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Post by Ozymandias on Aug 23, 2016 9:49:32 GMT -5
I just finished reading the original title, up to #202. There was much to like, starting with some select Lee issues, and ending with the Avengers/Defenders crossover. In between, a good chuck of the Thomas-Buscema run is worth mentioning, without forgetting The Kree/Skrull War or the Barry Smith trilogy. But overall, what I liked the most is what I was expecting to, given previous experience: the late 70's. George and John penciled 43 (green) out of the 51 (black) comics included in this thread, which comprises The Avengers regular series, from November 1975 to December 1980. As a bonus, I'll be covering Marvel Team-Up #59-60 and Marvel Premiere #47-48 (all of them by Byrne, all of them featuring Yellow Jacket). On the other hand, there's quite a bunch I'm going to skip (red): - Avengers 141-144
- Avengers 145-146
- Avengers 147-151
- Avengers 152
- Avengers 153
- Avengers Annual 6
- Avengers 154-159
- Avengers 160-162
- Marvel Team-Up 59-60
- Avengers 163
- Avengers 164-168
- Avengers 169
- Avengers 170-171
- Avengers 172-177
- Avengers 178-180
- Marvel Premiere 47-48
- Avengers 181-191
- Avengers 192-193
- Avengers 194-196
- Avengers 197
- Avengers 198-202
If anyone's interested in reviewing any of them, or wants to know the reason by I left them out, the following posts are a good place to do just that. I'm quite surprised to see this era, being neglected for so long in the CCF, so let's remedy the situation. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 10:09:29 GMT -5
I would be very interested in reading what you said about the partnership of Perez and Byrne - in their work on the Avengers.
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Post by berkley on Aug 23, 2016 18:51:51 GMT -5
I'd like to hear about some of them, because I think there are a few particular issues by fill-in artists who were not at all bad in their own right, but those issues still highlight how important the Perez artwork was to making his run a classic for me. Shooter's Korvac Saga, for example, lost all its steam for me as soon as Perez wasn't doing the art. In contrast, Englehart's run reamins a classic pretty much no matter who was drawing the particular issue, though I do wish the Englehart/Perez team had lasted much longer.
So I'd be curious to hear if anyone else feels the same way and if not, why not.
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Post by hondobrode on Aug 23, 2016 19:44:24 GMT -5
Anxious to read this.
The first 100 issues had some good stuff in it, obviously, but the folowing 100 were better IMO though I haven't read them all.
Perez and Byrne were absolute stand outs on the art and really made those stories special.
I remember them so well.
Not everyone and their cousin's mother was an Avenger back then.
There was just one Avengers title back then, and we liked it. Yeah !
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 23, 2016 20:26:14 GMT -5
Anxious to read this. The first 100 issues had some good stuff in it, obviously, but the folowing 100 were better IMO though I haven't read them all. Perez and Byrne were absolute stand outs on the art and really made those stories special. I remember them so well. Not everyone and their cousin's mother was an Avenger back then. There was just one Avengers title back then, and we liked it. Yeah ! Kids didn't use swears. And they stayed off my lawn!! |
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Post by hondobrode on Aug 23, 2016 20:32:46 GMT -5
Yeah !
and we liked it !
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 23, 2016 21:20:29 GMT -5
I'd say that I'll play along...and I may try. But my attention span for comics is incredibly short any more so I suspect it won't last long.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 21:38:23 GMT -5
I am guessing you are skipping the Attuma and Graviton stories in the 150s because neither Byrne nor Perez did the art, but the story developments (both plot and character wise) in those stories by Conway and Shooter are germane to the Korvac saga that Shooter is building towards and many of the plot threads introduced in these issues are important to the events as that story progresses. Many of the mysteries that perplex the Avengers in that era and the character arcs that play out in hat saga were introduced in these issues. But it's your show, proceed as you see best.
-M
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Post by Ozymandias on Aug 24, 2016 7:20:31 GMT -5
I am guessing you are skipping the Attuma and Graviton stories in the 150s because neither Byrne nor Perez did the art, but the story developments (both plot and character wise) in those stories by Conway and Shooter are germane to the Korvac saga that Shooter is building towards and many of the plot threads introduced in these issues are important to the events as that story progresses. Many of the mysteries that perplex the Avengers in that era and the character arcs that play out in hat saga were introduced in these issues. But it's your show, proceed as you see best. -M Those stories with Attuma and Graviton, and the one in the middle ( A Ghost of Stone!) are cut out, mainly, because they don't pull their weight. It's a pity that Pérez wasn't assigned Avengers #158-159, as I'm sure he would've been able to make them work, but instead, he had to pick up 154-155, which were more problematic. Tyrak appeared later, as a direct result of his defeats in those issues, but if you invest in that storyline, you're likely to lose more than you gain, once you arrive at the crossover ( Super-Villain Team-Up #9). If I'm not mistaken, The Korvac Saga starts with issue 167, I don't recall any previous breadcrumbs. Most of the omitted comics are fill-ins, then you have the Conway issues and the early ones by Shooter. Finally, there's a couple of annuals that are mostly independent (the battle with Arsenal is mentioned, though). Nonetheless, even some of the fill-ins may be interesting to some, I'm thinking in particular about Gerber's "off-beat Avengers epic", as stated on the cover. Even Isabella's two-parter was, at least, curious, but falls outside my field of interest. |
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Post by brutalis on Aug 24, 2016 8:43:21 GMT -5
Truly this was the time to be an Avenger's fan. Great stories, great art, great heroes, great villains. While there were plenty of fill in and one and done stories (some good, some not so much) at least there was a variety experienced while maintaining a fairly consistent ongoing advancing story line with characters we loved. A nix mix of classic heroes along with the Big 3. During this time along with the reintroduction of Wonderman and his new friendship with Beast and introducing Graviton and re-branding Nefaria the team was in the throes of some spectacular new ideas at the time.
