close to completion) at the time the line of comics was slashed. Batman #308, for example. I wouldn't be surprised if it was originally supposed to be 25 pages, like the other Explosion books, but with last minute editing to cut it down in order to allow more ads to fit. And issue #325 (1983) has a Kid Flash backup story that, according to the editor, was prepared a few years prior, but never printed, which fits in well with the Explosion/Implosion timeline. They even had a page redone to adjust for the then-current New Teen Titans continuity. So it appears that Kid Flash was to be the ongoing backup feature, with the occasional full-length Flash/Kid Flash teamup mixed in. Had the DC Implosion of 1979 not occurred... 1978.
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 4, 2019 14:55:15 GMT -5
Given the talent working on most DC titles of the era, I doubt that any Titan solos, other than Robin, were going to have much mileage. DC was struggling with many series, with seasoned vets and new talent. I do think editorial was a big problem, as suggested by the stories of Levitz and Kahn fighting entrenched editorial offices to move DC into the future. Most of the material prepared for the Explosion demonstrates that it was less a dearth of ideas that caused failure; but, execution of those ideas. Even after pushing out some of the old guard and attracting new talent, DC still took some bring the level of quality for the entire line up to snuff. Englehart contributed a few scripts and then buggered off to Europe. Conway hit a lot of grounders with his material Even Firestorm had a short life, until revived a few years later, with Pat Broderick amping up the art. DC had to do some tearing down to get to the point where series were starting to gel. Even Titans took a little time to really come together. It starts with a bang; but, it kind of slows down toward the end of the first year and it takes a little time to get going again.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 4, 2019 15:03:56 GMT -5
Had the DC Implosion of 1979 not occurred... 1978. Thanks!
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Post by shaxper on Feb 4, 2019 15:06:40 GMT -5
Given the talent working on most DC titles of the era, I doubt that any Titan solos, other than Robin, were going to have much mileage. Oh, I agree. None of them were going to be break-away sensations. But if they could allow DC to keep the trademarks in print and fared comparably to Rozakis' Titans, DC was going to be happy. If Wolfman came in with a pitch for a team revival, there would be absolutely no need -- those characters are being put to use. I doubt anyone had any expectation that the characters could be used better.
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Post by tarkintino on Feb 4, 2019 15:17:42 GMT -5
Given the talent working on most DC titles of the era, I doubt that any Titan solos, other than Robin, were going to have much mileage. Exactly, and even Robin--the most famous of all teen / young adult sidekicks--was never so much of an "A-List" character (if he ever was one) that he was going to earn a solo title. Some titles were already working well: Green Lantern ended the decade and started the next) with a solid O'Neil run, that expanded both the emotional angles he originally brought to the title, and the larger sci-fi concepts, which were GL's best environment. Meanwhile, the Legion of Superheroes had consistently interesting-to-compelling Paul Levitz, Gerry Conway (a darling / "win" for the title after his historic work on The Amazing Spider-Man) and Jim Starlin (aka "Steve Apollo") scripts continuing the slick, adult stories of Carey Bates from earlier that decade. In other words, both titles were doing more than just surviving the disaster that hit DC--they were moving onward and upward for a time. But NTT's foundation and inspiration was so strong that it was already perceived as if it were an entirely new title with no baggage / chains from its previous incarnation, thus whatever growing pains the title had, readers were so interested in that new direction, that they would weather just about anything--not that there was much to weather in that book.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Feb 5, 2019 0:57:01 GMT -5
Taking the characters back to being younger would have made sense (assuming the NTT never came into being). With it being the 80s, would Lilith had been reimagined as a vapid Valley Girl (which we got with Flamebird) ? A new wave Bumblebee? The more I think about it, there are lots of fun ideas to be had there! I remember when the NTT was launched, I read it mainly to see Robin, Kid Flash, and Wonder Girl and kept waiting for the other "real" Titans to show up and replace Starfire, Raven, Cyborg, and Changeling, hahaha! Kole was a character I really liked. Sad that she was created just for a Titans casualty in the Crisis along with Dove. I don't know... the era of the young sidekick was certainly over... we had things like Rhodey with Iron Man... Cap and the Falcon, etc. I can't imagine de-aging anyone. It would seem more likely that any alternate NTT concept would have looked more like Marvel's New Warriors instead... a group of characters no one else knew what to do with. I could totally see Robin leading such a team, but new creations like Starfire, Raven, and Cyborg would have been ore likely to have been retreads... many of the old Titans could well fall into that category, but they'd be most likely to try a new mix of some sort. maybe some of the Charlton Heroes? supporting characters like Firehawk? Huntress? Even Batgirl?
