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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 5, 2017 15:01:14 GMT -5
See, I'm the other way; DC's Elseworld stories seem way better than any of the Marvel What If.. stories. I think stories like Batman as a vampire, Batman as a hero in the late Victorian age, Batman in the 1920's, Batman teaming up with Edgar Allen Poe, Batman as Dr. Frankenstein, Superman as a son of the Soviet Union, Superman as a kid in the real world, and Superman through the eyes of Fritz Lang are way better than stories like What if Spider-man was a pig, What if Spider-Man joined the F4, What if Uncle Ben had lived, What if Aunt May died, What if the Hulk had Banner's Brain or What if Wolverine was a vampire. About the only imaginary stories that Marvel has put out that even come close to the DC ones in my mind were the "The End" stories, especially the Hulk one and the Marvel Noir line. I don't know, guardian... "What if Dr. Doom was a hero", "What if Dr. Strange was a disciple of Dormammu", "What if Elektra had lived", "What if Thor met Conan" were pretty awesome stories. Their greatest appeal is that they were not just alternative tales, but were sticking to the What if..? concept; the characters featured therein, as well as their world, are all the ones we are familiar with. That means Dr. Doom does not just act out of character and be heroic for the sake of a cool story; it is our Dr. Doom, the same arrogant and self-centered fellow we know, who due to a slight change in his history didn't become a super-villain. Since his character stays the same, the development of his heroic career (and his ultimate fate) goes pretty much the way we would have expected, allowing us to see him as the flawed individual he is -with an added layer of tragedy. That's why I find the concept so intriguing, and what What if..? different from an Elseworlds story (although these can be just as much fun, naturally). I remember a letter commenting on "What if Phoenix had not died": the reader complained that Sentinels had no business in that story, because Sentinels were not active around the time Jean Grey died... and he was right! A proper "What if..?" story does not incorporate multiple fanciful concepts: it has to proceed logically from just one small event that went a different way. The butterfly effect may of course be invoked, (as with the sequel to "What if Spider-man had joined the FF", which led to Sue Storm marrying Namor) but it all has to proceed logically. It is a great exercise for a writer, and some of the best What if..? tales are brilliant precisely because they stick to the continuity we know. They sometimes make the "real" story more poignant (as when we learn how Matt Murdoch and Elektra would have ended together had she not been killed by Bullseye) and sometimes make it more acceptable (as when we learn that had Jean Grey not died, the Phoenix would have destroyed the Earth). Naturally, even when sticking to the core concept, you need good ideas. There are many What if..? issues that I find to be sub-par, especially in volume 2. But volume 1 is excellent almost throughout! There were certainly gems, like the Doom story you mentioned, but for me most didn't come off as special enough, or divergent enough, or emotionally powerful enough to warrant anything more than a cursory glance or a one shot. For an imaginary story to be fully successful in my mind it has to come off as being just as or even more compelling than the original. When the story is done I want to feel momentarily bereft that it isn't an on going, I want a book that contains a whole new world that I want to visit again and again and while there are some books put out by Marvel that have made me feel that way there are many, many more by DC that have. I mean, just as an example, if I had my hearts desire there would currently be Gotham by Gaslight #312 on the racks right now because it never would have stopped at just a mini series but would have become a full fledged on going that was beautiful in its own right and there are dozens of other Elseworlds that have that same unique feel that really resonate on their own. While on the other hand, yes a story of Spider-Man joining the FF is fun and it can tell us a lot about Peter as a character and the weight of the decisions he actually made that we take fr granted as readers it wouldn't be powerful month after month...it would just be the FF with Spider-Man and I don't think that's enough to make that alternate world really worth it. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 5, 2017 15:03:18 GMT -5
I don't know, guardian... "What if Dr. Doom was a hero", "What if Dr. Strange was a disciple of Dormammu", "What if Elektra had lived", "What if Thor met Conan" were pretty awesome stories. Their greatest appeal is that they were not just alternative tales, but were sticking to the What if..? concept; the characters featured therein, as well as their world, are all the ones we are familiar with. That means Dr. Doom does not just act out of character and be heroic for the sake of a cool story; it is our Dr. Doom, the same arrogant and self-centered fellow we know, who due to a slight change in his history didn't become a super-villain. Since his character stays the same, the development of his heroic career (and his ultimate fate) goes pretty much the way we would have expected, allowing us to see him as the flawed individual he