Once Wonderman went safari jacket and Hollywood with his continued feelings and fears of death and inadequacy he lost much of what made him special. Here was a guy if he would just let himself believe it was as Strong as Thor and Iron Man and the Vision. He should be the Big 4th Avenger. The constant column of strength and courage (he overcame "death" in his own way) to be strong in not just the physical but mentally as well. Continuing to fight for what is right (he was used for evil) and never giving in to doubts. Being a man of wonders, a man of tomorrow in the world of today. And put the man back into something resembling his Green/Red suit please? I know the Perez redesign got a lot of dislike, but i think it was more about the way it was colored too brightly and the green/red sections versus the yellow. Marvel screwed up with Wondy and why did they never go with a Wionderman/Beast solo comic? It would have been an incredible success IMO.
An while you are not reviewing them all, some of the stories you are omitting due to them not being a large part of the continuing story, many are still fun adventures showing the strengths and weakness of the Avengers as a team.
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Post by dbutler69 on Aug 24, 2016 8:50:17 GMT -5
This is an absolute Golden Age for the Avengers! And not just because these two were the primary artists when I started collecting The Avengers.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2016 14:39:09 GMT -5
I am guessing you are skipping the Attuma and Graviton stories in the 150s because neither Byrne nor Perez did the art, but the story developments (both plot and character wise) in those stories by Conway and Shooter are germane to the Korvac saga that Shooter is building towards and many of the plot threads introduced in these issues are important to the events as that story progresses. Many of the mysteries that perplex the Avengers in that era and the character arcs that play out in hat saga were introduced in these issues. But it's your show, proceed as you see best. -M Those stories with Attuma and Graviton, and the one in the middle ( A Ghost of Stone!) are cut out, mainly, because they don't pull their weight. It's a pity that Pérez wasn't assigned Avengers #158-159, as I'm sure he would've been able to make them work, but instead, he had to pick up 154-155, which were more problematic. Tyrak appeared later, as a direct result of his defeats in those issues, but if you invest in that storyline, you're likely to lose more than you gain, once you arrive at the crossover ( Super-Villain Team-Up #9). If I'm not mistaken, The Korvac Saga starts with issue 167, I don't recall any previous breadcrumbs. Most of the omitted comics are fill-ins, then you have the Conway issues and the early ones by Shooter. Finally, there's a couple of annuals that are mostly independent (the battle with Arsenal is mentioned, though). Nonetheless, even some of the fill-ins may be interesting to some, I'm thinking in particular about Gerber's "off-beat Avengers epic", as stated on the cover. Even Isabella's two-parter was, at least, curious, but falls outside my field of interest. Womder Man's doubts about his role a sa hero run through all of those stories. Thor and Panther randomly showing up when needed throughout those stories (from Graviton onwards) were revealed to be the work of the Collector in the 170s to ensure that the Avengers would be there when he needed them to face Korvac, etc. All of those are things and more come from the issues I mentioned and pay off during the Korvac saga. Yes, there were a lot of fill-in, i.e. inventory stories, but not every story not by Perez (or Byrne) was a fill-in. That's the thing with assembly line comics, if one particular creator (usually the artist) is unavailable, the show must go on, and they grabbed whatever artist they could to do issues of Avengers in that run because Perez was doing too much at the time to keep the monthly schedule on that book. Inkers, letterers, colorists, could also change almost every issue depending on who was available. Only when the writer was unavailable to plot (not even script, just plot) or the editor couldn't step in for the issue to keep the story moving forward was their an inventory story used to "fill-in" that month (as opposed to reprints which had been the practice a few years early). Consistency in creative teams from month to month was the exception not the rule at Marvel during those years. But as I said, it's your show, and your parameters. -M |
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Post by Ozymandias on Aug 25, 2016 4:08:37 GMT -5
Womder Man's doubts about his role a sa hero run through all of those stories. Thor and Panther randomly showing up when needed throughout those stories (from Graviton onwards) were revealed to be the work of the Collector in the 170s to ensure that the Avengers would be there when he needed them to face Korvac, etc. All of those are things and more come from the issues I mentioned and pay off during the Korvac saga. Yes, there were a lot of fill-in, i.e. inventory stories, but not every story not by Perez (or Byrne) was a fill-in. That's the thing with assembly line comics, if one particular creator (usually the artist) is unavailable, the show must go on, and they grabbed whatever artist they could to do issues of Avengers in that run because Perez was doing too much at the time to keep the monthly schedule on that book. Inkers, letterers, colorists, could also change almost every issue depending on who was available. Only when