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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2017 22:48:55 GMT -5
It also led indirectly to the creation of the Thunderbolts, one of the real high points of the nineties for me. It also led to alot of great runs right after it... Busiek's Avengers for instance... Thor and Iron Man both improved greatly too, though I'm not sure exactly which runs came right after.. I think Quesada for Iron Man and maybe Jurgens for Thor? or Straczinski? The initial Heroes Return line ups were Avengers by Busiek & Perez, Iron Man by Busiek & Chen, Cap by Waid & Garney (their second stint on Cap), and FF by Claremont & Alan Davis. Thor did not have a solo book initially as part of Heroes Return, and didn't launch until 6 or 7 months later with Jurgens writing and art by Romita Jr. and Klaus Janson. The books were not so much a result of Onslaught but a response to the negative reaction the Image boys' efforts on Heroes Reborn got and an attempt to get back to basics with the characters. But they had been doing that on Cap already on the first Waid/Garney run that followed the nadir of the Gruenwald run and it was selling well (compared to the tail end of the Gruenwald run and the other Marvel Heroes, i.e. not Spidey or X-Men, books)and critically acclaimed and Marvel was blasted in the fan press for cancelling it in favor of the Liefled run as part of Heroes Reborn. They felt that if they brought back Waid and Garney to recapture that back to basics feel and ape that model onthe other 3 returning books they might be able to recapture the goodwill of their fanbase. It had nothing to do with Onslaught and its story or sales and everything to do with how poorly received Heroes Reborn was-to the point they had to bring in James Robinson as a hired gun to finish the Cap run and do final 13th issues for all the series to give them time to figure out the Heroes Return mini and get these four books back on track sales wise and reception wise. It took them longer to figure out what to do with Thor and to find a creative team that could work within the parameters of the back to basics paradigm they wanted, but still do something interesting-hence bringing back a mortal secret identity for Thor, (though a different one) and putting Romita Jr with his big blocky late-Kibryesque stylings on the book. I'm not sure how many folks here know there was a strong push to bring back Englehart on Avengers to work with Perez, including a very strongly backed fan petition, but Busiek got the gig eventually. But Marvel was a bit taken aback at how poorly received the Image boys were on their books and how strongly the fan base called for a retro feel on those 4 Marvel books. They could have done the same thing if they had had faith in the Cap revival by Waid and Garney and figured out what was making it work and resonate with their customer base and applied that philosophy to the core Marvel Heroes books, but instead they wanted to hype up an everything changes event, tie it in with the then sales Juggernaut X-franchise and try to pander sales to the Image fanboys by bringing back the Image boys, and it all blew up in their face in terms of sales and fan reception. The retro/classic feeling creative teams that helmed the Heroes Return books were their attempt at damage control after the PR nightmare Heroes Reborn turned into when sales tanked after the first few issues and some of the Image boys quit the books before the 12 issue runs were done. Onslaught had nothing ot do with those books coming about. -M |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2017 23:09:36 GMT -5
That last post would make a great article.
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 18, 2017 3:09:50 GMT -5
The only book from this era that I bought or read was Heroes Reborn: Masters of Evil. I liked the art and the writing seemed good, but I didn't really know what was going on. That's OK-neither did the writer... |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Mar 18, 2017 7:05:35 GMT -5
I guess it depends on your perspective... I look at it somewhat as a win for the fans over corporate stupidity. People voted with their dollars, and got good stuff afterwards.
I do definitely think it was the start of all the renumbering and restarting nonsense that now goes on. it worked pretty well then, after all. They trick was it worked because it was fixing a mistake, not because it was a re-boot, and it seems Marvel STILL doesn't get that.
