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Post by Reptisaurus! on May 4, 2017 20:41:02 GMT -5
But everything between 1960 and 1980 (including the JLA team-ups and All Star Super Squad) were removed from continuity after 1986 when Crisis On Infinite Earths made everything terrible and stupid forever. No, it wasn't. Seriously. Certain details of the JLA/JSA team-ups may have been altered by the Crisis, but it was made quite clear in numerous books, including the Roy Thomas scripted ones I mentioned and Ostrander's Spectre series, that all those stories were still in continuity. A number of writers on various random books in the early nineties acted as though this was not the case, but that was poor research, not company policy, as far as I know. Hmm. I didn't know that. I rescind "removed" from continuity, but I still can't count it. Since they happened in a completely different way with completely different characters, I still wouldn't count it as "an unbroken run of continuity." Stories that were kind of sort of like the old JLA/JSA team-ups except for, say, JLA # 74 or the Marvel Family team-up a couple years later which couldn't possibly have happened at all due to most of the characters present not existing doesn't feel like an unbroken run of continuity to me. Hal Jordan (or Ray Palmer) were definitely a better model of continuous continuity, since a lot of the stories could have (more or less) "happened" or didn't have major aspects of 'em contradicted by the post-Crisis status quo. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on May 4, 2017 20:46:04 GMT -5
The Justice Society, or at least several of its members (Flash, Green Lantern, Wildcat, Hawkman, Hourman Etc...) had an unbroken line of continuity that lasted from about 1940-2011, I think that should count. Yes, they switched Earths after the Crisis, but Roy Thomas made it very clear in post Crisis issues of Secret Origins and Infinity Inc. that the bulk of their personal continuity remained unchanged. Various titles they appeared in right up to 2011 referenced events from books published from the 40's through to the 70's or later. But everything between 1960 and 1980 (including the JLA team-ups and All Star Super Squad) were removed from continuity after 1986 when Crisis On Infinite Earths made everything terrible and stupid forever. For all the Sword and Sorcery-ing and de-aging and terrible misuse of Jean Loring Ray Palmer didn't really have an actual continuity reboot (that I know of) 'tll the New 52. I'm honestly not sure if he's appeared since sept. 2011, though. I would summon my favorite DC superhero, if I wasn't worried about trademark infringement. Ray appeared in the new 52.. but I think he was just a scientist, and not the Atom... maybe in Frankenstein? Also, on a side note... where ya been? Nice to see you back  |
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Post by zaku on May 5, 2017 1:18:13 GMT -5
No, it wasn't. Seriously. Certain details of the JLA/JSA team-ups may have been altered by the Crisis, but it was made quite clear in numerous books, including the Roy Thomas scripted ones I mentioned and Ostrander's Spectre series, that all those stories were still in continuity. A number of writers on various random books in the early nineties acted as though this was not the case, but that was poor research, not company policy, as far as I know. Hmm. I didn't know that. I rescind "removed" from continuity, but I still can't count it. Since they happened in a completely different way with completely different characters, I still wouldn't count it as "an unbroken run of continuity." Stories that were kind of sort of like the old JLA/JSA team-ups except for, say, JLA # 74 or the Marvel Family team-up a couple years later which couldn't possibly have happened at all due to most of the characters present not existing doesn't feel like an unbroken run of continuity to me. Well, JLA # 74 was still in continuity except a couple of details. Larry Lance still died, but he was "only" the father of the current Black Canary (and frankly, the actual story was quite creep... ). ETA, everyone talks how twisted was Avengers # 200, but this issue reached the same level of insanity. I'm actually a little relieved that Crisis retconneted it. |
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Post by tingramretro on May 5, 2017 1:40:29 GMT -5
No, it wasn't. Seriously. Certain details of the JLA/JSA team-ups may have been altered by the Crisis, but it was made quite clear in numerous books, including the Roy Thomas scripted ones I mentioned and Ostrander's Spectre series, that all those stories were still in continuity. A number of writers on various random books in the early nineties acted as though this was not the case, but that was poor research, not company policy, as far as I know. Hmm. I didn't know that. I rescind "removed" from continuity, but I still can't count it. Since they happened in a completely different way with completely different characters, I still wouldn't count it as "an unbroken run of continuity." Stories that were kind of sort of like the old JLA/JSA team-ups except for, say, JLA # 74 or the Marvel Family team-up a couple years later which couldn't possibly have happened at all due to most of the characters present not existing doesn't feel like an unbroken run of continuity to me. But most of them wouldn't have happened in a completely different way, or with different characters. The only JSA members removed by COIE were the big three plus Robin, most of whom were not a major part of much of the team's history, and Huntress, who didn't show up until the late 70s anyway. Stories like the death of Mr Terrific (which is specifically referred to in Ostrander's Spectre ) or most of the 70s All-Star run (stories from which are referred to in the Robinson/Johns JSA title) or the Apokalips storyline or any one of a dozen others would have been basically unchanged by COIE. I don't see how their history having minor changes is any different to that of Ray Palmer having minor changes-and he appeared in a few of those multiple Earths stories, too. How is Jay Garrick's personal history different pre-Crisis to post-Crisis? It isn't, except that in the revised history, "Flash of Two Worlds" happened a slightly different way, as recounted in Secret Origins. |
