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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 27, 2017 15:30:11 GMT -5
B5 was a great series, one that stood up on it's own merits and frankly, didn't deserve the comparisons and ridicule from DS9. If you were a loyal watcher, the show gave you innumerable pay-offs as you became drawn into the lives of these varied characters and races. It dealt with mature themes and difficult issues and it's probably the one thing that would ever make me despise Walter Koenig. I also love the fact that the tie-in novels and comics were as closely controlled as the episodes and ALL are considered canon. I assume you mean as the deliciously evil Bester, rather than Koenig himself.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 27, 2017 17:54:40 GMT -5
My first encounter with Babylon 5 was on the net (thanks to that old browser, NCSA Mosaic) in the summer of 1994, back when fan sites were few, far between and filled with text. The description of the pilot and first few episodes was fascinating. This was no mere TV show with some background material; it was as rich and dense as a proper epic SF novel! I was particularly enthralled by the hints of properly-managed time travel and the tight continuity between inverted causes and effects. Yes, without a doubt, this would not be a mere shoot 'em up show placed in space nor would it be a Star Trek wannabe; from a distance, it reminded me of Dune in terms of depth. (It's only later that I came across the very apt reference to "Lord of the rings in space"). I eventually started watching the show with reruns of the second season, right before season three started. Great stuff! The entire buildup to the Zha'dum episode was a dream come true for a SF fan. I've discussed in the book thread several times... I HATE time travel... it almost never works, IMO. B5 is one of the few instances where it works seemlessly.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 27, 2017 18:02:49 GMT -5
B5 was a great series, one that stood up on it's own merits and frankly, didn't deserve the comparisons and ridicule from DS9. If you were a loyal watcher, the show gave you innumerable pay-offs as you became drawn into the lives of these varied characters and races. It dealt with mature themes and difficult issues and it's probably the one thing that would ever make me despise Walter Koenig. I also love the fact that the tie-in novels and comics were as closely controlled as the episodes and ALL are considered canon. I assume you mean as the deliciously evil Bester, rather than Koenig himself. Yeah, who new Koenig could be so good at being an evil bastard, when he was so generic on Trek? I remember the when this was first broadcast, I watched the pilot, which was good , but a bit confusing, then episode 2, which had a couple different major characters( As discussed) and a totally different vibe, and then didn't watch it for a while. I had no idea people compares G'Kar to JR Ewing.. I'm a big JR fan, and I defiitely wouldn't make that comparison in any way. Early G'Kar is pretty war-like and activist, while later G'Kar is very spiritual and profound. If I was going to compare a B5 character to JR, it would absolutely be Londo.. he loved his wine, women and song... he wanted to win for the fact of winning more than the fruits of victory... He was always ready to talk to a friend and pretend he was his your best buddy, then stab you in the back when you leave... and, in the end, he got exactly what he wanted and hated it.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 27, 2017 18:30:11 GMT -5
I assume you mean as the deliciously evil Bester, rather than Koenig himself. Yeah, who new Koenig could be so good at being an evil bastard, when he was so generic on Trek? I remember the when this was first broadcast, I watched the pilot, which was good , but a bit confusing, then episode 2, which had a couple different major characters( As discussed) and a totally different vibe, and then didn't watch it for a while. I had no idea people compares G'Kar to JR Ewing.. I'm a big JR fan, and I defiitely wouldn't make that comparison in any way. Early G'Kar is pretty war-like and activist, while later G'Kar is very spiritual and profound. If I was going to compare a B5 character to JR, it would absolutely be Londo.. he loved his wine, women and song... he wanted to win for the fact of winning more than the fruits of victory... He was always ready to talk to a friend and pretend he was his your best buddy, then stab you in the back when you leave... and, in the end, he got exactly what he wanted and hated it. The description comes up in one of those making of interviews, either from Katsulas or someone else. For the first few episodes, he is a villain, stirring $#!% up, as JR was wont to do. The episode with Katherine Sakai's journey into Sigma 857 and G'Kar's rescue starts showing another side, which gets developed more in the second season. One of the things that makes G'Kar great is it's easy to see his point of view. His people were enslaved and abused by the Centauri for over 100 years. It's a very personal fight between them. In many ways, the Narn, early on, are a bit like Israel. They are a people who have been horribly abused and have fought back and aren't going to take it from anyone again. However, they also, like Israel, over-compensate and start acting as the aggressor and commit many of the same sins. You get into a lot of "Two wrongs don't make a right" arguments. One of the joys of the series is watching the journeys of G'Kar and Londo as both go between sympathetic and evil and back. It's what makes them great characters as they are so real. At the same time, G'Kar's spiritual awakening kind of gives you an insight into a figure like a Gandhi or a Jesus, or another figure who spoke of peace and love being the only answer to hatred and violence. He becomes ostracized from his people because he will not condemn former oppressors and become like them. He tries to teach and they won't listen. So, he (SPOILER) removes himself from their community and seeks knowledge of what lies beyond, with Lyta, who also has grown beyond her kind and become an outsider. I really wish they could have explored that more; but, the wheels were coming off things with Crusade and never really recovered.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 27, 2017 18:59:31 GMT -5
This featurette was broadcast in the first season, just before Walter Koenig's first appearance, as Bester...
