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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2014 23:30:23 GMT -5
Jesus, those 90's Conan images. That's why I hate comics from the era so much. It wasn't confined to Spawn and Brigade, that kind of stuff infiltrated nearly everything.
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Post by fanboystranger on Aug 23, 2014 1:03:33 GMT -5
Jesus, those 90's Conan images. That's why I hate comics from the era so much. It wasn't confined to Spawn and Brigade, that kind of stuff infiltrated nearly everything. I think that's more a copy of a copy syndrome, though. Like when I look at that Bisley cover, I think, "Whoa, they want to make Conan look like Slaine." I don't think that way about the Alacatena art, although I do think about Massimo Belardinini who illustrated much of Slaine throughout the '80s. It's clear Marvel had a model for the "new" Conan, but they didn't really understand how to market it. (Because early-mid '90s Marvel didn't understand how to market anything.) Some of those later covers are just in the popular style of the '90s, but those first two (Bisley and George Pratt?, I think) send a clear message.
Also, let's consider the other N American sword'n'sorcery books that would appear after Slaine: The Horned God. We have a Farhrd and the Grey Mouser adaptation by Chaykin and Mignola, Viking Prince by Lee Marrs and the Hamptons, a new Grell Warlord series, etc. Sword'n'sorcery went from a joke to a viable genre before the medium imploded. Conan the Savage is definitely part of a tread, but it was the tail end of the trend. Despite the quality of its art (and stories, I guess), Conan was considered passe, but there was an attempt to revitalize the genre in the superhero dominated N American market. If Roy hadn't been such a defining writer for Conan in the '70s, I think the property might have stood a chance.
Also, to push the copy of a copy thing a bit further, Jim Lee was wowing fans in the early '90s, but was there anything there that we didn't already see from Byrne (figures), Chaykin (storytelling), or Windsor-Smith (general love of lines, although BWS' meant something)?
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Post by berkley on Aug 23, 2014 2:33:35 GMT -5
I don't want to speak for dupont2005, but when I read his post my first reaction was that he was talking about the two specific images that mars referred to. Those are the two that scream "bad 90 art" to me.
I've never understood the appeal of Jim Lee. I don't find his figures nearly as clean and effective as those of Byrne at his best (late 70s, IMO). But then I'm one of those readers who was turned off by the mere look of Marvel & DC comics on the stands in the 90s and avoided them like the plague. I now regret missing a lot of good Vertigo stuff for that reason, but I have no regrets about missing most of the regular DC and Marvel output from that era.
I don't mind the Bisley, though. Even though his style is often described as "pumped" or "roided up", which makes it sound similar to the "bad 90s" art mentioned above, I think it's a different kind of thing - Bisley being Bisley, rather than Bisley following the trend of the day.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2014 2:59:06 GMT -5
Did Conan The Barbarian have sales troubles? I know the series ended, was it due to poor sales?
I was kind of surprised to learn SSOC ended when I did, and can't remember when. I used to see it at the book store even after I quit reading comics, and I'd flip through it there but not buy it. Now I wish I had bought them, but anyway, I never saw it stocked in comic shops. Besides Heavy Metal it was one of the last holdouts for mags. I think a lot of shops didn't stock mags just because of the size. To this day finding mag sized back issues of any title is tough in a comic shop, so I figured that's why SSOC ended, and I always assumed Conan The Barbarian had decent sales.
But then again, this is around the time Marvel dropped anything that wasn't super heroes. Was it because nothing else sold, or because Wolverine and Venom just sold so much better? Just a couple years prior they had Alf, Heathcliff, Police Academy, multiple cartoon comics. And The 'Nam, Conan, and a handful of other comics outside the superhero genre. And the entire Epic imprint of creator owned stuff, which was trimmed back pretty far by then I think, but Groo was still on newsstand shelves.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 23, 2014 7:56:14 GMT -5
Did Conan The Barbarian have sales troubles? I know the series ended, was it due to poor sales? That is a very interesting question. Popular wisdom says that it is so, especially since the final issues of both titles (CtB and SSoC) go for fairly high prices and are always advertised as "rare - low print run". I couldn't find the actual numbers for CtB 275 and SSoC 235, but here are the numbers presented in comics near the end of each title: Conan the barbarian # 267: 138 400 copies Savage sword of Conan # 231: 64 225 copies Neither figure strikes me as a case of "must be cancelled immediately!", but then again this was back in the early 90s before the comic-book field imploded. (It's ironic that in today's world, these numbers would mean very healthy sales indeed!)