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Post by zaku on May 5, 2017 1:48:34 GMT -5
Hmm. I didn't know that. I rescind "removed" from continuity, but I still can't count it. Since they happened in a completely different way with completely different characters, I still wouldn't count it as "an unbroken run of continuity." Stories that were kind of sort of like the old JLA/JSA team-ups except for, say, JLA # 74 or the Marvel Family team-up a couple years later which couldn't possibly have happened at all due to most of the characters present not existing doesn't feel like an unbroken run of continuity to me. But most of them wouldn't have happened in a completely different way, or with different characters. Te only JSA members removed by COIE were the big three plus Robin, most of whom were not a major part of much of the team's history, and Hutress, who didn't show up until the late 70s anyway. Stories like the death of Mr Terrific (which is specifically referred to in Ostrander's Spectre ) or most of the 70s All-Star run (stories from which are referred to in the Robinson/Johns JSA title) or the Apokalips storyline or any one of a dozen others would have been basically unchanged by COIE. I don't see how their history having minor changes is any different to that of Ray Palmer having minor changes-and he appeared in a few of those multiple Earths stories, too. How is Jay Garrick's personal history different pre-Crisis to post-Crisis? It isn't, except that in the revised history, "Flash of Two Worlds" happened a slightly different way, as recounted in Secret Origins. And in Infinite Crisis was explicitly said that these characters were still essentially the same. Heck, when they saw the Superman of Earth-2 they started to remember him! |
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Post by tingramretro on May 5, 2017 2:01:36 GMT -5
But most of them wouldn't have happened in a completely different way, or with different characters. Te only JSA members removed by COIE were the big three plus Robin, most of whom were not a major part of much of the team's history, and Hutress, who didn't show up until the late 70s anyway. Stories like the death of Mr Terrific (which is specifically referred to in Ostrander's Spectre ) or most of the 70s All-Star run (stories from which are referred to in the Robinson/Johns JSA title) or the Apokalips storyline or any one of a dozen others would have been basically unchanged by COIE. I don't see how their history having minor changes is any different to that of Ray Palmer having minor changes-and he appeared in a few of those multiple Earths stories, too. How is Jay Garrick's personal history different pre-Crisis to post-Crisis? It isn't, except that in the revised history, "Flash of Two Worlds" happened a slightly different way, as recounted in Secret Origins. And in Infinite Crisis was explicitly said that these characters were still essentially the same. Heck, when they saw the Superman of Earth-2 they started to remember him! They also remembered the pre-Crisis lives and friends, including Huntress, Robin and the original Supergirl, in the issues of Infinity Inc immediately following COIE #12. |
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Post by zaku on May 5, 2017 3:10:53 GMT -5
And in Infinite Crisis was explicitly said that these characters were still essentially the same. Heck, when they saw the Superman of Earth-2 they started to remember him! They also remembered the pre-Crisis lives and friends, including Huntress, Robin and the original Supergirl, in the issues of Infinity Inc immediately following COIE #12. Or when the full effect of COIE hit during All-Star Squadron #60 and a photo changed in the issue. So it was clear that the other character were still more or less the same.   |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on May 5, 2017 5:16:23 GMT -5
Hmm. I didn't know that. I rescind "removed" from continuity, but I still can't count it. Since they happened in a completely different way with completely different characters, I still wouldn't count it as "an unbroken run of continuity." Stories that were kind of sort of like the old JLA/JSA team-ups except for, say, JLA # 74 or the Marvel Family team-up a couple years later which couldn't possibly have happened at all due to most of the characters present not existing doesn't feel like an unbroken run of continuity to me. But most of them wouldn't have happened in a completely different way, or with different characters. Te only JSA members removed by COIE were the big three plus Robin, most of whom were not a major part of much of the team's history, and Hutress, who didn't show up until the late 70s anyway. Stories like the death of Mr Terrific (which is specifically referred to in Ostrander's Spectre ) or most of the 70s All-Star run (stories from which are referred to in the Robinson/Johns JSA title) or the Apokalips storyline or any one of a dozen others would have been basically unchanged by COIE. I don't see how their history having minor changes is any different to that of Ray Palmer having minor changes-and he appeared in a few of those multiple Earths stories, too. How is Jay Garrick's personal history different pre-Crisis to post-Crisis? It isn't, except that in the revised history, "Flash of Two Worlds" happened a slightly different way, as recounted in Secret Origins. Huh. That's interesting. I'll try to track down the revised Flash of Two Worlds. Still, I'm thinking my personal continuity standards are a bit stricter than yours - If you take out Robin and Superman, that's (I believe) all of the Super-Squad stories happening with different characters. At least in their own book. I believe they ended up in Adventure Comics or something after their series ended. I never read those. ZakuWell, JLA # 74 was still in continuity except a couple of details. Larry Lance still died, but he was "only" the father of the current Black Canary (and frankly, the actual story was quite creep... ).
