|
|
Post by badwolf on Mar 13, 2017 16:50:43 GMT -5
I liked Grant Morrison's take on Plas in JLA.
I can't really think of a character that only one creator's been able to make "work."
|
|
|
|
Post by Ish Kabbible on Mar 13, 2017 16:59:17 GMT -5
There really is no such thing as a great character, only great writers, or at least a writer who came up with a great idea.But it always begins with the writer.
A bad writer can ruin any character. A great writer can make any character interesting
It's all about the writing
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,874
|
Post by shaxper on Mar 13, 2017 17:04:51 GMT -5
There really is no such thing as a great character, only great writers, or at least a writer who came up with a great idea.But it always begins with the writer. A bad writer can ruin any character. A great writer can make any character interesting It's all about the writing Normally I agree, but there are exceptions. I'm reading Atari Force right now, and it's Garcia Lopez making me love the characters, not Conway. John Bolton made me love Marada the She Wolf when Claremont hadn't quite found her character yet. J.H. Williams III characterized Batwoman far more than Greg Rucka did. Perez was just as instrumental as Wolfman in making me love the New Teen Titans, and when Doug Moench couldn't sell me on Nocturna, Colan, Newton, and Alcala did. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2017 17:23:15 GMT -5
There really is no such thing as a great character, only great writers, or at least a writer who came up with a great idea.But it always begins with the writer. A bad writer can ruin any character. A great writer can make any character interesting It's all about the writing Some characters are easier to write than others. They are the ones that are still around. Why did Capt America enjoy more success than Sub-Mariner over the last several decades? |
|
|
|
Post by Ish Kabbible on Mar 13, 2017 17:34:24 GMT -5
There really is no such thing as a great character, only great writers, or at least a writer who came up with a great idea.But it always begins with the writer. A bad writer can ruin any character. A great writer can make any character interesting It's all about the writing Normally I agree, but there are exceptions. I'm reading Atari Force right now, and it's Garcia Lopez making me love the characters, not Conway. John Bolton made me love Marada the She Wolf when Claremont hadn't quite found her character yet. J.H. Williams III characterized Batwoman far more than Greg Rucka did. Perez was just as instrumental as Wolfman in making me love the New Teen Titans, and when Doug Moench couldn't sell me on Nocturna, Colan, Newton, and Alcala did. I get your point that occasionally the artwork brings the story level up several notches. Comics are a visual medium. So I'll rephrase my post and say "There really is no such thing as a great character, only great creators". Substitute writer with creator |
|
|
|
Post by Ish Kabbible on Mar 13, 2017 17:39:13 GMT -5
There really is no such thing as a great character, only great writers, or at least a writer who came up with a great idea.But it always begins with the writer. A bad writer can ruin any character. A great writer can make any character interesting It's all about the writing Some characters are easier to write than others. They are the ones that are still around. Why did Capt America enjoy more success than Sub-Mariner over the last several decades? I'd say that since Sub-Mariner is a more complex character, it takes a better writer for it to be consistently successful But there's been thousands of easy characters that bit the dust. The simple fact of them being easy does not make them survive. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2017 18:02:42 GMT -5
Some characters are easier to write than others. They are the ones that are still around. Why did Capt America enjoy more success than Sub-Mariner over the last several decades? I'd say that since Sub-Mariner is a more complex character, it takes a better writer for it to be consistently successful But there's been thousands of easy characters that bit the dust. The simple fact of them being easy does not make them survive. Then maybe it's the concept more than the character.
Would Batman been as successful stripped of the Batcave, Gordon, etc? Why was Capt America more popular than the Shield (Archie)?
Green Arrow & Batman were essentially the same characters in the 40's. Why did Batman succeed & Green Arrow didn't?
And is something like the Fantastic Four no longer relevant?
Superman grew in popularity as more elements were added to his titles.
Wish we could have this conversation in person!
|
|
|
|
Post by badwolf on Mar 13, 2017 18:06:04 GMT -5
Actually, now I think about it more, I think no one but Claremont or Byrne were able to do Alpha Flight properly.
But I still think they're great.
|
|
rossn
Full Member
Posts: 173
|
Post by rossn on Mar 13, 2017 22:01:04 GMT -5
I think part of the problem is, as already mentioned, a character can be so radically different under a different writer (and artist) as to be totally different characters with the same name - just look at the original Superman of the late 30's and compare him with the Silver Age Superman.
