|
Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2014 23:59:39 GMT -5
True, but that's a result of art being controlled by investors looking to profit. There's always going to be some market study that dictates what the art will be, until it's hardly art anymore. I don't think it's a result of self censorship, or even a true example of it, because studios are free to make R movies, and often do. They just do it in certain genres where the market study says it will net them more profits. I think some studios would purposefully go for an R rating in certain genres. Action/Drama. Horror. There's a handful of PG13 horror movies, but since so many horror fans think nothing with a PG13 is true horror, I can see a studio demanding the R rating. Throw some boobs in there, we need that R!
Of course comics have always been free to do what they wanted too, just not if they wanted to actually get distributed. The fact that just about every theater in the nation is willing to screen an R movie shows that the limit of censorship is a bit higher than that. There's probably theaters that won't show NC-17 movies. And I'm sure most won't show X rated movies anymore. But with the advent of home entertainment, the theater is no longer the monopoly for movies either. In the 1960's having a home video player and copies of actual Hollywood movies seems like it may have been a very niche hobby.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2014 1:00:35 GMT -5
True, but that's a result of art being controlled by investors looking to profit. There's always going to be some market study that dictates what the art will be, until it's hardly art anymore. If people investing in the product or the artist make something not art anymore, then you have to remove the works of Leonardo, Michalangelo and most of the Renaissance and early modern masters from the rank of art, as well as many of the nameless artists of the medieval period. People have almost always invested in art to shape it to their tastes, asking for certain subjects, requesting changes, rejecting initial studies of the artists, etc. etc. I often find those who try to separate art from non-art based on the criteria that someone else paid for it are willfully ignoring the history of art and how it developed. The idea of the starving artist and the true artist staying true to his vision rather than accepting payment or patronage is pretty much a 20th century invention to make a hero of the artist, much the way Washington Irving created hero myths for Washington, Columbus and others in the 18th century. It has little basis in fact but it is the most often repeated and believed ideal about the subjects in question. Unless it is ceremonial or ritualistic art (such as the cave painting and monumental temple art of antiquity), societies did not produce "art" without it being funded by some outside source until societies developed technologically enough for the basic needs of the entire society to be met. Otherwise, everyone in the society was engaged in meeting those needs of survival at some level as their primary task and not pursuing "art for art's sake." The myth of art is so much more romantic and appealing than the reality of art, but in the end it's just another illusion created by artists and those who revere them. ___ Art, such as we see it today, is part of an advanced society, and even advanced societies will have their taboos and mores. Sometimes art can challenge those (when a society is at its most progressive) and other times art cannot without severe consequences to the artist (when advanced societies are at their most restrictive and conservative). It varies depending on circumstances and locale, but guidelines such as rating codes are not something new artists have had to deal with in the 20th and 21st centuries, and not even the first time it has been codified by some agency of the society. Art however is one of the things that both shapes the society and is shaped by it. Many times it is a crooked or cracked mirror of the society that produces it, and seeing that reflection in the cracked mirror can be a revelation for society that inspires or affects change. Many times things are depicted in art before society is ready to talk about it in a real meaningful way, and it is a precursor to those discussions because it begins the process of acclimatizing a society to difficult subjects. The topic broached in the OP is one of those topics that a lot of people don't like to talk about. It makes people uncomfortable, and seeing it depicted makes people uncomfortable. That discomfort is a bar to the discussions needed to address and process the topic. Art is often the test case and the the gauge as to whether a society is ready to deal with something. If the art gets a backlash, society is not ready to deal with it. Addressing issues of sexual assault, objectifying people and/or sexualizing them, victim blaming etc. is something a lot of people are not ready to see in the crooked mirror of art because it is a reflection part of reality they are not ready to deal with yet. Often times codes, ratings, labels, censorship, and other reactions are societies way of trying to stave off those discussions of uncomfortable topics or ease the process of acclimatizing to them. In many ways, it's the same reaction to the process I sued to see at family gatherings all the time when something uncomfortable came up in discussion, certain words were "whispered" to make them easier to ignore or deal with until people were ready to talk about the (things like divorce in the early 70s, substance abuse/addiction, abortion, etc.) Once it was whispered, you couldn't take it back but watching how people reacted to it was fascinating. Once something is depicted in art, you can't take it back (though some try really hard to make it so), and watching how people then react to it is fascinating. Ideas seep into the public consciousness and become more approachable through art, but the process is painful. Looking at moments in history/art history-dealing with the events of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the presence of the bomb informed a lot of art throughout the 40s-70s, but it was uncomfortable at first, the Civil Rights movement, the reactions to AIDS in the 80s and 90s, reactions to homosexuality, etc. etc. are all issues that informed art and that art helped to transition into the conversations of mainstream society. Victimization and sexual assault however, have taken much longer, and have received a lot more backlash than some of the others, and several attempts over the years where art has attempted to effect the transition have been rebuffed. Western society is much more comfortable discussing and depicting violence than sex, but when those two things become co-mingled, all bets are off and those uncomfortable with either seem to unite