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Post by berkley on Mar 23, 2017 20:23:57 GMT -5
I don't hate the Korvac saga,it's entertaining enough, though it's annoying in the way it tries to outdo every other cosmic story without having a single original idea of its own to offer. I don't think David Wenzel's art is to blame: it was competent enough, it's just that without the extra-special Perez artwork, the reader starts noticing that the story isn't all that interesting. In contrast to, say, a Steven Englehart, who maintains the interest through all kinds of artwork, good, bad, and indifferent.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 23, 2017 21:06:50 GMT -5
It's a given that there were people that dislikes him. How about most of the fans? Most of the fans liked him and he has been nothing but polite to them. For every Meonch and David there are Sterns and Laphams that found him loyal. Then or after he was out of power? Because he was pilloried pretty heavily in the fan community during the latter stages of his tenure at Marvel (and over things like the Kirby art battle) and ripped to shreds during the Defiant launch and with Broadway Comics. Once he was out of the limelight for awhile, things seemed to calm down. He certainly has his defenders; but, I've read more interviews with detractors than defenders, across a wide variety of platforms. I don't know the guy. I like some of his writing, am indifferent to some, and find some downright offensive. Comics, like many creative endeavors, is an industry of egos, especially in the 80s and 90s, when creators were being treated like rock stars and even getting mainstream attention. I've read several accounts of him outside the office that do not create a flattering picture of a human being, though I have no idea of their veracity, since no sources were offered and much could be described as opinion. I judge him, professionally, by his actions and his leadership. In the early stages, he took on a tough job and did well with it, improving the state of the company. However, his record as a champion of creator's rights is a fantasy that is easily disproven by examining records of the period, with quotes from his own mouth. He became difficult to communicate with and was accused of being abusive by multiple parties and saw a mass exodus of talent, in the latter stages. Leadership means taking the responsibility for getting things fixed when they are wrong and cheering people on when they are right. It's taking care of your people so that they can do their job to the best of their ability. It's taking the blame for what happens under your watch because you are ultimately responsible, even if it wasn't your mistake. It's setting the example and living it. Shooter demonstrated that, at times and violated that at times, particularly towards the end of his tenure. Now, does that mean he is evil? No, just human, with flaws. If I met him at a convention I think we could have a pleasant conversation, or at least the potential for one. I don't think he is necessarily the person he was then. I'm certainly not. As for the Korvac Saga? I thought it started well and fell apart before the end. Rereading it later, I was struck by how troubling the relationship between Korvac and Carina is. I was similarly troubled when I saw Avengers #200, after the fact. I think Shooter displays a problem with women, in his writing. Whether it is an attitude or a skill lack in his writing I can't really say. He's not the only writer in comics with that kind of problem; then or now. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 23, 2017 21:09:43 GMT -5
I don't hate the Korvac saga,it's entertaining enough, though it's annoying in the way it tries to outdo every other cosmic story without having a single original idea of its own to offer. I don't think David Wenzel's art is to blame: it was competent enough, it's just that without the extra-special Perez artwork, the reader starts noticing that the story isn't all that interesting. In contrast to, say, a Steven Englehart, who maintains the interest through all kinds of artwork, good, bad, and indifferent. Or they started noticing that all the interesting stuff was at the beginning and it seemed like no ending had been conceived and he was struggling to find one. Perez's absence definitely hurts the thing. |
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Post by brianf on Mar 23, 2017 21:46:52 GMT -5
As a comic book reader since the late 1970's I actually do have a relatively positive view of Shooter, but I am more interested in the various behind the scenes stories & POVs that pop these days than having any kinda dog in this fight. I wish Shooter would blog again - he stirred up a lot old dirt I found fascinating to read about. I also do not share the extent of this authors pro-Shooter views, but since I didn't see them linked here I thought I'd share - Jim Shooter: A Second Opinion |
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Post by brianf on Mar 23, 2017 21:51:57 GMT -5
There's 2 sides to every story, Ish. Roy Thomas left because he wanted to manipulate Marvel comics into letting him write Conan while working for DC and the upper management didn't know that he had already signed with DC. I agree, there are at least two sides to every story - and I'd like to hear Roy Thomas's side of this one! Interesting stuff here - Roy Thomas: More Corrections & Suggestions |
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Post by Cei-U! on Mar 23, 2017 23:06:00 GMT -5
In defense of Dave Wenzel, his art on those later issues of the Korvac Saga was done over Shooter's boring, cramped layouts. Wenzel himself was a fine artist, as his gorgeous work on "The Wizard's Tale" attests.
