|
|
Post by tingramretro on Apr 29, 2017 1:57:43 GMT -5
I'm still waiting for a twelve issue prestige format Ravage limited series painted by Alex Ross. It has to happen eventually...
|
|
|
|
Post by berkley on Apr 29, 2017 3:35:08 GMT -5
I think Stan's favourites were the ones that proved themselves to be popular and big-sellers - and I don't mean that to sound cynical, I think he was always upfront about his priorities. The Silver Surfer was an exception: I think it's clear that Stan really fell in love with his version of that character.
If I had to guess, I'd say Kirby didn't have any particular attachment to the characters in the way that we comics fans so often do, he was more concerned with the stories. Of course the characters were important in that the stories couldn't be told without them, and once the characters became well-defined the stories in large part depended on or were centred around them, so I don't think he'd have gone along with some of the changes that have been made to them over the years - at least in his heart of hearts: he was a man of his time and place, and usually wouldn't criticise anything that sold.
|
|
|
|
Post by Slam_Bradley on Apr 29, 2017 11:15:44 GMT -5
Ultimately I think the enthusiasm of the creators shows through in how good the books are. I don't think there's any question that Stan liked Spider-Man. And with Kirby it's clearly the FF and Thor, particularly the Tales of Asgard, which is where Thor really took off.
|
|
|
|
Post by Phil Maurice on Apr 29, 2017 11:44:55 GMT -5
I'm assuming the two did not have a lot of love for the X-Men, as that title seemed to be the recipient of a lot less enthusiasm and creativity than their other works. See, I'd always thought that the fact the X-Men remained in print despite putting up much lower numbers than other contemporary Marvel titles indicated that the creators saw something in the characters that perhaps the readership didn't. The Hulk had been quickly cancelled due to lack of interest, but the mutants hung in there nearly to the end of the Silver Age. Somebody thought they were worthwhile. |
|
|
|
Post by Ish Kabbible on Apr 29, 2017 12:30:14 GMT -5
I'm assuming the two did not have a lot of love for the X-Men, as that title seemed to be the recipient of a lot less enthusiasm and creativity than their other works. See, I'd always thought that the fact the X-Men remained in print despite putting up much lower numbers than other contemporary Marvel titles indicated that the creators saw something in the characters that perhaps the readership didn't. The Hulk had been quickly cancelled due to lack of interest, but the mutants hung in there nearly to the end of the Silver Age. Somebody thought they were worthwhile. Martin Goodman, publisher, was the one who decided which and when titles were cancelled. He had no favorites, he was strictly guided by sales. |
|
|
|
Post by Phil Maurice on Apr 29, 2017 12:58:47 GMT -5
Martin Goodman, publisher, was the one who decided which and when titles were cancelled. He had no favorites, he was strictly guided by sales. Ok. Maybe I'm out of my depth here, but I understood that X-Men was a notoriously low-selling title. Neal Adams recalled that he asked Stan Lee what Marvel's least-selling title was, and Lee unhesitatingly answered, "X-Men." According to Adams, this was the reason he wanted to work on the book, a kind of personal challenge. So if Stan and Jack (presumably) disliked the book, Goodman was indifferent AND it was a low-seller, why keep publishing it? |
|
|
|
Post by Ish Kabbible on Apr 29, 2017 13:13:39 GMT -5
Martin Goodman, publisher, was the one who decided which and when titles were cancelled. He had no favorites, he was strictly guided by sales. Ok. Maybe I'm out of my depth here, but I understood that X-Men was a notoriously low-selling title. Neal Adams recalled that he asked Stan Lee what Marvel's least-selling title was, and Lee unhesitatingly answered, "X-Men." According to Adams, this was the reason he wanted to work on the book, a kind of personal challenge. So if Stan and Jack (presumably) disliked the book, Goodman was indifferent AND it was a low-seller, why keep publishing it? I think it's obvious that X-Men was selling well enough at that point not to cancel it. And I'm pretty sure other Marvel books might have been selling even less than the X-Men. Millie The Model, some Western title, perhaps Sgt Fury. Marvel was allowed, through it's deal with it's distributor at that time, to only publish a certain number of comics per month. If Stan had an idea for a new book to replace X-Men and got Goodman to agree, then X-Men would be cancelled. If sales for X-Men dipped below a certain point, then X-Men would be cancelled. Goodman didn't play favorites. He was strictly a numbers man. |
|
|
|
Post by Phil Maurice on Apr 29, 2017 13:22:58 GMT -5
I think it's obvious that X-Men was selling well enough at that point not to cancel it. I suppose I can't argue with that. FWIW, I enjoyed the early X-Men. I thought it was a fun title. |
|
|
|
Post by Ish Kabbible on Apr 29, 2017 13:24:21 GMT -5
X-Men #66 dated March 1970 was the final new issue. It was cancelled then returned dated December 1970 as a reprint book Here's Comichron's data for 1969 sales figures by title 1969 Sales by titleRawhide Kid sold less. Avengers only sold a few thousand more than the X-Men. A few titles seem to be missing like Millie |
|
|
|
Post by kirby101 on Apr 29, 2017 18:38:49 GMT -5
Stan Lee did not like Mary Jane Watson. Was not happy about how much the fans loved her.
