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Post by The Captain on Apr 7, 2017 18:05:13 GMT -5
Yes, it is good that there is more variety out there, and, no, it's not all going to be your cup of tea. I borrowed and read the entire first Kamala Khan Ms. Marvel series, and while I was glad I didn't spend my money on it, it was a decent enough read, but I did buy the recent Mockingbird series, which definitely had a female-slanted vibe, and I enjoyed the heck out of it. Buy and read the things you like, let others do the same, and maybe the industry can continue to survive in some form or fashion. I kind of felt the opposite with Kamala versus Mockingbird. Haven't read all of Ms. Marvel, but I found it very endearing and cute and with Mockingbird, well, you're not going to win over any new fans with stuff like this   Disagree completely. They are, in fact, winning over new fans with things like that, just not straight, white, Christian male fans. Funny thing is, the world is made up of a lot more people who don't fall into that category than who do, and as those folks have been by and large ignored by the comics industry, with the Big Two primary culprits, for decades while the industry declined, maybe it makes sense to publish things that might appeal to them instead of just putting out more of the Same Old Same Old and trying to squeeze more money out of an aging fan base that has read pretty much every conceivable story with the characters that were created in the 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's. Again, if it doesn't appeal to you, don't buy it. The companies will publish what sells regardless of who is buying it, even if that happens to be women or ethnic minorities or the LGBTQ community, and they will stop publishing what doesn't sell, because the only color they care about is green and the only love they care about is their love of money. |
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Post by Batflunkie on Apr 7, 2017 18:10:42 GMT -5
Disagree completely. They are, in fact, winning over new fans with things like that, just not straight, white, Christian male fans. Funny thing is, the world is made up of a lot more people who don't fall into that category than who do, and as those folks have been by and large ignored by the comics industry, with the Big Two primary culprits, for decades while the industry declined, maybe it makes sense to publish things that might appeal to them instead of just putting out more of the Same Old Same Old and trying to squeeze more money out of an aging fan base that has read pretty much every conceivable story with the characters that were created in the 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's. Again, if it doesn't appeal to you, don't buy it. The companies will publish what sells regardless of who is buying it, even if that happens to be women or ethnic minorities or the LGBTQ community, and they will stop publishing what doesn't sell, because the only color they care about is green and the only love they care about is their love of money. People have a right to buy what they want, that's one of the many golden rules of consumerism. And I'm not against gender rights, just the variation that's seemingly sprung up overnight thanks in part to toxic dens of hate like tumblr. I'm not trying to "stir the sociopolitical pot" here, just trying to give my own perspective on why something doesn't appeal to me personally And like I said, Kamala is definitely a cut above anything else I've seen so far and I'm glad that there's something out there for middle eastern teens living in America to relate to. Same goes for the most recent Doctor Fate series by Paul Levitz |
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Post by Spike-X on Apr 7, 2017 21:52:25 GMT -5
No your opinion does not make sense to me unless you have the power to see into author and writer's motivations. Do you have a problem with the concept of creator-owned material? Or a problem that creator-owned material can be successful and lead to filmed adaptations? Do you have the same problem with author's of prose books that get adapted to the big screen? Wouldn't creator-owned material lead to the creator "giving it his all" since it belongs to him? Honestly, how much of Image do you actually read to come up with this blanket assumption? Yeah, it probably is a blanket assumption. I don't read a lot of Image comics because I'm under the impression that most of the comics seem to be on the teenage girl "weird & kooky" (Brian Vaughn's Saga & Papergirls) kick, and while that's good that there's more variety out there for the more causal reader to relate to, it's not necessarily my cup of tea Marvel's also guilty of that with Squirrel Girl, Patsy Walker: Hellcat, and Howard The Duck (the latter of which, while well-intended, seemed to entirely miss the point of why Howard was so popular and beloved to begin with), and DC's Young Animal seems to be making that their imprint's mantra Here's a tip - read, then criticize. Because you're way off with Saga, just for starters. And what the hell are Marvel 'guilty' of with those books? Trying to appeal to people besides the hordes of StraightWhiteDudes who've been trudging to the comic shop every week for twenty years to get their latest installment of superhero books that they lost all enthusiasm for a decade ago? |
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Post by Spike-X on Apr 7, 2017 21:57:55 GMT -5
and with Mockingbird, well, you're not going to win over any new fans with stuff like this Why not? I can see that appealing to a lot of people. Maybe not the rusted-on fanboys who pitch a fit whenever Marvel or DC publish a comic that dares to be about somebody other than yet another StraightWhiteDude, but so what? Maybe they'll eventually get the message that not everything needs to be for, or about, them. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 7, 2017 22:08:14 GMT -5
I've honestly never understood the whole 'the lead has to be like me for me to like them' thing. Who the heck cares what race/gender/etc a character is if it's a great story?