the writer was unavailable to plot (not even script, just plot) or the editor couldn't step in for the issue to keep the story moving forward was their an inventory story used to "fill-in" that month (as opposed to reprints which had been the practice a few years early). Consistency in creative teams from month to month was the exception not the rule at Marvel during those years. But as I said, it's your show, and your parameters. -M I think Wonder Man's evolution is sufficiently covered, in the included issues. If someone thinks that there's a unique nuance, to his character, that can only be perceived in the excluded ones, by all means point it out. Thor and the Black Panther appear suddenly in Avengers #159, but they do it separately and there doesn't seem to be anything mysterious about it. I'm guessing that Shooter chose to mention Thor (not the Black Panther) battling Ultron (not Graviton) and Nefaria, in Avengers #175, to add depth to the story and solve inconsistency between titles. When I get to #166, I'll explain the differences I see among the two occurrences. Of course, not every story not by Pérez (or Byrne) was a fill-in, that's why I plan on reviewing: 1 by John Buscema, 1 by Carmine Infantino, 2 by Sal Buscema and 4 by David Wenzel. I am, however, leaving out most 150's, regardless of who the artist was (there's a couple by George Pérez among them). To avoid confusion, these are the fill-ins: 145, 146, 163, 169, 178-180, 192 and 193. |
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Post by dbutler69 on Aug 25, 2016 9:55:45 GMT -5
Of course, not every story not by Pérez (or Byrne) was a fill-in, that's why I plan on reviewing: 1 by John Buscema, 1 by Carmine Infantino, 2 by Sal Buscema and 4 by David Wenzel. I am, however, leaving out most 150's, regardless of who the artist was (there's a couple by George Pérez among them). It's been years, but I distinctly remember that Infantino issue. Ugh!  |
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Post by Ozymandias on Aug 26, 2016 6:39:43 GMT -5
Avengers #141If there's one thing that caught my attention about this issue, it had to be Patsy Walker, who had been rescued from oblivion by Steve Englehart. She started as a romance-comedy character in the 40's, and despite success that lasted for more than two decades, her last mag (Patsy and Hedy) finally surrendered to the new kids on the block, by 1967. But it was precisely among super-heroes, that she would find a new life, one that has eventually endured apparent death, and even the last Secret Wars. This is what Englehart had to say about her: He would implement this plan in two phases: - First he made her a secondary character in the second volume of Amazing Adventures, while the Beast was the protagonist.
- Then he had her follow the mutant, shortly after Hank entered the Avengers world. It was here that she would shortly acquire the super-heroine status, that would grant her "immortality".
Before closing this parenthesis on Patsy, I want to mention how other writers would finally resolve the character's past, the one from before joining the Marvel Universe. It would be on the pages of The Defenders, upon her mother's death:  Patsy's presence is at the centre of the most interesting moments, starting with her interruption of an Avengers reunion, much to Hank's embarrassment:  Let's not overlook, from the above scene, how Moon Dragon positions herself as a goddess, alongside Thor. This overbearing attitude, will lead to most of the team members resenting her. At this point in his run, Englehart had given each an every Avenger a distinct voice, but Moon Dragon was without a doubt, on a league all her own.
Once Patsy gets what she wants from Hank, he's called to order by a Captain America who, despite having just rejoined the group, pretty much takes it upon himself to act as chairman, even though Iron Man is standing by his side. This is another running sub-plot, that starts right here:  Things don't quite go as Steve had planned, the Beast may be the group's buffoon, but only because the others judge him for his appearance. He's a scientist, and he takes every opportunity he gets, to remind everyone that his head actually works.
The Beast and Patsy Walker aren't the only characters that Englehart brought over, from Amazing Adventures, there was also Colonel "Buzz" Baxter and (as president of the Roxxon/Brand Corporation), Hugh Jones:  An old male role model, that doesn't take well to the women's liberation movement. This theme will be recurrent throughout this era, although it can hardly be seen as something unique.
Finally, Patsy sees a chance to jump into action, but her impulsiveness actually precipitates the Avengers defeat:  Wanda getting knocked out, leaves her husband momentarily exposed to a treacherous attack, the remaining three Avengers become easy prey. Up to that point, the battle had been rather dull, which allows the future Hellcat, to stand out in this part of the story, too (even if she does so, under a not very favourable light).
George Pérez has a long road of improvement ahead: his panel composition is pretty generic, his page composition suffers because of too much influence, from the likes of Gil Kane, and his art doesn't shine. In the latter aspect, Vinnie Colletta sure plays his part. Nonetheless, his presence encouraged Engelhard to shift, from plots like the one in A Journey to the Centre of the Ant, to a saga where the Beast's previous employers, are the villains. Wasn't it fun, to have a superhero working for "Evil Corp"?
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