Special for TNT, when the series came there...
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 27, 2017 19:21:05 GMT -5
This tribute to Andreas Katsulas beautifully illustrates why I love this series...
Also, a tribute to Richard Biggs...
and Jerry Doyle
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 27, 2017 19:38:45 GMT -5
A memorial, from the 20th Anniversary celebration..
Great Video that sums up the power of the series, in words and images
and some good, old fashioned heroics...
Christopher Franke's music...
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 28, 2017 7:38:41 GMT -5
Yeah, who new Koenig could be so good at being an evil bastard, when he was so generic on Trek? I remember the when this was first broadcast, I watched the pilot, which was good , but a bit confusing, then episode 2, which had a couple different major characters( As discussed) and a totally different vibe, and then didn't watch it for a while. I had no idea people compares G'Kar to JR Ewing.. I'm a big JR fan, and I defiitely wouldn't make that comparison in any way. Early G'Kar is pretty war-like and activist, while later G'Kar is very spiritual and profound. If I was going to compare a B5 character to JR, it would absolutely be Londo.. he loved his wine, women and song... he wanted to win for the fact of winning more than the fruits of victory... He was always ready to talk to a friend and pretend he was his your best buddy, then stab you in the back when you leave... and, in the end, he got exactly what he wanted and hated it. The description comes up in one of those making of interviews, either from Katsulas or someone else. For the first few episodes, he is a villain, stirring $#!% up, as JR was wont to do. The episode with Katherine Sakai's journey into Sigma 857 and G'Kar's rescue starts showing another side, which gets developed more in the second season. One of the things that makes G'Kar great is it's easy to see his point of view. His people were enslaved and abused by the Centauri for over 100 years. It's a very personal fight between them. In many ways, the Narn, early on, are a bit like Israel. They are a people who have been horribly abused and have fought back and aren't going to take it from anyone again. However, they also, like Israel, over-compensate and start acting as the aggressor and commit many of the same sins. You get into a lot of "Two wrongs don't make a right" arguments. One of the joys of the series is watching the journeys of G'Kar and Londo as both go between sympathetic and evil and back. It's what makes them great characters as they are so real. At the same time, G'Kar's spiritual awakening kind of gives you an insight into a figure like a Gandhi or a Jesus, or another figure who spoke of peace and love being the only answer to hatred and violence. He becomes ostracized from his people because he will not condemn former oppressors and become like them. He tries to teach and they won't listen. So, he (SPOILER) removes himself from their community and seeks knowledge of what lies beyond, with Lyta, who also has grown beyond her kind and become an outsider. I really wish they could have explored that more; but, the wheels were coming off things with Crusade and never really recovered. I actually always saw the Centauri as an Israel Analogue, and the Narn as the Palestinians... funny how people have different views of that sorta thing. I can see where you're coming from though.. maybe the Centauri are more like the Ottoman Empire I agree 100% about how great the two of them are as characters... when one can grow and change in such a way over time, but still 'work', is a testament to a great writer, IMO.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 28, 2017 12:31:29 GMT -5
Well, when you look across the series, the centauri are the Romans, a great empire which falls. Londo tries to restore past glory and makes a deal with the devil, making them rather like fascist Italy. In terms of the reoccupation of Narn, there is an Israeli/Palestinian vibe to it, though also a German/French or German Yugoslavian. Really, any Occupier/Occupied analogy works, as the point is that totalitarian governments cannot stand against a people who wish to be free. Eventually, they will fall (a point that G'Kar makes beautifully in a speech, when he is forced to leave the council, after the Centauri have conquered Narn.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 28, 2017 15:21:51 GMT -5