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 23, 2014 7:58:21 GMT -5
Conan the savage # 5 and 6
Issues 5 and 6 contain a 2-part story by Ian Edinton and Alcatena; a story that is very good, but very unlike anything that Robert Howard would have come up with. Replete with fallen gods, alchemists, zombies, strange science, flying ships and wandering warrior-priestesses, it's way closer to a Michael Moorcock novel than anything else. But hey, let's just enjoy it for what it is. On its own terms, this is a very entertaining story. The plot revolves around the fall from the sky of a god who's just lost some kind of celestial battle. (Gee, isn't this mag just full of fallen dark gods)? This one could be a Celestial if they had been designed by Philippe Druillet instead of Jack Kirby. Here's one of the nice touches that make me so forgiving of Edington doing a riff on Moorcock instead of Howard: the god's hand is in a river, which becomes tainted by its essence. This water will in turn change anyone who drinks it into a monster obedient to the will of the celestial visitor, for the time being reincarnated in the body of a young girl. (Notice that we already had a story about tainted water turning people into monsters, way back in Savage Tales #5, by Roy Thomas and Jim Starlin from a plot by John Jakes. But in that case, the water was simply polluted by an environementally insensitive alchemist, and the monsters were just people with boils).
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 23, 2014 8:00:19 GMT -5
What to do when half your population has turned into monsters and you can't drink the water? Well, first you switch to wine and second you hire people to sort out the problem. A local lord who fancies himself a man of knowledge offers his flying ship and zombie-like bodyguards, the leathermen, that he apparently cooked up in his laboratory from the body of deceased citizens. Something in the attitude of this gentleman suggests that he's probably less than entirely trustworthy. But his leathermen look very cool indeed. Other members of the group of hirees include Conan (of course), and a woman warrior who doubles as a priestess of Dana, a goddess we've never heard of before in the Conan mags. (But then in "Conan the savage", we often get that kind of spurious invention. Some characters will swear by "Tamir", which is Chuck Dixon misspelling of the Turanian Tarim, probably, and the people doing the swearing being Hyperboreans they should have sworn by Ymir or Bori anyway. But I digress). Bent on discovering the source of the contamination, the entire crew takes wing on a boat attached to "floating globes" that look like hot air balloons but are magical in nature.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 23, 2014 8:02:56 GMT -5
Flying ships in a Conan story? Ugh!!! At least the damn things look good. Of course they're not very sturdy. The adventure concludes in issue #6, which sports another example of Marvel trying to attract attention to this book: a cover by no less than the legendary Hildebrandt brothers.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 23, 2014 8:06:32 GMT -5
The back-up feature in those two issues is something I should have liked, but somehow didn't. As in, "not at all". It does feature an adaptation of a non-Conan tale by Robert E. Howard, and that should be good. It does feature a script by Roy Thomas, who's my favorite Conan writer after Howard himself. It's got art by Geoff Isherwood, whose work on Conan the king was some of the best I saw in the entire 80s. But the combination here doesn't work for me. First, the Howard story was one of his weakest efforts. Roy's script was okay, considering what he was using as reference material, but Geoff's art was a big disappointment. This master of the chiaroscuro, who long ago proved his mastery of the tiny scratchy line, here uses a grey wash that drowns everything and actually makes it hard to see what's going on. Plus, departing from his previous accurate rendering of the human form, Geoff chooses to exaggerate movements, contortions and muscle size, resulting in something that's closer to an early 90s Image style than to Isherwood's old style. This style was also used in the Conan the barbarian limited series " flame and the fiend". Next issue: The return of an old fan-favorite, artist Gary Kwapisz.
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Post by berkley on Aug 23, 2014 15:43:33 GMT -5
Some of this stuff doesn't look good to me at all but I'm tempted to look for a few issues just for the Alcatena art, which as RR says looks excellent though not very Conanesque, really.