in rebuffing that particular topic on so many levels. Ratings are just labels that allow us to name and quantify something to make it safer in the minds of folks who are uncomfortable with it, as people grow more comfortable, the standards on the ratings relax. However, there are some topics that seem to remain lines in the sand, and no label, no art, and no amount of effort seem to be able to breach that discomfort and allow the needed conversations to occur. And when those things start to make people uncomfortable, the reaction by some is to push back those standards on the labels and ratings. It's often a pendulum, and it seems right mow on some levels we are in the pushback mode as a society on several of these issues after a couple of decades of relaxing the standards. How long it will last is unclear, but there seems to be a significant minority (majority? hard to tell) pushing back on the pushback itself. But looking at money and investment as the cause for these changes in content is a smokescreen. It's who is using the money to push one direction or the other that is the key to it, as money can be mode on both sides of the divide on these issues. -M
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2014 18:04:16 GMT -5
I'd consider it commercial art. Do you really think Leonardo felt like painting the Virgin Mary all day every day? He was talented in his technique, but I don't quite consider it the same as say Mark Ryden, who paints whatever he wants.
I also wouldn't compare the Mona Lisa to the Transformers movie.
See, pushing back on labels and ratings has essentially zero effect on film right now, because all ratings of film are shown in theaters and released on video.
In other forms of media it could have an effect, but in film it really doesn't.
But there are types of popular opinion imposed censorship that have nothing to do with ratings or taboos. For example, the trouble the movie Creation had finding a US distributor. When an entire nation refuses to distribute something, the rating doesn't really matter.
|
|
|
Post by gothos on Aug 18, 2014 15:55:16 GMT -5
Dupont, you're mixing up your arguments. It's fine to say that the Mona Lisa is a more meritorious work than a Transformers movie; you're not likely to get any arguments on that. But if, as the consensus seems to be, the Mona Lisa was a commissioned work by some wealthy patron, then it's "commercial work" as much any Michael Bay movie.
It's *possible* for all ratings of a given film to be shown on video, though it's a lot less likely for the more transgressive versions to show up in theaters. That's the whole point of pre-censorship, in which directors have to tinker with their films to get the coveted PG-13 or less. However, I have my doubts that every version of any old film gets released to video. It's probably only in those cases that there's some ballyhoo that can be drummed up for a film's alternative R or NC-17 version; otherwise, it wouldn't be profitable. I used to see video stores carry two versions of a work, but now they're nearly dead. How often do people here see two versions of a film available on streaming video?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 20:35:19 GMT -5
Dupont, you're mixing up your arguments. It's fine to say that the Mona Lisa is a more meritorious work than a Transformers movie; you're not likely to get any arguments on that. But if, as the consensus seems to be, the Mona Lisa was a commissioned work by some wealthy patron, then it's "commercial work" as much any Michael Bay movie. That was a separate point. I was saying investors destroy art in film. Transformers is a prime example. Of course Pulp Fiction had investors too, but that's more of a "Here's some money, do what you do best" kind of investment, and not a product built completely on market research and corporate synergy. So that's why I wouldn't compare a commissioned painting or sculpture by some of the greatest artists to have ever lived to a movie that was slapped together with profits in mind. That's the real difference. The Catholic Church likely never planned on profiting from the work they commissioned. They just happened to employ the finest artists of the time because they had unlimited wealth and it wasn't considered poor taste for a religious institution to spend several fortunes acquiring art. Possibly because if they didn't pay for it, not many people would have. And those who likely would have probably wouldn't have displayed it for the masses.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 20:50:48 GMT -5
Dupont, you're mixing up your arguments. It's fine to say that the Mona Lisa is a more meritorious work than a Transformers movie; you're not likely to get any arguments on that. But if, as the consensus seems to be, the Mona Lisa was a commissioned work by some wealthy patron, then it's "commercial work" as much any Michael Bay movie. That was a separate point. I was saying investors destroy art in film. Transformers is a prime example. Of course Pulp Fiction had investors too, but that's more of a "Here's some money, do what you do best" kind of investment, and not a product built completely on market research and corporate synergy. So that's why I wouldn't compare a commissioned painting or sculpture by some of the greatest artists to have ever lived to a movie that was slapped together with profits in mind. That's the real difference. The Catholic Church likely never planned on profiting from the work they commissioned. They just happened to employ the finest artists of the time because they had unlimited wealth and it wasn't considered poor taste for a religious institution to spend several fortunes acquiring art. Possibly because if they didn't pay for it, not many people would have. And those who likely would have probably wouldn't have displayed it for the masses. Of course the Church hoped to profit from the art they invested in, not monetarily, but in growth of influence and prestige in the minds of the people to establish themselves as the supreme authority and only institution that mattered. The Church rejected pieces and forced artists to conform as much if not more than Hollywood investors do in movies like Transformers. If you make a movie that bombs, you don't get investments again, you make a piece that disappoints the Church or doesn't conform to their content standards you face excommunication or worse-imprisonment or death. Livelihood or life itself-which is the bigger incentive to do what the person/institution that patronizes you wants done? -M
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2014 0:18:48 GMT -5
Well, that's different. I think that's why the work is of a great quality. If they were trying to churn out as many images of Mary as they could to sell to someone else for more money than they paid we likely wouldn't be seeing them painted by masters.