is -with an added layer of tragedy. That's why I find the concept so intriguing, and what What if..? different from an Elseworlds story (although these can be just as much fun, naturally). I remember a letter commenting on "What if Phoenix had not died": the reader complained that Sentinels had no business in that story, because Sentinels were not active around the time Jean Grey died... and he was right! A proper "What if..?" story does not incorporate multiple fanciful concepts: it has to proceed logically from just one small event that went a different way. The butterfly effect may of course be invoked, (as with the sequel to "What if Spider-man had joined the FF", which led to Sue Storm marrying Namor) but it all has to proceed logically. It is a great exercise for a writer, and some of the best What if..? tales are brilliant precisely because they stick to the continuity we know. They sometimes make the "real" story more poignant (as when we learn how Matt Murdoch and Elektra would have ended together had she not been killed by Bullseye) and sometimes make it more acceptable (as when we learn that had Jean Grey not died, the Phoenix would have destroyed the Earth). Naturally, even when sticking to the core concept, you need good ideas. There are many What if..? issues that I find to be sub-par, especially in volume 2. But volume 1 is excellent almost throughout! I mean, if I had my hearts desire there would currently be Gotham by Gaslight #312 on the racks right now I'd be great with this with the right creative team. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jan 5, 2017 16:41:47 GMT -5
I don't know, guardian... "What if Dr. Doom was a hero", "What if Dr. Strange was a disciple of Dormammu", "What if Elektra had lived", "What if Thor met Conan" were pretty awesome stories. Their greatest appeal is that they were not just alternative tales, but were sticking to the What if..? concept; the characters featured therein, as well as their world, are all the ones we are familiar with. That means Dr. Doom does not just act out of character and be heroic for the sake of a cool story; it is our Dr. Doom, the same arrogant and self-centered fellow we know, who due to a slight change in his history didn't become a super-villain. Since his character stays the same, the development of his heroic career (and his ultimate fate) goes pretty much the way we would have expected, allowing us to see him as the flawed individual he is -with an added layer of tragedy. That's why I find the concept so intriguing, and what What if..? different from an Elseworlds story (although these can be just as much fun, naturally). I remember a letter commenting on "What if Phoenix had not died": the reader complained that Sentinels had no business in that story, because Sentinels were not active around the time Jean Grey died... and he was right! A proper "What if..?" story does not incorporate multiple fanciful concepts: it has to proceed logically from just one small event that went a different way. The butterfly effect may of course be invoked, (as with the sequel to "What if Spider-man had joined the FF", which led to Sue Storm marrying Namor) but it all has to proceed logically. It is a great exercise for a writer, and some of the best What if..? tales are brilliant precisely because they stick to the continuity we know. They sometimes make the "real" story more poignant (as when we learn how Matt Murdoch and Elektra would have ended together had she not been killed by Bullseye) and sometimes make it more acceptable (as when we learn that had Jean Grey not died, the Phoenix would have destroyed the Earth). Naturally, even when sticking to the core concept, you need good ideas. There are many What if..? issues that I find to be sub-par, especially in volume 2. But volume 1 is excellent almost throughout! There were certainly gems, like the Doom story you mentioned, but for me most didn't come off as special enough, or divergent enough, or emotionally powerful enough to warrant anything more than a cursory glance or a one shot. For an imaginary story to be fully successful in my mind it has to come off as being just as or even more compelling than the original. When the story is done I want to feel momentarily bereft that it isn't an on going, I want a book that contains a whole new world that I want to visit again and again and while there are some books put out by Marvel that have made me feel that way there are many, many more by DC that have. I mean, just as an example, if I had my hearts desire there would currently be Gotham by Gaslight #312 on the racks right now because it never would have stopped at just a mini series but would have become a full fledged on going that was beautiful in its own right and there are dozens of other Elseworlds that have that same unique feel that really resonate on their own. While on the other hand, yes a story of Spider-Man joining the FF is fun and it can tell us a lot about Peter as a character and the weight of the decisions he actually made that we take fr granted as readers it wouldn't be powerful month after month...it would just be the FF with Spider-Man and I don't think that's enough to make that alternate world really worth it. I see what you mean, but personally I really like the concept of the "What if..?" story that sticks to what we know. I view it as a different type of imaginary story, quite distinct from completely out-of-continuity ones like