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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jul 29, 2017 17:07:23 GMT -5
True, but wasn't DC tanking financially or some such? I remember hearing that was also one of the reasons why the idea of Crisis was so appealing Yep. If I remember right, the only series with decent sales was "Teen Titans." Action Comics was about eighty. So, what if the Crisis on Infinite Earths Never Happened? I don't know. Bankrupt? Yeah, I forgot that that Crisis led to a short-term sales boost. And since the real reason was maybe 3% trying to clean up continuity or whatever and 97% trying to do a big Secret Wars style even to sell comics, Crisis has to be considered a success. ALso, I guess if the Crisis never happened I'd have to find something else to complain about. |
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Post by Chris on Jul 29, 2017 19:41:29 GMT -5
I'd like to know what plans were cancelled due to Crisis. I know, for example, that the whole reason The Trial of the Flash went on for so long was precisely because Bates et al knew there was no point in coming up with a storyline to follow that one Bates said he was given about a year's advance notice. I think most of 1984 (which was spent almost entirely on Flash fighting supervillains with just token mentions of the trial) was Bates trying to get some last use out of most of the Rogue's Gallery, with the trial storyline resuming around the start of 1985. I'm starting to think I really should do that "Trial of the Flash" review thread I floated once.... According to Bates, Flash was going to be found guilty of murder and thus "on the run" thereafter as a fugitive from justice much like his own Rogues Gallery. Yeah, I'm kind of glad that didn't happen. I believe the Superman office knew well in advance that they'd have to close up shop once Carlin, Byrne, Wolfman took over and as such probably didn't make too many plans for the future... If I recall correctly, Julius Schwartz was trying to break new people into the business while he could. There are several stories by people who (as far as I know) only ever had stories printed in Superman or Action Comics during that time, and a few like Craig Boldman and Mark Waid who built careers in the business. Schwartz also ran a few stories by creators from non-Big Two publishers, I think. He also got a little crazy and experimental at times, such as the Asterix parody in an issue of Action Comics. Fun times. I've wondered what Schwartz thought of Crisis. Given the series' stated mission of getting rid of multiple Earths (not to mention killing off the character which started it all, who Schwartz kickstarted), it almost had to seem like a giant middle finger to him. |
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Post by chadwilliam on Jul 29, 2017 23:04:06 GMT -5
I've wondered what Schwartz thought of Crisis. Given the series' stated mission of getting rid of multiple Earths (not to mention killing off the character which started it all, who Schwartz kickstarted), it almost had to seem like a giant middle finger to him. Not to mention that it also seems to have cost him his job. Schwartz would have been 70/71 when the change took place and perhaps looking to retire for all I know, but yeah, "Julie, we have this big event coming up which is going to get rid of The Flash, Supergirl, multiple Earths, and the Earth Prime Julius Schwartz" couldn't have been great news to receive. As I mentioned in Shaxper's Superman thread, it seemed as though there was a certain feeling of nostalgia for Superman's past just before Crisis hit, with Wayne Boring returning to Action Comics for a number of back up features. Great point on his getting as much work to new talent in as short a time as he did, by the way. I never really thought about this but you're right in noting that there was a bit of experimentation going on at this time though the example of this which really jumps out at me right now are the appearances Ambush Bug started making in Action. |
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Post by chadwilliam on Jul 29, 2017 23:05:48 GMT -5
I'm starting to think I really should do that "Trial of the Flash" review thread I floated once.... Please do. I can't think of any reason why you shouldn't. |
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Post by Chris on Jul 29, 2017 23:32:20 GMT -5
I don't think it cost him his job. After he was off the Superman books, he edited a number of graphic novels based on science fiction stories (not sure if Schwartz was the agent on the original novels or not). After the line of graphic novels was ended, he was named DC's "Goodwill Ambassador." Which I think meant going to conventions a lot. "Julie, we have this big event coming up which is going to get rid of ... the Earth Prime Julius Schwartz" couldn't have been great news to receive. They actually did that story. As Julie's 70th birthday present, believe it or not. It sounds a lot more mean-spirited than it was... it was a pretty fun story, for the most part. But you've probably read it. I suppose Schwartz could have looked at it as "Well, I'm out, so they might as well get rid of all the parallel Earths and stuff. They sure don't have the chops to manage it without me." |
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Post by chadwilliam on Jul 29, 2017 23:40:41 GMT -5
I don't think it cost him his job. After he was off the Superman books, he edited a number of graphic novels based on science fiction stories (not sure if Schwartz was the agent on the original novels or not). After the line of graphic novels was ended, he was named DC's "Goodwill Ambassador." Which I think meant going to conventions a lot. "Julie, we have this big event coming up which is going to get rid of ... the Earth Prime Julius Schwartz" couldn't have been great news to receive. They actually did that story. As Julie's 70th birthday present, believe it or not. It sounds a lot more mean-spirited than it was... it was a pretty fun story, for the most part. But you've probably read it. I suppose Schwartz could have looked at it as "Well, I'm out, so they might as well get rid of all the parallel Earths and stuff. They sure don't have the chops to manage it without me." Oh I knew he continued to work in some capacity for DC - in fact, I believe he either maintained an office there up until his passing or came in at least once a week. Perhaps I should have said "cost him his position as editor on the Superman titles" instead. I'm still impressed that so many people could sneak an entire issue (with him on the cover) of Superman past its editor.  |
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Post by Chris on Jul 29, 2017 23:56:21 GMT -5
Great point on his getting as much work to new talent in as short a time as he did Now that I think about it, I have to wonder how much Schwartz helped Alan Moore's career by him giving two Superman stories in 1985. I'm sure at least a few people checked out Watchmen due to those stories (Watchmen started before or at the same time as "Whatever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow?", but that probably helped a bit too). Not entirely serious here, not but entirely joking either. |
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Post by Chris on Jul 30, 2017 0:02:36 GMT -5
If Crisis had never happened, Earth-Prime Julius Schwartz would have gotten a job (with help from his good friend Perry White) with a major Metropolis publishing house editing graphic novels based on science fiction novels that Schwartz had been an agent for in the past.
