Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,211
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Post by Confessor on Sept 11, 2016 21:30:19 GMT -5
I enjoyed Secret Wars for what it was -- big, dumb superhero fun. It was nothing special in terms of being a great story or anything, but it was enjoyable for what it was. I know it's gonna be controversial with some round these parts, but the company wide crossover that I enjoyed the most was Civil War. The concept of superhero registration wasn't new, but it was fascinating to see it play out in the Marvel Universe. I thought it was a exciting story and it gripped me right til the end, with the "death" of Captain America. Really, those were the only two events that stand out for me as being particularly good. Why would you praising the single worst comic story I've ever read, which caused me to stop buying single issues for going on a decade now--and to only buy superhero comics carefully for fear of reading anything like it again, after almost 20 years of just consuming whatever Marvel put out-- be controversial? Ha! Yeah, well...we know you haven't got any taste -- you didn't even like Sins Past!
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Post by berkley on Sept 11, 2016 21:32:17 GMT -5
I enjoyed Secret Wars for what it was -- big, dumb superhero fun. It was nothing special in terms of being a great story or anything, but it was enjoyable for what it was. I know it's gonna be controversial with some round these parts, but the company wide crossover that I enjoyed the most was Civil War. The concept of superhero registration wasn't new, but it was fascinating to see it play out in the Marvel Universe. I thought it was a exciting story and it gripped me right til the end, with the "death" of Captain America. Really, those were the only two events that stand out for me as being particularly good. I wonder if I would have liked Secret Wars if it had come out when I was, say 10 years old. It's possible, but from my earliest comic-reading days I was never much interested in the empty, DC-style superhero comics that Secret Wars reminded me of in a way. And as far as I recall, I think the artwork would have been a turn-off as well. But you never know. What about the more recent Secret Wars, how did everyone like that?
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,211
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Post by Confessor on Sept 11, 2016 21:39:24 GMT -5
I enjoyed Secret Wars for what it was -- big, dumb superhero fun. It was nothing special in terms of being a great story or anything, but it was enjoyable for what it was. I know it's gonna be controversial with some round these parts, but the company wide crossover that I enjoyed the most was Civil War. The concept of superhero registration wasn't new, but it was fascinating to see it play out in the Marvel Universe. I thought it was a exciting story and it gripped me right til the end, with the "death" of Captain America. Really, those were the only two events that stand out for me as being particularly good. I wonder if I would have liked Secret Wars if it had come out when I was, say 10 years old. It's possible, but from my earliest comic-reading days I was never much interested in the empty, DC-style superhero comics that Secret Wars reminded me of in a way. Oh, I definitely think that being an 11-year-old kid when it came out plays a huge part in why I think so highly of Secret Wars. Well, to say I "think highly" of it is probably a bit over the top, but I do like it for the empty (you're so right to use that particular adjective too), silly fun that it is.
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Post by berkley on Sept 11, 2016 21:55:56 GMT -5
I wonder if I would have liked Secret Wars if it had come out when I was, say 10 years old. It's possible, but from my earliest comic-reading days I was never much interested in the empty, DC-style superhero comics that Secret Wars reminded me of in a way. Oh, I definitely think that being an 11-year-old kid when it came out plays a huge part in why I think so highly of Secret Wars. Well, to say I "think highly" of it is probably a bit over the top, but I do like it for the empty (you're so right to use that particular adjective too), silly fun that it is. I realise that my declaration sounds a bit ridiculous - as if the Marvel superhero comics I was attracted to as a young reader were so very deep and profound, Dostoevsky in tights! I should mention that I'm a fan of Mike Zeck's artwork from MoKF, but have never liked what I've seen of it on SW.
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Post by chadwilliam on Sept 12, 2016 0:38:37 GMT -5
Here's another crossover I don't know much about but I'm inclined to think favorably of because of a single tie in I read years ago.
So I take it that the idea behind Acts of Vengeance was to get all the major bad guys attacking the good guys en masse or something, right? Either that or have the villains face off against superheroes they didn't normally encounter and hope for the best?
Well whatever the case, I remember reading Captain America's contribution to the series and being really impressed with a story that might never have been told had this event not come along. I'm sure a lot of creators feel as if they're getting shoehorned into some awful, gimmicky, event designed just to fiddle around with sales figures for a month or two and try to make their involvement as painlessly tenuous as possible when it comes to these things, but Mark Gruenwald recognized the storytelling potential inherent in what had been handed to him and ran with it even if what had been handed to him made no sense. Actually, scratch that - ran with it because it made no sense.