the brilliant Gotham by Gaslight you mention, or other gems like the Batman/Tarzan crossover. (Another Elseworlds story I really liked was Holy Terror... The world it depicted was really rich in story potential). As you say, Spider-Man in the FF is not all that interesting a basis for a new series. But in What if..? the interesting thing was that writers were allowed to use established characters and situations without worrying about the future, opening up a lot of possibilities. Characters died very often, which was a big deal once... but mostly, plots were allowed to go through their logical end. I mean, of course Dark Phoenix left on Earth was bound to burn it to a crisp... but we can't do that in the regular X-Men book, because we have to put out an issue next month! So I view What if..?, rather than as a purely "imaginary tale", as a sort of extension of the regular Marvel universe. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 5, 2017 16:59:24 GMT -5
There were certainly gems, like the Doom story you mentioned, but for me most didn't come off as special enough, or divergent enough, or emotionally powerful enough to warrant anything more than a cursory glance or a one shot. For an imaginary story to be fully successful in my mind it has to come off as being just as or even more compelling than the original. When the story is done I want to feel momentarily bereft that it isn't an on going, I want a book that contains a whole new world that I want to visit again and again and while there are some books put out by Marvel that have made me feel that way there are many, many more by DC that have. I mean, just as an example, if I had my hearts desire there would currently be Gotham by Gaslight #312 on the racks right now because it never would have stopped at just a mini series but would have become a full fledged on going that was beautiful in its own right and there are dozens of other Elseworlds that have that same unique feel that really resonate on their own. While on the other hand, yes a story of Spider-Man joining the FF is fun and it can tell us a lot about Peter as a character and the weight of the decisions he actually made that we take fr granted as readers it wouldn't be powerful month after month...it would just be the FF with Spider-Man and I don't think that's enough to make that alternate world really worth it. I see what you mean, but personally I really like the concept of the "What if..?" story that sticks to what we know. I view it as a different type of imaginary story, quite distinct from completely out-of-continuity ones like the brilliant Gotham by Gaslight you mention, or other gems like the Batman/Tarzan crossover. (Another Elseworlds story I really liked was Holy Terror... The world it depicted was really rich in story potential). As you say, Spider-Man in the FF is not all that interesting a basis for a new series. But in What if..? the interesting thing was that writers were allowed to use established characters and situations without worrying about the future, opening up a lot of possibilities. Characters died very often, which was a big deal once... but mostly, plots were allowed to go through their logical end. I mean, of course Dark Phoenix left on Earth was bound to burn it to a crisp... but we can't do that in the regular X-Men book, because we have to put out an issue next month! So I view What if..?, rather than as a purely "imaginary tale", as a sort of extension of the regular Marvel universe. There's something to be said for that take, but it just doesn't appeal to me personally. I think it is that plausibility factor that does make them seem less creative and less special to me; as you said Gene burning down the world is something that seems like a totally logical conclusion when reading the Phoenix saga and when you finish it you know, just as you said, the only reason why it didn't end that way is because then the narrative is over and that goes against the nature of the medium. Sure it's nice to get that kind of ending, but it flows pretty much just how you imagined so it doesn't really give you that truly wow experience. On the other hand the Elseworld stories can be truly surprising, offering you things you never would have imagined( like Superman as the Frankenstein monster!) and engrossing you in worlds that never could have actually sprung up in the monthly titles. There are a lot of turkeys in the Elseworlds stories to be sure but I think there are far more examples from that bunch that I'd include on a list of best comics than there would be from What If... |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jan 5, 2017 17:11:20 GMT -5
There's something to be said for that take, but it just doesn't appeal to me personally. I think it is that plausibility factor that does make them seem less creative and less special to me; as you said Gene burning down the world is something that seems like a totally logical conclusion when reading the Phoenix saga and when you finish it you know, just as you said, the only reason why it didn't end that way is because then the narrative is over and that goes against the nature of the medium. Sure it's nice to get that kind of ending, but it flows pretty much just how you imagined so it doesn't really give you that truly wow experience. That is quite true. On the other hand, the more down-to-earth (so to speak) aspect of What if..? makes me more attached to the characters involved. Sure, it's far more awesome to read about Batman facing Jack the ripper in the XIX century than to see Reed mope because Sue is marrying Namor, but the Batman in Gotham by gaslight isn't someone I know; he's "a" Bruce Wayne, an imaginary one... The Reed in that What if..? story is the "real" one, albeit one living in a universe where a small decision was taken instead of another. I's lacking in the wow factor, but has a deeper sense of "there but for the grace of God go I". Not that I view What if..? stories as intrinsically better than any other imaginary story, mind you. I'm just a customer with whom the concept resonated. |