That's my problem with Marvel right now, they don't care about the story, they just want to be diverse (with a few exceptions)
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Post by Spike-X on Apr 7, 2017 22:16:49 GMT -5
For me being a StraightWhitedude, there's no lack of people who look like me in popular entertainment. My understanding is that for people who don't look like me, seeing themselves represented in media, in a variety of positive roles, is damned important. It's encouraging. It's necessary.
How are you going to get that urban black kid to grow up to be anything besides a drug dealer/gang member, if that's the only role he sees for himself when he turns on the television, or reads a comic book? There are hundreds of stories about young kids of colour, queer kids, girls who want to get into non-traditional fields, seeing those roles represented in media and thinking, "Hey, maybe I can do that!"
Representation. Matters.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 7, 2017 22:20:14 GMT -5
Bah. If kids are getting their role models from TV or comics, they are already doomed. I'd rather kids see real life positive role models, and learn that color/race/gender/sexual preference don't matter... your actions do. That's what I try hard to teach my kids, at any rate.
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Post by Spike-X on Apr 7, 2017 22:24:59 GMT -5
It's great that your kids have you there to do that. A lot of the kids I'm talking about don't. And a lot of people generally don't see things that way. Which is why non-white kids, and non-straight kids, and non-male kids, need that extra encouragement. Because they're going to be coming up against a whole lot of people who aren't willing to give them a fair chance, just because of those things. Who are going to actively work against them, just because of those things. Who are going to assume they're criminals and no-hopers and just generally not good enough, just because of those things.
And really, what does it cost you to see those positive role models for other people in popular culture? What are you losing? What are you missing out on if the newest superhero from Marvel is a queer woman of colour, instead of yet another in a never-ending procession of StraightWhiteDudes?
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Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 7, 2017 22:45:17 GMT -5
I don't like it because I think sticking such labels on things point out their difference, and I don't want that difference to be emphasized.. we're all people. That's why I love Ms. Marvel, it's a great comic that happens to star a Muslim girl. I don't need BS like that Mockingbird cover, that's just being divisive, not a positive role model at all.
Is an African American kid looking at a Justice League comic really thinking 'I'm definitely going to buy this because Cyborg's in it!'. I'd be more inclined to be offended by the token-ism. Far better to have something like the original New Mutants, which shows actual diversity without beating you over the head with it.
I have never once picked up a comic, book, or anything because of the race or gender of the main character.. do people actually do that?
Marvel is just trying to be able to say 'Look, we're diverse' because they hear from internet memes they're not, it has nothing to do with trying to create anything other than dollars. Of course, they haven't figured out that those people they're trying to please are far, far more likely to spend $1000 to make sure they have a top rank in a p2w video game than buy a $4 comic.