Often times, villains are put together with no thought as to whether or not it makes sense for them to be brought together. Respected Businessman Lex Luthor team up with Serial Killer The Joker? Sure, why not? All you need to know is that they're the two biggest villains in the DC Universe and there you go (a similar logic was behind the decision to have Bane fighting through a crowd of superheroes alongside Doomsday for a scene in Infinite Crisis). I don't know exactly how Dr Doom, The Red Skull, The Kingpin, and Magneto wound up together in the first place, but I suspect the idea wasn't "who would make interesting bedfellows for this storyline" so much as it was "let's just put the biggest names together in one place and see what happens". At least one writer however, took into consideration the fact that although all these guys were villains, at least one of them was a Concentration Camp survivor and the other a Nazi. Would these two really work together? Apparently they would, but the moment their business had been concluded, Magneto asked The Skull for a moment of his time. Telling him of his time spent in a concentration camp as a child, confirming that this Red Skull was the same one of half a century prior, Magneto made it clear that they were not friends and that Skull had better have put his affairs in order before entering the same room as he.
Buying none of this, Magneto treated The Skull as he would any opponent (actually probably worse)
To be honest, maybe this was the plan all along - use Acts of Vengeance to get disparate groups of people together who might appear similar to the reader and then have the writers explain how they're not - but it seems to me that Gruenwald took a powerful set up that perhaps few others recognized and claimed it as his own in a story so great I can't believe it didn't occur decades sooner.
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Post by coke & comics on Sept 12, 2016 4:29:54 GMT -5
Here's another crossover I don't know much about but I'm inclined to think favorably of because of a single tie in I read years ago.
So I take it that the idea behind Acts of Vengeance was to get all the major bad guys attacking the good guys en masse or something, right? Either that or have the villains face off against superheroes they didn't normally encounter and hope for the best?
Well whatever the case, I remember reading Captain America's contribution to the series and being really impressed with a story that might never have been told had this event not come along. I'm sure a lot of creators feel as if they're getting shoehorned into some awful, gimmicky, event designed just to fiddle around with sales figures for a month or two and try to make their involvement as painlessly tenuous as possible when it comes to these things, but Mark Gruenwald recognized the storytelling potential inherent in what had been handed to him and ran with it even if what had been handed to him made no sense. Actually, scratch that - ran with it because it made no sense.
Often times, villains are put together with no thought as to whether or not it makes sense for them to be brought together. Respected Businessman Lex Luthor team up with Serial Killer The Joker? Sure, why not? All you need to know is that they're the two biggest villains in the DC Universe and there you go (a similar logic was behind the decision to have Bane fighting through a crowd of superheroes alongside Doomsday for a scene in Infinite Crisis). I don't know exactly how Dr Doom, The Red Skull, The Kingpin, and Magneto wound up together in the first place, but I suspect the idea wasn't "who would make interesting bedfellows for this storyline" so much as it was "let's just put the biggest names together in one place and see what happens". At least one writer however, took into consideration the fact that although all these guys were villains, at least one of them was a Concentration Camp survivor and the other a Nazi. Would these two really work together? Apparently they would, but the moment their business had been concluded, Magneto asked The Skull for a moment of his time. Telling him of his time spent in a concentration camp as a child, confirming that this Red Skull was the same one of half a century prior, Magneto made it clear that they were not friends and that Skull had better have put his affairs in order before entering the same room as he.
Buying none of this, Magneto treated The Skull as he would any opponent (actually probably worse)
To be honest, maybe this was the plan all along - use Acts of Vengeance to get disparate groups of people together who might appear similar to the reader and then have the writers explain how they're not - but it seems to me that Gruenwald took a powerful set up that perhaps few others recognized and claimed it as his own in a story so great I can't believe it didn't occur decades sooner. Acts of Vengeance is one of those more-backdrop-than-story things. Villains get together and make a plan to trade heroes to fight. So you get a bunch of stories where the hero fights a villain they don't usually fight, with no other real connection between them. Within that premise, some creative teams will tell good stories and some will not. There's not much of a central arc to judge it by.
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 12, 2016 5:37:52 GMT -5
Oh, I definitely think that being an 11-year-old kid when it came out plays a huge part in why I think so highly of Secret Wars. Well, to say I "think highly" of it is probably a bit over the top, but I do like it for the empty (you're so right to use that particular adjective too), silly fun that it is. I realise that my declaration sounds a bit ridiculous - as if the Marvel superhero comics I was attracted to as a young reader were so very deep and profound, Dostoevsky in tights! I should mention that I'm a fan of Mike Zeck's artwork from MoKF, but have never liked what I've seen of it on SW. Theres a reason for that. They told Zeck to tone down his artwork for the series. I guess they were trying to sell toys and they wanted it simple. I was 24 when SW came out. The novelty of having all the heroes in one story that effected their own comics appealed to me.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Sept 12, 2016 6:48:30 GMT -5
As far as Secret Wars goes, I tried to read it a few years ago and gave up. I get what it was trying to do, but at the time I lost my patience with it. I think I've become biased against it because I see it as the point where mainstream comics went down the wrong path with the crossover/event. Marvel and DC can spin it all they like, but these "stories" start as marketing schemes to get people to buy things they wouldn't otherwise. It's also admitting defeat. The Big Two no longer feel confident that they can maintain sales numbers over an extended period while simply letting each creative team tell their own individual stories. The event is the lazy, easy way out. I simply won't buy them. Infinity Gauntlet and Crisis are about the only ones I feel served an actual purpose beyond simply moving product.