As far as the church being offended at a lack of quality, I'm having a hard time confirming this. I know of the great famous paintings of the Renaissance, well, I know a bit. I'm certainly no expert. But anyway, I know OF them. Seen plenty in art books here and there. But the church spanned most of the known world at the time, didn't they? Certainly not all images of Mary were of the same quality. I just Googled "Renaissance painting" and while not all are as great as the best known pieces, none are looking bad. Were there churches adorned with low quality art at the time?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2014 0:51:13 GMT -5
By far and away most churches had low quality or no art because they were no members of the clergy who belonged to important families Of course there is no record of them, because most of the parishioners (and clergy) were illiterate. They didn't need to sell art, they were making a fortune selling indulgences (and likely holy relics at pilgrimage sites as well) anyways. The Church was a business. The Templars (which were an arm of the Church until they weren't) were the first multinational. The Knights of St. John and the Teutonic Knights employed similar practices on the Templar model though not to that extent. The Church took landgrants from nobility all the time as payment for securing positions for younger sons and daughters of noble land-holding families. Monasteries were production factories (breweries were common-there's a reason there is a tradition of Belgian Trappist ales), but nearly all monasteries produced some kind of product as a cottage industry-honey, wine, jams, manuscripts, etc. etc. which the Church then sold at market or provided to noble families for a price if their own manors were not productive enough or did not produce those types of goods. They even used Church policy to influence markets (many important Cardinals/Bishops came form families with interest in the fish trade, which was doing very poorly at the time the Church instituted the idea of giving up meat on Fridays but allowing fish to be consumed without sin). The Church also mass produced art for use in the instruction of the flock (people were illiterate, so you used imagery to teach-everything from Stations of the Cross to Stained Glass Windows to Passion Plays). In most places, they were not so much concerned with the quality of the art but the content. Did is properly depict the interpretations they wanted of Biblical passages? Did it paint Mother Church in the proper light? Did it do anything to support doctrinal misinterpretations they were trying to stamp out (i.e. heresies)? Did it put the proper fear of God (and thus the Church) into people? Did it put the fear of damnation (with the Church being the only source of salvation)? What happened to work that did not meet these standards and why was there no record of it? It was most likely suppressed (or burnt along with the offending artists and/or craftsmen). The Gothis Cathedrals were the apex of this int he medieval period and the Papal patronage of the Renaissance masters followed that. Art was serious business for the Church. And once you reach the Renaissance, when the popes, Cardinals, and other church dignitaries were members of the leading families of Europe who were rivals, money was spent seriously on art to outdo the the others in terms of influence and monumental records via art. It was a competition to outdo each other. No substandard art was going to be allowed in the key places (St. Peter's, Rome in general, the Cathedrals in key centers of power and trade, the most important abbeys, Holy sites, etc. even though the rank and file parishes, especially rural ones, would have seen none of that extravagance or expenditure. Sure there was low quality art produced-that was for general consumption in out of the way places. But the good stuff that we see and that has survived into the historical record and thus colored or cultural memory of what religious art was-that was located in urban centers and key locations under the auspices of the leading families and their positions within the Church. Those families were every bit as meddlesome as any Hollywood investor in movies today. It wasn't just profits at stake for them (and there was a lot of profit at stake to be sure), but also the prestige and standing of their family, whether it be Medici, Borgia or some other leading light of Europe. -M
|
|