ETA, everyone talks how twisted was Avengers # 200, but this issue reached the same level of insanity. I'm actually a little relieved that Crisis retconneted it.Nah, you're getting two stories confused. Cronin was talking about JLA # 220 that was.... yeah, I'm with you. That can go. JLA # 74 had a fight between two Supermen, which is more'n a little problematic given that Superman wasn't around yet in post-Crisis Lore. Also it had Black Canary moving from Earth Two to Earth One and joining the JLA which doesn't work when Black Canary is already a member of the JLA and there is no Earth Two. ALSO: As I said before, the Marvel Family crossover doesn't work at all, and (oddly) the Earth Two Robin showed up in at least three JL/JSA crossovers, and was a major, MAJOR player in one of 'em. There are definitely some S-E-R-I-O-U-S issues with Huntress (who was Earth Two Batman's Daughter, pre-Crisis) who showed up in the Darkseid story. If we really sit down and think through this, I'm sure we can come up with a dozen other contradictions. And in my eyes, any JSA/JLA story with the earth one Superman or Batman in it is invalidated, but I admit that I'm hardcore. Infinite Crisis was... what's the opposite of a ret-con? It was re-adding previously erased continuity back.. that's not "longest standing continuity" that is continuity with a hole in the middle. (I was glad to see Earth Two come back, though!) |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on May 5, 2017 5:19:23 GMT -5
But everything between 1960 and 1980 (including the JLA team-ups and All Star Super Squad) were removed from continuity after 1986 when Crisis On Infinite Earths made everything terrible and stupid forever. For all the Sword and Sorcery-ing and de-aging and terrible misuse of Jean Loring Ray Palmer didn't really have an actual continuity reboot (that I know of) 'tll the New 52. I'm honestly not sure if he's appeared since sept. 2011, though. I would summon my favorite DC superhero, if I wasn't worried about trademark infringement. Ray appeared in the new 52.. but I think he was just a scientist, and not the Atom... maybe in Frankenstein? Also, on a side note... where ya been? Nice to see you back Riiiiight, yeah, I'm fairly sure I read that. The New 52 means he didn't have as impressive a streak as Hal Jordan, but I was impressed by how the Roger Stern post-Crisis Atom series addressed and reconciled all the previous versions of the character. I'm good. Glad to be back. I have a little more free time, now! |
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Post by zaku on May 5, 2017 5:37:11 GMT -5
But most of them wouldn't have happened in a completely different way, or with different characters. Te only JSA members removed by COIE were the big three plus Robin, most of whom were not a major part of much of the team's history, and Hutress, who didn't show up until the late 70s anyway. Stories like the death of Mr Terrific (which is specifically referred to in Ostrander's Spectre ) or most of the 70s All-Star run (stories from which are referred to in the Robinson/Johns JSA title) or the Apokalips storyline or any one of a dozen others would have been basically unchanged by COIE. I don't see how their history having minor changes is any different to that of Ray Palmer having minor changes-and he appeared in a few of those multiple Earths stories, too. How is Jay Garrick's personal history different pre-Crisis to post-Crisis? It isn't, except that in the revised history, "Flash of Two Worlds" happened a slightly different way, as recounted in Secret Origins. Huh. That's interesting. I'll try to track down the revised Flash of Two Worlds. Still, I'm thinking my personal continuity standards are a bit stricter than yours - If you take out Robin and Superman, that's (I believe) all of the Super-Squad stories happening with different characters. At least in their own book. I believe they ended up in Adventure Comics or something after their series ended. I never read those. ZakuWell, JLA # 74 was still in continuity except a couple of details. Larry Lance still died, but he was "only" the father of the current Black Canary (and frankly, the actual story was quite creep... ).