|
|
|
|
Post by The Captain on Apr 29, 2017 19:43:49 GMT -5
Stan didn't ever have the affinity for Captain America that Jack did, which makes sense, since Cap was Kirby's baby, but Stan seemed to be going through the motions with a lot of the ToS Cap stories I've read. Some were good, none were great, but most of that is due to The King's pencils rather than Stan's dialogue. You can really tell in the Gil Kane issues (#88 - 91) that Stan didn't really get what was going on with the character, as that storyline is a hot mess, something that might have been salvaged by Jack's art but which suffered under another artist.
|
|
|
|
Post by berkley on May 1, 2017 23:35:24 GMT -5
Stan didn't ever have the affinity for Captain America that Jack did, which makes sense, since Cap was Kirby's baby, but Stan seemed to be going through the motions with a lot of the ToS Cap stories I've read. Some were good, none were great, but most of that is due to The King's pencils rather than Stan's dialogue. You can really tell in the Gil Kane issues (#88 - 91) that Stan didn't really get what was going on with the character, as that storyline is a hot mess, something that might have been salvaged by Jack's art but which suffered under another artist. Interesting, I'll try to remember that when I get around to reading those issues. I didn't know about Stan's dislike for MJ Watson. Anyone have any idea why that was? I can't think of anything obvious. What's the sequence of Peter Parker's love interests? I remember it as Betty Brant, then Mary Jane Watson, then Gwen Stacy, but something tells me I'm missing a few names. Of course there was often some overlap as well. That makes me wonder why the Matt Murdock / Karen Page romance went on so long without being interrupted by any other characters until I suppose they finally wrote Karen out of the series. |
|
Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,212 
|
Post by Confessor on May 2, 2017 5:14:06 GMT -5
What's the sequence of Peter Parker's love interests? I remember it as Betty Brant, then Mary Jane Watson, then Gwen Stacy, but something tells me I'm missing a few names. Of course there was often some overlap as well. Ooh, ooh...I know this one!  The first crush of Peter Parker's that we know about was Liz Allen, but Peter's first proper girlfriend was Betty Brant. His second love interest (technically) was Gwen Stacy -- Peter met Gwen before Mary Jane Watson and although he definitely had the hots for MJ as well, it was Gwen who he ended up dating. Following Gwen's death, he and MJ got together for a time, but they eventually split up. He then dated Felicia Hardy (aka the Black Cat), Sissy Ironwood, Debra Whitman, and I believe he had a brief fling with Liz Allen during this period too. There was also some kind of vague romantic connection between Spidey and Detective Jean DeWolff, just prior to her death. After playing the field with all these ladies, he finally married MJ. Following the Godawful "One More Day"/"Brand New Day" clusterf**k, in which Peter's marriage to MJ was erased from continuity, he dated NY cop Carlie Cooper and, later on, just before I stopped buying Spider-Man comics, he was gettin' it on with Silk, a superhuman who had basically identical powers to Peter, having been bitten by the self-same radioactive spider that bit him. Also, although it doesn't really count, Dr. Octopus had a romantic affair with scientist Anna Maria Marconi while he was possessing the body of Peter Parker. I have no idea about Peter's romantic life since he started getting it on with Silk because I don't follow the character any more. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2017 9:39:28 GMT -5
Stan Lee did not like Mary Jane Watson. Was not happy about how much the fans loved her. I'm surprised to read this and shocked by knowing that he did not care for Mary Jane Watson at all. I like Gwen Stacey and did not care for Betty Brant at all. I was sad when they killed off Gwen Stacey and did not care for his romance with the Black (Felicia Hardy) Cat at all too. This is one thing that I really learned today and this totally caught me off-guard here. |
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on May 2, 2017 11:02:53 GMT -5
I don't know that it is so much Stan didn't like Mary Jane as much as he really liked Gwen and wanted to go in that route. On the Stabur video series, his episode with the Romitas, he playfully accuses John Sr. of making MJ better looking and a fan favorite, so that poor, sweet Gwen never had a chance. You also have to remember that Gwen's death and MJ comforting Peter happens under Gerry Conway.
|
|