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Post by paulie on Aug 25, 2014 16:20:14 GMT -5
The back-up feature in those two issues is something I should have liked, but somehow didn't. As in, "not at all". It does feature an adaptation of a non-Conan tale by Robert E. Howard, and that should be good. It does feature a script by Roy Thomas, who's my favorite Conan writer after Howard himself. It's got art by Geoff Isherwood, whose work on Conan the king was some of the best I saw in the entire 80s. But the combination here doesn't work for me. First, the Howard story was one of his weakest efforts. Roy's script was okay, considering what he was using as reference material, but Geoff's art was a big disappointment. This master of the chiaroscuro, who long ago proved his mastery of the tiny scratchy line, here uses a grey wash that drowns everything and actually makes it hard to see what's going on. Plus, departing from his previous accurate rendering of the human form, Geoff chooses to exaggerate movements, contortions and muscle size, resulting in something that's closer to an early 90s Image style than to Isherwood's old style. This style was also used in the Conan the barbarian limited series " flame and the fiend". Next issue: The return of an old fan-favorite, artist Gary Kwapisz. I've alluded to this once or twice before but allow me to get concrete: There was nothing like the 'gray wash' or charcoal effect, or 'tones' to ruin a good issue of Savage Sword... or... in this case Geoff Isherwood's art.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2014 16:42:13 GMT -5
I prefer higher contrast black and white art that relies more on crosshatching to create depth and texture but I like the washes in the old black and white mags.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 1, 2014 9:35:19 GMT -5
With a half-dozen issues under its belt, Marvel continued with the same formula: two stories per issue, emphasis on the art, no text piece of any kind. The text pages of Savage Sword of Conan had given that mag a certain aura of scholarly achievement; excellent contributors like Jim Neal and Fred Blosser would analyze the world of the Hyborian Age with the dedication of Benedictine monks and enrich our understanding of that engrossing make-believe (but coherent) universe. Letter writers like the late and regretted Steve Tompkins would do the same as well. With Conan the savage? Well... a letter page did pop up. In which someone asked if Conan and the Hulk were related. In issue 7, the first story is again written by Chuck Dixon, and drawn by the excellent Gary Kwapisz (who's one of the hardest artist to track down on the internet)! Kwapisz was a mainstay of the '80s Savage sword, and I always admired the natural look he gave characters as well as the wonderful backgrounds he drew; especially when he had to picture the natural world. This would be his only contribution to Conan the savage.The plot? Oh, some quest for a lot of gold somewhere in Hyperborea, where the natives now swear by Tamir (probably a misspelled "Tarim", who's a Hyrkanian god, not a Hyperborean one. But that's normal in a Conan book not written by Thomas, Busiek or Truman). Some recurring characters appear: the Iron Damsels, an all-girl band of mercenaries/thieves/gentleladies of fortune created during the '80s. They and Conan had a few run-ins in the past and remained careful allies who like to insult one another. Kwapisz makes them look quite pretty, though, with faces far less comic-booky than in standard comic art. So... we get the usual mix of lost temples, secret passages, hidden traps, and the coveted gold is finally lost to all as our entire crew is flushed out of the tunnels they had been exploring. Admire if you will the beauty of the scenery: Kwapisz was never stingy with his efforts and often provided backdrops that were as interesting as the actual action. All in all a light tale, but enjoyable enough... which seems to be what this mag's editorial mandate is all about. Action/comedy. The second story is a Rafael Kayanan fest, all done in splash pages that can be aligned to form a panorama (if you're willing to purchase two issues and cut them up). It's about some Picts chasing Conan in tall grass, and about Conan killing them all. Kayanan is a big fan favorite, but I seem to have the same reaction to his work than to Jim Lee's. Sure, it's beautifully rendered, with something of a Barry Smith approach, but... I don't know, it seems to be too "genre-like" for my taste. People pose a lot. They have limbs replaced by weapons. They wear ungainly, cool-looking but impractical armor (one guy here has at least a dozen human skulls strapped to his back; a beautiful effect, but wouldn't they get in the way?) Conan jumps into complex fighting stances, hitting his opponent from five different directions at once. The artist is a master of Eskrima and Kali, Filipino martial arts, and he probably uses his own expertise to draw real-life based moves amped up by the freedom of the comic page; still, I'd find that more appropriate for Iron Fist than for Conan. Conan is a western barbarian, not an oriental martial artist. All very pretty, perhaps, but I prefer a stronger dose of earthiness to my Conan art; something that looks real, not idealized. That being said, for Kayanan fans this must have been a dream come true!