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Post by coinilius on Jan 5, 2017 20:27:17 GMT -5
In regards to What If...? Vs Elseworlds - I tend to see them as very different concepts, as usually Elseworlds deal more with taking a concept and placing it into a completely different setting, while What If stories usually spiral out of a specific issue or event in a comic, then exploring the consequences of this change.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jan 5, 2017 21:29:31 GMT -5
In regards to What If...? Vs Elseworlds - I tend to see them as very different concepts, as usually Elseworlds deal more with taking a concept and placing it into a completely different setting, while What If stories usually spiral out of a specific issue or event in a comic, then exploring the consequences of this change. That's exactly right. Neil Gaiman's 1602, for example, isn't a What if story but could be seen as a Marvel Elseworlds. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 5, 2017 23:13:12 GMT -5
The What If? had a more finite feel. It was usually a complete done in one story. The Elseworld's always felt like they were hedging into sequels.
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Post by berkley on Jan 6, 2017 0:50:11 GMT -5
One idea I think would be interesting is What If ... all the Marvel comics we read were distorted propaganda versions of the truth, produced by the powers-that-be in order to paint dissidents as villains, murderers, common criminals, etc, when they were actually genuine political activists trying to change the world for the better?
Needs a catchier title, though.
Actually, now I think of it, this is so obvious, maybe something similar has already been done, though not as a What If.
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Jan 6, 2017 21:44:55 GMT -5
The What If? had a more finite feel. It was usually a complete done in one story. The Elseworld's always felt like they were hedging into sequels. Interesting point. I have only read Gotham by Gaslight, which I believe falls under the Elseworlds. To me, it left me wanting more. I felt like it was trying to set up a bigger story but ended up rushing it. Marvel tends to finish the story nicely and while some of the stories are silly, quite a few are actually very interesting.
A couple of my personal What Ifs that I would like to see...
What if the Avengers had an all female lineup? If they did, what would it be?
What if Spider-Man never met Curt Connors? They help each other a lot and I feel one without the other would mean disaster.
What If Captain Stacy had exposed Spider-Man?
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 6, 2017 21:55:33 GMT -5
It's funny as I read some of these, I feel like some of them have been sorta done in modern 'real' comics?
Here's a couple of mine:
What if Tony Stark never recovered from Alcoholism?
What if Magik permanently became the Darkchylde?
What if Magneto's Genosha conquered the United States?
What if the Thing turned evil when Reed couldn't cure him?
What if Strong Guy used the Legions of Hell to attack Thanos during Infinity?
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Jan 6, 2017 22:08:13 GMT -5
I like that first one. Has anyone every done a story where they take a fairly well known hero and that hero self destructs as result of addiction? That would have been a pretty epic moment if Stark because so addicted that he hurt someone while intoxicated and fighting.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2017 9:49:32 GMT -5
I like that first one. Has anyone every done a story where they take a fairly well known hero and that hero self destructs as result of addiction? That would have been a pretty epic moment if Stark because so addicted that he hurt someone while intoxicated and fighting. Sounds like something Mark Millar would write. |
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Post by MWGallaher on Jan 7, 2017 18:03:24 GMT -5
Back when it was being published, the one I remember imagining was "What If the Hulk Had Stayed in the Avengers?" The Space Phantom impersonates Giant-Man instead of the Hulk in Avengers #2, leaving Hank Pym a fugitive, adopting his Yellowjacket identity as he tries to prove his innocence by tracking down the alien shape-shifter that ruined his reputation. Meanwhile, the history of the Avengers is very different with the volatile Hulk on board, with Thor and Iron Man bailing on the team when Wanda and Pietro join...
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Jan 11, 2017 22:35:55 GMT -5
What If Steranko had done a Spider-Man issue?
I know the cover of History of Steranko features a Spidey image and I am not sure if he did Spidey in an issue of Foom or not. But imagine he did a run in ASM? Magical!
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