ETA, everyone talks how twisted was Avengers # 200, but this issue reached the same level of insanity. I'm actually a little relieved that Crisis retconneted it.Nah, you're getting two stories confused. Cronin was talking about JLA # 220 that was.... yeah, I'm with you. That can go. JLA # 74 had a fight between two Supermen, which is more'n a little problematic given that Superman wasn't around yet in post-Crisis Lore. Also it had Black Canary moving from Earth Two to Earth One and joining the JLA which doesn't work when Black Canary is already a member of the JLA and there is no Earth Two. ALSO: As I said before, the Marvel Family crossover doesn't work at all, and (oddly) the Earth Two Robin showed up in at least three JL/JSA crossovers, and was a major, MAJOR player in one of 'em. There are definitely some S-E-R-I-O-U-S issues with Huntress (who was Earth Two Batman's Daughter, pre-Crisis) who showed up in the Darkseid story. If we really sit down and think through this, I'm sure we can come up with a dozen other contradictions. And in my eyes, any JSA/JLA story with the earth one Superman or Batman in it is invalidated, but I admit that I'm hardcore. Infinite Crisis was... what's the opposite of a ret-con? It was re-adding previously erased continuity back.. that's not "longest standing continuity" that is continuity with a hole in the middle. (I was glad to see Earth Two come back, though!) You're right. I merged the two stories because in my eyes they are intertwined. If I remember correctly, Roy Thomas created Iron Munro to replace Superman in the Post-Crisis Continuity (never read any story, I saw it mentioned in some blog). So, instead of the two Superman, probably it was Superman VS Iron Munro. From Wikipedia: |
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Post by tingramretro on May 5, 2017 9:07:42 GMT -5
But most of them wouldn't have happened in a completely different way, or with different characters. Te only JSA members removed by COIE were the big three plus Robin, most of whom were not a major part of much of the team's history, and Hutress, who didn't show up until the late 70s anyway. Stories like the death of Mr Terrific (which is specifically referred to in Ostrander's Spectre ) or most of the 70s All-Star run (stories from which are referred to in the Robinson/Johns JSA title) or the Apokalips storyline or any one of a dozen others would have been basically unchanged by COIE. I don't see how their history having minor changes is any different to that of Ray Palmer having minor changes-and he appeared in a few of those multiple Earths stories, too. How is Jay Garrick's personal history different pre-Crisis to post-Crisis? It isn't, except that in the revised history, "Flash of Two Worlds" happened a slightly different way, as recounted in Secret Origins. Huh. That's interesting. I'll try to track down the revised Flash of Two Worlds. Still, I'm thinking my personal continuity standards are a bit stricter than yours - If you take out Robin and Superman, that's (I believe) all of the Super-Squad stories happening with different characters. At least in their own book. I believe they ended up in Adventure Comics or something after their series ended. I never read those. ZakuWell, JLA # 74 was still in continuity except a couple of details. Larry Lance still died, but he was "only" the father of the current Black Canary (and frankly, the actual story was quite creep... ).
ETA, everyone talks how twisted was Avengers # 200, but this issue reached the same level of insanity. I'm actually a little relieved that Crisis retconneted it.Nah, you're getting two stories confused. Cronin was talking about JLA # 220 that was.... yeah, I'm with you. That can go. JLA # 74 had a fight between two Supermen, which is more'n a little problematic given that Superman wasn't around yet in post-Crisis Lore. Also it had Black Canary moving from Earth Two to Earth One and joining the JLA which doesn't work when Black Canary is already a member of the JLA and there is no Earth Two. ALSO: As I said before, the Marvel Family crossover doesn't work at all, and (oddly) the Earth Two Robin showed up in at least three JL/JSA crossovers, and was a major, MAJOR player in one of 'em. There are definitely some S-E-R-I-O-U-S issues with Huntress (who was Earth Two Batman's Daughter, pre-Crisis) who showed up in the Darkseid story. If we really sit down and think through this, I'm sure we can come up with a dozen other contradictions. And in my eyes, any JSA/JLA story with the earth one Superman or Batman in it is invalidated, but I admit that I'm hardcore. Infinite Crisis was... what's the opposite of a ret-con? It was re-adding previously erased continuity back.. that's not "longest standing continuity" that is continuity with a hole in the middle. (I was glad to see Earth Two come back, though!) Yes, but you are talking about continuity in terms of stories, while I am thinking in terms of individual characters. Look at something like the two part Strike Force story in All-Star Comics: it has been referenced in post-Crisis continuity, so it still happened, but it must have happened in a slightly different way, because the Huntress could not have been involved. However, the other major players in that story were Wildcat and the Star Spangled Kid. How does the fact that the Huntress was not with them on that occasion change their personal history in any significant way? It doesn't. Their personal continuity remains unbroken, despite minor alterations to events in their lives. The revised version of the first meeting of the two Flashes was quite ingenious. Barry Allen accidentally discovers an entire city he didn't know about just over the river from Central, vibrating on a different frequency from the rest of the world. He discovers that it's Keystone City, home of the original Flash, which has been taken out of phase with the rest of the universe by a trio of Garrick's old foes, so everyone has forgotten it or its inhabitants ever existed. The two Flashes team up to restore Keystone to its rightful position in the world. It was recounted in Secret Origins #50. |
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