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 1, 2014 9:40:15 GMT -5
Conan the savage #8Val Mayerik is the artist most prominently featured this month, as he provides the art for the first story and a painting for the cover. The first tale is a rare case of a Conan story penned by Mike Baron. It is title "Ivory", and is essentially the Hyborian version of Rocky III. Conan is riding away from some desert city on account of his dalliance with the caliph's wife, and must escape into a mountain range that's high enough to be covered in eternal snow. His horse dead, a starving Conan trudges on for days and days until he reaches the entrance to a sunny and warm valley that's guarded by a few ruffians with no manners. They are to keep all the exiles from the valley away, and these just hang around, slowly dying of hunger and cold. Since Conan has no money the guards bar his way too; their ogre-like captain even beats him up, as he's too weak from hunger to put up any kind of fight. The barbarian almost joins the line of destitute exiles, but then he's saved by a pretty woman who knows a good bet when she sees one. An exile herself, she sees Conan as her ticket home. She brings the barbarian to a spot where mammoths are frozen whole in a glacier, cue to a big pachyderm burger. (And we are free to wonder why the other starving people never did the same. No taste for mamoth flesh, perhaps). Next we have the necessary montage scene where the hero regains his lost strength and confidence (as in the puppet film "Team America"... (or even in Millius "Conan the barbarian"). Then Conan bangs the girl, kills the ogre and tells the valley's ruler what's what. The end. Despite Baron's natural good nature, this story suffered from an extreme level of grimness, mostly due to Mayerik's take on it. All the muscles in the human body are clenched in this story, apart from the zygomaticus major. Grim, grim, grim. That aspect is corrected in the second tale, pencilled and drawn by newcomer (to Conan) Neil Hansen, who does a pretty good job! For starters, he draws very pretty girls. ... ... ... I'm sorry, what was I saying? Oh, yeah, the Hansen story! Yeah, pretty decent art, with very good use of contrasts. And although Conan fails again to end up with any measurable amount of loot by the story's conclusion, at least he finally manifests that other aspect of Conan's personality: gigantic melancholies, yes, but also GIGANTIC MIRTH! The Hansen tale made this issue for me.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 1, 2014 9:54:52 GMT -5
Conan the savage #9I love this cover. The colors remind me of Frazetta, the movement of the tiger reminds me of Michael Golden and Dale Eaglesham, and the whole thing brings me back to the happy days of the 1970s Marvel magazines. It's a painting by Tom Grindberg, whom I mostly knew before this as the guy who had drawn an X-Factor annual as a Neal Adams clone, and later a Conan piece as a Mike Mignola wannabe. Well, he grew into his own and made me a fan with a single piece! Good job! (Grinderg 's art, more recently, could be seen on the Tarzan weekly strip). Really nice-looking art, still a bit Frazetta-esque). We have two new Chuck Dixon stories in this ninth and penultimate issue of Conan the savage. The first one has a final contribution by the great Enrique Alcatena, who once again turns in lovely pages. The adventure is set in Vendhya, located roughly where the Indian subcontinent would one day be, and Alcatena draws buildings and clothes in a splendid Southest Asian style; we could be in the precursor of Angkor Wat, or in Bali, or in Thailand... very exotic, and it gives the tale a sense of authenticity. Man, I love Alcatena's art!!! In this story, little grey aliens (from space, probably, an origin hinted at but not confirmed) have come down on the region and wrought all sorts of trouble. The local prince tried to stop them, but even if they're weak in the light they're pretty bad ass at night and the prince vanished. His ghost is said to roam the palace where the aliens reside. I loved the way Alcatena draws the aliens in the segment where a lady tells Conan about recent events; they look as a local would imagine them, in local dress but with weird glowing eyes. Too cool! The idea of space aliens in a Conan tale would have annoyed me as a younger fan, but in all fairness both Howard and Lovecraft had used the theme before: Yag-Kosha comes from the planet Yag, for example, and the Mi-go are space aliens who transited on Pluto (under the name of Yuggoth). So no fault, no foul. Enrique Alcatena leaves this mag on a high note indeed. (He did work for the short-lived color comic titled simply "Conan" in those days, but I haven't seen it. That titled was too much of a return to the bad old days of the '80s for my taste).
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