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 7, 2019 16:28:34 GMT -5
Brave and the Bold #149 (April 1979) "Look Homeward, Runaway!" Script: Bob Haney Pencils: Jim Aparo Inks: Jim Aparo Colors: Jerry Serpe Letters: Jim Aparo Grade: C- Three guys named Bob walk into a franchise. The first, Bob Haney, plasters the walls with go-go checks, plays some groovy records, and creates a place where teens can feel comfortable and respected. It works for a while. Then, eventually, folks get tired of the place, maybe even find it a little condescending. People stop coming, so Bob Kanigher says "Let's try something different". Bob Haney gets kicked out, and this second Bob pulls the go-go checks off the walls, shuts off the jukebox, and creates a more stripped-down, no-nonsense place that's focused on a social message. People don't like it. Bob H. wanders back in and starts telling ghost stories. It's random and kind of fun, but the police get called, and he's soon out of there again. That's when Bob Rozakis decides it's his turn. He hits up the local garage sales, buys up some truly kitsch furnishings from the 1950s, staples them to the walls, and starts laughing at his own jokes while people walk in, stare for a moment, and then leave again. Eventually, Rozakis is escorted out too. A few minutes later, there's a large implosion heard outside and half the universe dies, Thanos style. The place is silent for a good long while. Then Bob Haney walks back in, peels off the new decorations, and plays the jukebox one last time. And there's the crux of this (semi) final Haney story. There's neither an attempt to acknowledge Rozakis continuity nor fly in the face of it. It truly feels as if Haney is just totally unaware anything was ever done with the Titans property after 1969 (including his own second run with the title). And, in the wake of the DC Implosion, it's not like anyone else had any plans for this franchise, so he's free to treat the team as he pleases. Thus, we're back to Haney's ideal line-up, free of the later characters that were added by those other Bobs: though, to be fair, Dick Giordano credits Wolfman and Wein with the creation of Kanigher's additionsand they're back to the same old schtick, willing to drop everything (even after they disbanded) to help Batman infiltrate an organization of teen criminals: And, as usual, the problem was never really the teens, but rather some greedy adult, corrupting them for his own gain. The only real excitement to be found in this story is awaiting the revelation of who the mysterious "The Man" is, running the show. However, he is finally revealed to be no one we knew previously, and with absolutely zero characterization. It's a total letdown. You can't really call this Haney's final word on the franchise he created. It's a throw-away story, perhaps even something pulled from inventory after a full decade in order to make a deadline. Fortunately, Haney does have one last Teen Titans story left to tell... Minor Details:- Whereas Rozakis was constantly working to de-power the Titans, Haney has them more powerful than ever, Kid Flash able to disarm an entire gang, unload their guns, inspect the bullets, and put the guns back without their even seeing it: and Wonder Girl now apparently able to perfectly mimic any voice she hears: - I thought Donna's shirt while working with the teen thugs was an impressive choice: ...until I realized Rozakis was actually doing this ironically, Donna trying to play some sort of evil, misguided feminazi while under cover: How very disappointing. - Nothing like kissing up to the boss mid-story:
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Post by rberman on Feb 7, 2019 17:35:15 GMT -5
This does seem rather lightweight compared to what was going on at Marvel this month. Perhaps the "Teen" part was interpreted to keep things low-key?
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Post by shaxper on Feb 7, 2019 17:40:03 GMT -5
This does seem rather lightweight compared to what was going on at Marvel this month. Perhaps the "Teen" part was interpreted to keep things low-key? I doubt Haney had any particular concerns with what the X-Men were doing at the moment.
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Post by tarkintino on Feb 7, 2019 18:31:39 GMT -5
The only saving grace of that Brave and the Bold issue was the ever-enjoyable pencils of Jim Aparo. After that...bleh.
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 7, 2019 21:11:44 GMT -5
Haney never cared about continuity in any of his stories. he was concerned about the hook of the current tale and little else, apart from deadline. In some ways that was refreshing, especially when youare young or not steeped in continuity. In others, it is frustrating if you are the reverse. I don't recall seeing this story (though I have scans of all of the Brave & the Bold issues. I have no dog in the hunt, as far as quality, though Aparo makes anything at least nice to look at. My bating average with Haney is better than some; so, i tend to cut him some slack.
At hsi point and time and just before, I'd say the Legion writers were the only ones who got the teen aspect (though the Legion always felt more like adults, in the Bronze Age), which is probably why it weathered ths period better than most, leading to its greatest period.
I always considered Brave & the Bold stories to exist in their own little world, anyway. Pretty much the same with World's Finest, Marvel Team-Up and Marvel Two-in-One. Yeah, they were occasionally referenced elsewhere (more the Marvel books); but, more often than not, they were their own little sideshow, where what happened there stayed there.
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