Cei-U!
I summon the mitigating circumstance!
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Post by berkley on Mar 23, 2017 23:17:57 GMT -5
I don't hate the Korvac saga,it's entertaining enough, though it's annoying in the way it tries to outdo every other cosmic story without having a single original idea of its own to offer. I don't think David Wenzel's art is to blame: it was competent enough, it's just that without the extra-special Perez artwork, the reader starts noticing that the story isn't all that interesting. In contrast to, say, a Steven Englehart, who maintains the interest through all kinds of artwork, good, bad, and indifferent. Or they started noticing that all the interesting stuff was at the beginning and it seemed like no ending had been conceived and he was struggling to find one. Perez's absence definitely hurts the thing. Could well be, I haven't read it since it first came out. I do plan to re-read it one of these days. Even the other acclaimed stories of Shooter's first run - Ultron, Nefaria - don't feel particularly special to me now, though I liked them well enough at the time. Once again, in hindsight I think it was mainly Perez's artwork that made them seem better than they were at the time. But I'll re-read the whole thing one of these days and see how they strike me now. In fairness to Shooter, I think Marvel's decline started even before he came on board as editor in chief. I believe Gerber and Englehart both left before then, isn't that right? Those were huge losses to me, as I think that between the two of them they accounted for a lot of Marvel's most innovative writing at the time. And McGregor too, I believe, for all his flaws. Kirby's Eternals was undermined and then cancelled before Shooter as well. I want to say that Tomb of Dracula and MoKF were also cancelled before Shooter's reign but I'm not sure about those two, especially MoKF. But anyway, I think the rot might have set in already. The promotion of what I saw then (and still do now) as cynically motivated new characters like She-Hulk, Spiderwoman, and Ms. Marvel was part of that decline into bottom-line mediocrity as well, IMO, though I know not many agree with me. |
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 24, 2017 3:19:53 GMT -5
I'll just say this: even if Jim Shooter was the nicest guy in the world and everybody said so, I still wouldn't think much of his writing. His first stint on the Avengers is OK but far from spectacular, to my taste. I quit reading the series after the Korvac saga so I wasn't around for his second Avengers run, but everything I've heard about it since plus the 2 or 3 stories I've read as back issues has left me with the impression that it is pretty bad. In hindsight, even the first run was memorable mostly for George Perez's art. I think he was a by the numbers guy in everything, which is what made him a decent administrator as far as getting the books out on time, but also made him a pedestrian writer and an editor who was unable to appreciate someone like Gene Colan, whose style sometimes broke the rules. I used to say he would have been better off staying at DC, but can you imagine him working with Alan Moore in the 80s? I can see him now, sending back the latest Watchmen script marked over with "corrections" on every page. "Just follow my directions, Moore, you'll get the hang of it eventually!"That's funny. But you might have missed his Legion Of Superheroes runs for DC. I loved his second stint on the Avengers that included the Fall of Hank Pym and it didn't include great art by Byrne and Perez. It was Bob Hall and other journeymen. That second Avengers run was terrific, I thought the whole fall and rise of Pym arc was the most interesting thing that had been done with the character at that point, and it probably still is. It made him "real" to me for the first time. I also really liked the Molecule Man storyline. |
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 24, 2017 3:23:08 GMT -5
I enjoyed the set up to the Korvac saga but it really lost it's way towards the end. That surprises me. Avengers #177, the conclusion to the Korvac story, is an issue I actually keep a spare reading copy of because it's always been one of my favourite Marvel comics ever. No idea why. But I don't think Marvel have done "cosmic" as well since. |