Episode 4: Guest stars: David McCallum (Man From UNCLE), as Dr Vance Hendricks, and Marshall Teague (Road House), as Nelson Drake Episode Synopsis-A xenoarcheologist and former mentor of Dr Franklin, Dr Vance Hendricks, arrives on the station with artefacts from a dig on Ikarra VII. Also arriving on the station is Nelson Drake, who is smuggling similar artefacts. When confronted by a security officer, he kills the guard with the weapon. Also on the station is Mary Ann Cramer, a reporter for ISN, who is doing a piece about the 2nd Anniversary of B5 oing online. Hendricks confers with Franklin and talks about his hope to develop organic technology for Earth, via research from these artefacts. He admits the dig was sponsored by Interplanetary Expeditions, a private firm that has teams all over the galaxy. Franklin is uneasy about a private company messing about in dead civilizations, equating it to grave robbery. Hendricks says they have the funding, not universities. meanwhile, Drake bonds with one of the artefacts and begins to change. he starts drawing large amounts of power. he comes into conflict with security, as he is becoming more machine than man. He is eventually cornered. Hendricks reveals that the Ikarrans developed bio-weaponry after repeated invasions, but they would only work for "pure" Ikarrans, as defined by fanatics. As such, the weapons fought off an invasion, then destroyed everyone else on the planet as not being "pure." Sinclair confronts Drake and belittles the weapon, stating it failed in its mission to protect Iharra. It finally gains access to Drake's memories of the dead planet. Hendricks admits that Drake was helping him smuggle the artefacts for IPX, who want to create bio-weapons. While this goes on, Cramer tries to get an interview with Sinclair, who avoids it, due to previous interviews about the Battle of the Line, which got him exiled to remote outposts. Garibaldi tries to deal with her; but, when she probes about him being fired from 5 previous jobs, he walks. After the conflict is resolved, Sinclair sits down for an interview. This is another episode that feels more like Trek, as we see how weapons of destruction end up destroying the civilization they were designed to protect. Where it departs a bit is in the commentary about private firms digging up graves for technology to develop weapons, a comment on modern bio warfare research. We get into Dr Franklin's moralistic side, as well as Sinclair's feelings about the media and Garibaldi's troubled past. Basically, this is another character development episode, with little addition to the season arc, except to set up Interplanetary Explorations and a catalyst for many events. There is foreshadowing of Earth's growing desire for more powerful weapons, in the face of alien nations with greater technology. It hints that Earth is a wary member of the League of Non-Aligned Worlds, as distrusts its alleged allies as much as its enemies. It also hints at some eements of racism, as there are pro-Earth groups who want to keep out alien influence. Sound familiar? David McCallum is fine, though the role of the flawed scientist is somewhat cliched. His character is fairly disposable. Marshall Teague is mostly there because of his physical presence (after his memorable turn as the killer Jimmy, who fights Patrick Swayze). He is an accomplished martial artist, actor and stuntman and doesn't do a whole lot her, except glare, point and swing at people. he would get to show his deeper side later, when he returns to the series as a Narn, Ta'Lon, who Sheriden meets on an alien vessel, and who becomes an aide and friend to G'Kar. Teague got to play a warrior-poet and did it incredibly well. This episode gives us a look at ISN, the media network that provides news services to the galaxy, as the B5 equivalent to CNN. It is used both as an exposition device, as well as a character for stories about media manipulation and outright propaganda and freedom of the press. Several great episodes will be built around ISN broadcasts. As we can see, so far, there is a lot of introduction going on in these early episodes, which is why the series required patience. The characters aren't fully developed yet and if they didn't connect, the chances of you sticking with it depended heavily on what you thought of the particular episode and its action or character moment. I was still pretty much on the fence, at this point.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 28, 2017 16:40:21 GMT -5
Well, when you look across the series, the centauri are the Romans, a great empire which falls. Londo tries to restore past glory and makes a deal with the devil, making them rather like fascist Italy. In terms of the reoccupation of Narn, there is an Israeli/Palestinian vibe to it, though also a German/French or German Yugoslavian. Really, any Occupier/Occupied analogy works, as the point is that totalitarian governments cannot stand against a people who wish to be free. Eventually, they will fall (a point that G'Kar makes beautifully in a speech, when he is forced to leave the council, after the Centauri have conquered Narn. True, the Roman references with the Centauri are quite obvious, but it I felt like the later religious overtones of the Narns made it feel specifically like Israeli/Palestinian stuff. You're right, though.. really there are plenty of Occupations that one could draw parallels to. Also, I always thought the Centauri were more traders with an overinflated self-importance that lost prominence as technology (jump gates) improved.. more like Victorian (and before) England or even 1500s Venice if taken alone. But then, that's why it's a good show, when you can interpret stuff and draw meaning from it in a variety of ways.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 28, 2017 16:43:18 GMT -5
Also, I LOVE how the ISN is really a character in itself as the series continues, very foresightful in this era of media bias.