Sadly, with characters like Superman and other aliens flying around, and crazy high-tech stuff available all over the place (Steve Jobs just built a supercomputer out of debris he found after Lex Luthor's latest KillSupermanRobot), the job didn't last. Who wants to read made up science fiction when the real thing is happening all around you? He later ended up editing a series of biographical books about Superman and his home world of Krypton, including one written by Ray Bradbury.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jul 30, 2017 19:55:47 GMT -5
So as far as I can tell, Marvel just did a series merging it's multiple earths together. (Although without rebooting any of it's long running characters.)
It is a little sad that I am too old and jaded to care.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 30, 2017 21:29:47 GMT -5
I guess that , given the current books, it never happened.
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Post by chadwilliam on Aug 4, 2017 12:09:37 GMT -5
With regard to Batgirl:
"We have some idea what we want to do with Batgirl and killing her is not part of the plan. Instead, we want to turn her around and really make her a special part of the new DC Universe. When this is ready, you'll know." Bob Greenberger, Batman Letter Column from Batman 392, Feb 1986.
Greenberger's comment was in response to a fan letter hoping that Batgirl wouldn't be killed off in Crisis a la Supergirl. Of course, Crisis brought us Year One, which suggested that Gordon wouldn't have a daughter (or if he did, she'd be too young to become Batgirl) so if DC did have ideas for Barbara Gordon, it looks as though they were scrapped. This might however, go some ways towards explaining why DC was so hesitant to let Moore cripple the character.
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Golddragon71
Full Member
Immortal avatar of the Dragon Race The Golden Dragon
Posts: 343
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Post by Golddragon71 on Aug 6, 2017 2:24:29 GMT -5
The thing I always wondered was Did Killing Joke HAVE to be in continuity? I mean It was a Special One-shot. (not part of the regular numbered series) and as such, it could have been ignored altogether (we could have even seen Batgirl appear a few issues down the line and have her refer to a dream where Joker shot her and kidnapped her father)
I also kinda wonder how Superman would have fared without crisis. After it was over and they launched Man of Steel Superman was pretty much the same but Clark Kent was fundamentally changed going forward. could this have still happened without Crisis? (Personally I have always loved the Post Crisis Clark/Superman dynamic)
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Post by Jesse on Aug 6, 2017 2:53:22 GMT -5
So as far as I can tell, Marvel just did a series merging it's multiple earths together. (Although without rebooting any of it's long running characters.) It is a little sad that I am too old and jaded to care. Technically only a few aspects of the Ultimate Universe were merged with the 616. Basically Miles Morales and his supporting cast. The rest of the Multiverse still exists as far as I'm aware. |
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Post by chadwilliam on Aug 6, 2017 3:02:37 GMT -5
The thing I always wondered was Did Killing Joke HAVE to be in continuity? I mean It was a Special One-shot. (not part of the regular numbered series) and as such, it could have been ignored altogether (we could have even seen Batgirl appear a few issues down the line and have her refer to a dream where Joker shot her and kidnapped her father) I've heard people say that there was some confusion over whether or not Killing Joke was canonical at the time which I've never understood. I thought that until relatively recently, if something was published and it didn't specifically state "This is an Imaginary Tale" (or later Elseworlds or something like Dark Knight or any story set in the future) it happened. Sure, fans came up with their own ideas about continuity such as positing that some Earth-B existed where all Bob Haney tales took place, but even stuff like that often had to be addressed and explained (ie. Bob Haney's Super-Sons stories which Denny O Neil had to explain as a computer simulation so that these tales of Superman and Batman's kids could be reconciled with the regular titles in which said heroes of course, didn't have offspring). Were Annuals and Graphic Novels (the latter of which there weren't many) simply assumed to be non-canonical? When Batman faced The Wraith for instance, in that issue of Batman Special, did fans assume that this was merely an Imaginary Tale and not something that actually happened and if so, why? |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Aug 6, 2017 7:59:48 GMT -5
"What if the Crisis on Infinite Earths Never Happened?"
We'd actually spend more time discussing comics and artists...
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