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 24, 2017 3:30:26 GMT -5
Or they started noticing that all the interesting stuff was at the beginning and it seemed like no ending had been conceived and he was struggling to find one. Perez's absence definitely hurts the thing. Could well be, I haven't read it since it first came out. I do plan to re-read it one of these days. Even the other acclaimed stories of Shooter's first run - Ultron, Nefaria - don't feel particularly special to me now, though I liked them well enough at the time. Once again, in hindsight I think it was mainly Perez's artwork that made them seem better than they were at the time. But I'll re-read the whole thing one of these days and see how they strike me now. In fairness to Shooter, I think Marvel's decline started even before he came on board as editor in chief. I believe Gerber and Englehart both left before then, isn't that right? Those were huge losses to me, as I think that between the two of them they accounted for a lot of Marvel's most innovative writing at the time. And McGregor too, I believe, for all his flaws. Kirby's Eternals was undermined and then cancelled before Shooter as well. I want to say that Tomb of Dracula and MoKF were also cancelled before Shooter's reign but I'm not sure about those two, especially MoKF. But anyway, I think the rot might have set in already. The promotion of what I saw then (and still do now) as cynically motivated new characters like She-Hulk, Spiderwoman, and Ms. Marvel was part of that decline into bottom-line mediocrity as well, IMO, though I know not many agree with me. MOKF was still being published in 1983, several years after Shooter took over. Tomb was cancelled in 1979. What's wrong witth Spiderwoman, She-Hulk and Ms Marvel? I really like all those characters, Spiderwoman in particular. In the early eighties, Spiderwoman was one of te best things they were publishing for a while, IMO. |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Mar 24, 2017 4:14:56 GMT -5
Shooter took over EIC in 1978
Tomb Of Dracula-Marv Wolfman quit Marvel and Tomb was cancelled when Shooter insisted Wolfman can no longer edit the book
Master Of Kung Fu-Doug Moench quit Marvel and MOKF was cancelled when Shooter insisted on drastic changes that Moench objected to
Steve Gerber left Marvel in 1980 citing problems with Jim Shooter and upper management over royalties on the licensing of Howard The Duck
John Byrne left Marvel and ended his run on the Fantastic Four due to a falling out with Jim Shooter
Roy Thomas left Marvel and ended his run on Conan due to Jim Shooter
Steve Englehart left Marvel during Shooter's regime but did not lay blame on Jim Shooter
Jack Kirby left Marvel in dispute over the return of his artwork and poor relations with Jim Shooter. Shooter sided with management against Kirby's creator rights
Gene Colan left Marvel in disgust over Jim Shooter
I'm probably leaving some folks off the list
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 24, 2017 5:51:07 GMT -5
Shooter took over EIC in 1978 Tomb Of Dracula-Marv Wolfman quit Marvel and Tomb was cancelled when Shooter insisted Wolfman can no longer edit the book Master Of Kung Fu-Doug Moench quit Marvel and MOKF was cancelled when Shooter insisted on drastic changes that Moench objected to Steve Gerber left Marvel in 1980 citing problems with Jim Shooter and upper management over royalties on the licensing of Howard The Duck John Byrne left Marvel and ended his run on the Fantastic Four due to a falling out with Jim Shooter Roy Thomas left Marvel and ended his run on Conan due to Jim Shooter Steve Englehart left Marvel during Shooter's regime but did not lay blame on Jim Shooter Jack Kirby left Marvel in dispute over the return of his artwork and poor relations with Jim Shooter. Shooter sided with management against Kirby's creator rights Gene Colan left Marvel in disgust over Jim Shooter I'm probably leaving some folks off the list 1. Marv Wolfman and others that were Editor/writers were never going to be okay with being called on their obvious scam. How do you edit your own book ? 