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Post by tingramretro on Sept 12, 2016 8:37:10 GMT -5
I know I'm probably in the minority, but while I do think there are too many crossovers these days, I've still tended to like more than I've disliked, particularly back in the eighties and nineties. Secret Wars, Secret Wars II, Crisis, Millennium, Legends, Invasion, Total Eclipse, The Evolutionary War, The Janus Directive, Zero Hour, Acts of Vengeance, I thoroughly enjoyed all of them. I even enjoyed the first Civil War, for the most part, as well as the recent Avengers: Pleasant Hill crossover. They may be obvious attempts at grabbing our cash, but so long as they're fun, I have no problem with that.
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Post by dupersuper on Sept 13, 2016 8:48:07 GMT -5
As I'm working my way through my reviews of Justice League in the Post-Crisis Era, I'm realizing I'll have to start reading Invasion soon. I expect it to be nearly as painful an endeavor as Millennium and Legends before it. Relax: Invasion was much better.
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Post by dupersuper on Sept 13, 2016 8:51:52 GMT -5
2. Armageddon 2001. Go ahead, laugh. Even with the screwed up last minute change at the end, this was a compelling premise, and getting to read Dystopian future adventures of our favorite DC heroes was a ton of fun. 3. Infinite Crisis. Let me explain. The main series was pretty unimpressive, but the three limited series that were released alongside it (OMAC Project, Rann/Thanagar War, and Day of Judgment) ranged from pretty good to outright fantastic. And don't forget Countdown to Crisis either. It was a fun event with a high entertainment component, even while many of the decisions made for that event were questionable at best. 2. Agreed. My fellow comic reading buddy and I loved this at the time. 3. I agree the lead up was great, as much as the series fell apart. Don't forget the 4th tie-in mini that featured DCs villains fighting the Secret Six.
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Post by dupersuper on Sept 13, 2016 9:02:44 GMT -5
TOP 4: 1 DC 1,000,000 2 Crisis 3 Armageddon 2001 4 Invasion I also have soft spots for Annihilation, Secret Wars I, II, and modern, Infinity Gauntlet, Final Night, Zero Hour, Eclipso The Darkness Within, War of the Gods, Imperiex War, Contest of Champions, Infinity and of course the Death/Funeral/Reign/Return of Superman. I wish I could add Final Crisis, but I was more impressed with the Superman Beyond and Legion of 3 Worlds tie-ins.
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Post by dupersuper on Sept 13, 2016 9:07:38 GMT -5
I rate these as good- Identity Crisis I forgive you. Actually, to be fair, I rate it as mostly a good mystery, but Sues rape and murder (I realize there'd be no murder mystery without the latter, but I like Sue), Jean having brought a flamethrower with her "just in case" and - of course - the absurd Deathstroke fight, really ruin it for me. Ralph unable to get through the funeral still hits me though.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,873
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Post by shaxper on Sept 13, 2016 9:56:03 GMT -5
I rate these as good- Identity Crisis I forgive you. Actually, to be fair, I rate it as mostly a good mystery, but Sues rape and murder (I realize there'd be no murder mystery without the latter, but I like Sue), Jean having brought a flamethrower with her "just in case" and - of course - the absurd Deathstroke fight, really ruin it for me. Ralph unable to get through the funeral still hits me though. Yeah, Identity Crisis is solid as a self-contained story. It's the drastic revisions it makes to characters and legacies that were upsetting.
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Post by dupersuper on Sept 13, 2016 10:28:09 GMT -5
I forgive you. Actually, to be fair, I rate it as mostly a good mystery, but Sues rape and murder (I realize there'd be no murder mystery without the latter, but I like Sue), Jean having brought a flamethrower with her "just in case" and - of course - the absurd Deathstroke fight, really ruin it for me. Ralph unable to get through the funeral still hits me though. Yeah, Identity Crisis is solid as a self-contained story. It's the drastic revisions it makes to characters and legacies that were upsetting. ...and the absurd Deathstroke fight
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