I didn't know about the Englehart thing... I was really pulled into comic fandom then... just read my comic shop news every week and talked to the guy at the store... in fact, I probably didn't know who Englehart was back then.. I hadn't read anything before West Coast Avengers, and I never really liked the Mantis/Swordsman stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2017 13:22:42 GMT -5
I guess it depends on your perspective... I look at it somewhat as a win for the fans over corporate stupidity. People voted with their dollars, and got good stuff afterwards. I do definitely think it was the start of all the renumbering and restarting nonsense that now goes on. it worked pretty well then, after all. They trick was it worked because it was fixing a mistake, not because it was a re-boot, and it seems Marvel STILL doesn't get that. I didn't know about the Englehart thing... I was really pulled into comic fandom then... just read my comic shop news every week and talked to the guy at the store... in fact, I probably didn't know who Englehart was back then.. I hadn't read anything before West Coast Avengers, and I never really liked the Mantis/Swordsman stuff. The thing is, if Heroes Reborn had been a critical and commercial success, there never would have been a Heroes Return, it would have become the new norm for the Marvel Universe. The Image boys would have moved on after their 12 issue run, but the new paradigm they were setting up would have continued on. Heroes Return was not part of the plan going into Onslaught. And Marvel was doing the big event and renumbering of key titles bit because it had worked well for DC a decade earlier when they were facing a sales nadir, and Marvel's non-Spidey and X-book were facing a sales nadir in the early-mid 90s. Heroes Return wasn't them fixing a story mistake, it was a reaction to a marketing miscalculation and was as much as much a marketing strategy as Heroes Reborn had been, just one fans liked better. When sales started slumping again after initial excitement of Heroes Return, they started changing things up again with new marketing strategies (of which Disassembled was probably the poster child of for the Heroes books) until setting in on the event cycle soon after that. Heroes Return produced some great stories, but that was a stroke of luck in the marketing driven era of comics, it wasn't the goal of the push behind it (though it was of the creators involved), the push behind it was for sales, hype and buzz, just as every move made at Marvel, DC and a host of other comics publishers has been for the last 25-30 years (and probably longer if I am being honest, the marketing motivation just wasn't as out there and in your face as much previously or I was too young and naive to notice it or recognize it for what it was). -M |
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 18, 2017 13:30:34 GMT -5
I guess it depends on your perspective... I look at it somewhat as a win for the fans over corporate stupidity. People voted with their dollars, and got good stuff afterwards. I do definitely think it was the start of all the renumbering and restarting nonsense that now goes on. it worked pretty well then, after all. They trick was it worked because it was fixing a mistake, not because it was a re-boot, and it seems Marvel STILL doesn't get that. I didn't know about the Englehart thing... I was really pulled into comic fandom then... just read my comic shop news every week and talked to the guy at the store... in fact, I probably didn't know who Englehart was back then.. I hadn't read anything before West Coast Avengers, and I never really liked the Mantis/Swordsman stuff.But...but they were the best Avengers! |
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Post by String on Mar 18, 2017 16:50:30 GMT -5
I'd been a devout Marvel reader, especially of the X-titles so I was well aware of the coming Onslaught. The basic premise sounds like something that looked cool when written down on paper (Xavier tainted by Magneto's evil!) but lost something early in execution. But by the time of it's actual release, I had moved out of my home state, got a brand-new job, new living quarters, etc and was trying to adjust to my new-found freedom. Comics kinda went by the wayside. So I've never read all of the Onslaught event and thankfully, missed out on the Image takeover of Marvel titles (which sounded even more ludicrous than the premise of Onslaught).
By the time of Heroes Reborn, I was able to get back into comics and thus, discovered the new runs of classic Marvel books, all of which were very good (I think Jurgens-Romita Jr Thor gets overlooked and underappreciated sometimes). Thus, I wouldn't say that Onslaught killed classic Marvel; I think the titles that arose from those ashes carried the feel and respect of classic Marvel rather well.
No, for me personally, the death knell of classic Marvel was heralded by the later arrival of Brian Michael Bendis. He Dis-Assembled Marvel and it's never been the same since.
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