2. Moench hated Shooter. I'm guessing it was a clash of strong personalities. I did hear that he wanted drastic changes to MOKF and Moench lost it. 3. I never heard Gerber naming Shooter as the main reason for leaving. He was trying to own Howard the Duck and suing Marvel. 4. Byrne left after a highly successful career at Marvel. He wanted to do Superman and the FF at the same time and it wasn't done in those years. 5. Thomas signed with DC while negotiating with Marvel. Hey, that's business. 6. The Kirby artwork issue was terrible and as someone pointed out, Shooter's only recourse would have been to quit, which no one is going to do. 7. Shooter found fault with Colans efforts and Colan left. You have to remember that going back and fourth between the big two was and still is common. Ish, you have told more than a few tales about the work place. You know what happens sometimes between management and labor as I do. Management isn't always right nor wrong, but they will have the final say most of the time. Me? I just want to read good comics and Marvel during his tenure was great. |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Mar 24, 2017 6:12:07 GMT -5
Shooter took over EIC in 1978 Tomb Of Dracula-Marv Wolfman quit Marvel and Tomb was cancelled when Shooter insisted Wolfman can no longer edit the book Master Of Kung Fu-Doug Moench quit Marvel and MOKF was cancelled when Shooter insisted on drastic changes that Moench objected to Steve Gerber left Marvel in 1980 citing problems with Jim Shooter and upper management over royalties on the licensing of Howard The Duck John Byrne left Marvel and ended his run on the Fantastic Four due to a falling out with Jim Shooter Roy Thomas left Marvel and ended his run on Conan due to Jim Shooter Steve Englehart left Marvel during Shooter's regime but did not lay blame on Jim Shooter Jack Kirby left Marvel in dispute over the return of his artwork and poor relations with Jim Shooter. Shooter sided with management against Kirby's creator rights Gene Colan left Marvel in disgust over Jim Shooter I'm probably leaving some folks off the list 1. Marv Wolfman and others that were Editor/writers were never going to be okay with being called on their obvious scam. How do you edit your own book ? 2. Moench hated Shooter. I'm guessing it was a clash of strong personalities. I did hear that he wanted drastic changes to MOKF and Moench lost it. 3. I never heard Gerber naming Shooter as the main reason for leaving. He was trying to own Howard the Duck and suing Marvel. 4. Byrne left after a highly successful career at Marvel. He wanted to do Superman and the FF at the same time and it wasn't done in those years. 5. Thomas signed with DC while negotiating with Marvel. Hey, that's business. 6. The Kirby artwork issue was terrible and as someone pointed out, Shooter's only recourse would have been to quit, which no one is going to do. 7. Shooter found fault with Colans efforts and Colan left. You have to remember that going back and fourth between the big two was and still is common. Ish, you have told more than a few tales about the work place. You know what happens sometimes between management and labor as I do. Management isn't always right nor wrong, but they will have the final say most of the time. Me? I just want to read good comics and Marvel during his tenure was great. Jim Shooter demanded the entire MOKF killed off and replaced. Moench said goodbye As I said, Shooter was one of several problems Gerber had with Marvel No-Bryne did not ask to work for both companies at the same time. He was a loyal Marvel Man until his falling out with Jim Shooter As you already ready, Shooter was a complete jackass and drove Colan to quit Yes, I been part of management for decades at several companies including Saks 5th Ave and Liz Claiborne. Jim Shooter was not a good manager of people. The proof is his now being a pariah in the industry and unable to get work. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 24, 2017 6:54:29 GMT -5
We have to agree to disagree. Byrne was salivating to revamp Superman. But like Thomas, he wanted to do both of the flagship titles for the big 2.
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 24, 2017 6:55:35 GMT -5
And Gerber was suing Marvel. There's no way things were going to go well
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