To take a non-comic example Daffy Duck has been under different writers a completely off the wall lunatic, a cunning trickster, a greedy coward with a chip on his shoulder, an out and out villain and a combination of all the preceeding. Fans of one interpretation are far from guaranteed to like another version, even if both are objectively good - they just appeal in different ways, potentially to different audiences.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2017 22:18:25 GMT -5
Well, couldn't someone publish Plastic Man as a separate book apart from the DCU ? They could, but then it wouldn't "matter" and shared universe fans, which are the bulk of DC's (and Marvel's) readers don't buy books that don't matter. DC is starting to experiment again with the Young Animals line with stuff like Doom Patrol and a few others, and I could see a Plastic Man book in that line if it keeps building an audience, but for all the critical acclaim and love the line is getting I haven't seen sales figures to show it is carving out enough of an audience to get legs because the typical DC reader either ignores it or can't afford it because he has to buy 8 biweekly Batbook and 4 biweekly Superman books and everything else in the line that "matters" to get the whole DCU story, or because the retailer has to stock all those biweekly books and has no money left in his budget to buy shelf copies of books like the Young Animal stuff and there aren't enough pulls to give it the kind of legs it needs to sustain itself and without shelf copies available there is zero room for growth because new readers can't get copies to try it. -M |
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Mar 13, 2017 22:28:57 GMT -5
Captain marvel has rarely worked because DC's writers couldn't seem to write whimsy. The Fawcett series reveled in being written for kids, with an anything goes fantasy world. DC never really seemed to want to take the gloves off. They basically produced light adventure with him, in the 70s, most of which could have featured any character. The Roy Thomas 80s version never really got going; but, was kind of mired in another serious approach. i liked Jerry ordway's take on it; but, it was stuck in the same superhero universe as the rest of DC and could never really cut loose.
The person I would have liked to have seen handle Captain marvel is Alan Moore, though more the Alan Moore of America's Best Comics.
Plastic Man had more to do with the brilliance and unique perspective of Jack Cole. Others have tried to mimic the style; but, no one has achieved the mindset, which is probably a good thing, given how Cole ended up. The closest anyone ever came, for my money, wasn't even Plas; it was E-Man, from Nicola Cuti and Joe Staton. Pasko and Staton's E-Man wasn't quite as good as Cuti and Staton and I suspect Cuti and Staton would have been better on Plas than Pasko and Staton.
|
|
|
|
Post by berkley on Mar 13, 2017 23:20:39 GMT -5
I think any of those fans who haven't seen it already might want to check out the Marvel Family issue in Grant Morrison's DC Multiverse miniseries from a year or two back, even if they don't normally like Morrison's stuff. I thought it was one of the best issues of an admittedly up and down series, even though I'm not a Marvel Family fan myself.
|
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Mar 14, 2017 6:01:12 GMT -5
Captain marvel has rarely worked because DC's writers couldn't seem to write whimsy. The Fawcett series reveled in being written for kids, with an anything goes fantasy world. DC never really seemed to want to take the gloves off. They basically produced light adventure with him, in the 70s, most of which could have featured any character. The Roy Thomas 80s version never really got going; but, was kind of mired in another serious approach. i liked Jerry ordway's take on it; but, it was stuck in the same superhero universe as the rest of DC and could never really cut loose. The person I would have liked to have seen handle Captain marvel is Alan Moore, though more the Alan Moore of America's Best Comics. Plastic Man had more to do with the brilliance and unique perspective of Jack Cole. Others have tried to mimic the style; but, no one has achieved the mindset, which is probably a good thing, given how Cole ended up. The closest anyone ever came, for my money, wasn't even Plas; it was E-Man, from Nicola Cuti and Joe Staton. Pasko and Staton's E-Man wasn't quite as good as Cuti and Staton and I suspect Cuti and Staton would have been better on Plas than Pasko and Staton. Did Cole commit suicide? |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2017 7:23:43 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by MDG on Mar 14, 2017 8:03:15 GMT -5
Before that, he started doing some pretty frikkin' amazing cartoons for Playboy.   |
|