Really, though, the bottom line is the majority of Marvel's new 'diverse' characters are just not very good. That's not because they're diverse, it's because Marvel seems to think diversity in itself can be a selling point, just as they think nostalgia can be. I don't think either of them is going to get them very far, because what they really need is simply good stories.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Apr 8, 2017 11:11:53 GMT -5
I don't like it because I think sticking such labels on things point out their difference, and I don't want that difference to be emphasized.. we're all people. That's why I love Ms. Marvel, it's a great comic that happens to star a Muslim girl. I don't need BS like that Mockingbird cover, that's just being divisive, not a positive role model at all. Is an African American kid looking at a Justice League comic really thinking 'I'm definitely going to buy this because Cyborg's in it!'. I'd be more inclined to be offended by the token-ism. Far better to have something like the original New Mutants, which shows actual diversity without beating you over the head with it. I have never once picked up a comic, book, or anything because of the race or gender of the main character.. do people actually do that? Marvel is just trying to be able to say 'Look, we're diverse' because they hear from internet memes they're not, it has nothing to do with trying to create anything other than dollars. Of course, they haven't figured out that those people they're trying to please are far, far more likely to spend $1000 to make sure they have a top rank in a p2w video game than buy a $4 comic. Really, though, the bottom line is the majority of Marvel's new 'diverse' characters are just not very good. That's not because they're diverse, it's because Marvel seems to think diversity in itself can be a selling point, just as they think nostalgia can be. I don't think either of them is going to get them very far, because what they really need is simply good stories. They've tried good stories, and Chris Samnee's Thor was a rousing sales failure. What sells are renumberings, "shocking" company wide events and attention grabbing headlines. It's a sad day of late. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Apr 8, 2017 11:13:53 GMT -5
Yes, it is good that there is more variety out there, and, no, it's not all going to be your cup of tea. I borrowed and read the entire first Kamala Khan Ms. Marvel series, and while I was glad I didn't spend my money on it, it was a decent enough read, but I did buy the recent Mockingbird series, which definitely had a female-slanted vibe, and I enjoyed the heck out of it. Buy and read the things you like, let others do the same, and maybe the industry can continue to survive in some form or fashion. I kind of felt the opposite with Kamala versus Mockingbird. Haven't read all of Ms. Marvel, but I found it very endearing and cute and with Mockingbird, well, you're not going to win over any new fans with stuff like this I see this brought up all the time and everytime I think it's funny as hell. One of these times I'm going to have to stop and buy this issue. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2017 11:23:47 GMT -5
]They've tried good stories, and Chris Samnee's Thor was a rousing sales failure. What sells are renumberings, "shocking" company wide events and attention grabbing headlines. It's a sad day of late. Well according to Brian Hibbs, (comic retailer extraordinaire and the man who successfully brought a class action suit against Marvel for late shipping books) in an interview for an article in the NY Times on the diversity issue, those are exactly the things that are causing the Marvel sales slump, not diversity. Oh and Hibbs was at the meeting where Gabriel made his remarks too. If you want to read the NY Times artcile it's hereBleeding Cool has a write up on Hibbs comments too in the Times as well, but is it simply a BC Special cut and paste job with nothing else to offer on it. -M |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 8, 2017 16:25:02 GMT -5
I'm not convinced re-numbering works... yes, they get a big spike for #1, but it doesn't last, and tends to end up at a lower base level. The spike is getting smaller, too, as they continue to try to milk it.. the first time, it was exciting... 'the first new Spiderman #1 in years!' or whatever... not it's just not a big deal.. I suspect the same bump could be generated by pushing a new writer or artist.
As far as events go, they do seem to work for the masses, though I personally hate them and refuse to read them any more. Wether it's that people think they 'matter', or if they simply like stories that have multiple characters in them, the sales are clear that events still sell.
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Post by Spike-X on Apr 8, 2017 18:12:59 GMT -5
They jumped the shark with the renumbering back when they relaunched the Hulk series after, I think, six issues. The 'new' title continued the previous storyline, with the previous creative team, for another three issues. Then that creative team left, to be replaced by another one, at which time there was no relaunch.
If you insist on continually relaunching series, at least have it make sense, like with a change of creative teams, or the end of an ongoing storyline and the start of a new one.
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Post by Hoosier X on Apr 8, 2017 18:23:59 GMT -5
Yes, it is good that there is more variety out there, and, no, it's not all going to be your cup of tea. I borrowed and read the entire first Kamala Khan Ms. Marvel series, and while I was glad I didn't spend my money on it, it was a decent enough read, but I did buy the recent Mockingbird series, which definitely had a female-slanted vibe, and I enjoyed the heck out of it. Buy and read the things you like, let others do the same, and maybe the industry can continue to survive in some form or fashion. I kind of felt the opposite with Kamala versus Mockingbird. Haven't read all of Ms. Marvel, but I found it very endearing and cute and with Mockingbird, well, you're not going to win over any new fans with stuff like this That is hilarious! I'm going to give Mockingbird a try. |
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