I agree alot of the early episodes are very Trek-like in both theme and their episodic nature. Early one, there was definitely a feeling of some episodes being far more important than others.. but as the series when on, those unimportant one-offs became less and less frequent.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 28, 2017 19:51:00 GMT -5
Also, I LOVE how the ISN is really a character in itself as the series continues, very foresightful in this era of media bias. I agree alot of the early episodes are very Trek-like in both theme and their episodic nature. Early one, there was definitely a feeling of some episodes being far more important than others.. but as the series when on, those unimportant one-offs became less and less frequent. Signs and Portents (the actual episode, not the season title) is when I felt like "This is something more than Star Trek-style sci-fi." Up to that point, every story was resolved by the end, things move on, we had the threat of the week, etc..; that episode was different. You sit there, watching Morden asking everyone "What do you want?" and wonder WTF is up with this guy. Then, by the end, you have an idea that there are really sinister forces behind this guy and something big is brewing. It also happens in "Mind War," both with Bester and the Psi Corp and when Catherine Sakai encounters the Walkers of Sigma 957 and G'Kar dispatches Narn fighters to rescue her. On the one hand, we see other mysterious aliens in the galaxy and on the other, we see that G'Kar acts without self-interest. His explanation of the Walkers, to Catherine, hints at bigger things beyond the station, that we will see again. That's when I started seeing that there was more to this series and I didn't want to miss episodes (though I did originally miss Legacies and Babylon Squared).
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 30, 2017 0:32:12 GMT -5
Episode 5: Guest stars: Julia Nickson (Rambo: FB II) and Thomas Kopache Episode synopsis: Earth is hosting a festival to showcase religious beliefs of different cultures, whihc brings many visitors to the station. After telling a Drazi he can't bring in a ceremonial dagger, Garibaldi spots Catherine Sakai, a former lover of Sinclair's. He goes off to alert him. Meanwhile, a courier from Narn delivers a message to G'Kar. It is a death threat from a rival Du'Rog, a man who G'Kar ruined, politically. An assassin from the Thenta Makur (a Narn assassin's guild) will kill G'Kar within 24 hours. Just after the message finishes, G'Kar is greeted by his new aide, Na'Toth, who is there to replace Ko'Dath, who died in an airlock accident. G'Kar immediately suspects her of being the assassin. Meanwhile, the Centauri provide their religious demonstration, a grand bacchanalia, where Londo gets s#@$-faced, while explaining some of their gods, represented by idols, on the table (one of which Londo kisses on the statues backside). He and Vir remark of the significance of the ceremony, which commemorates the Centauri victory over a related species, the Xon. Londo remarks as to the last words, of the last Xon, "Arrrrgghhh!!!!!" G'Kar goes to N'Grath (the mobster insect) for a bodyguard and hires a big bruiser. He later finds him dead in his quarters, with a black flower, symbol of the Thenta Makur. Meanwhile, Sinclair and Catherine meet up, argue a bit, then go to dinner and his quarters for some hot lovin'. During all of this, Delenn's new aide, Lenier, of the Third Fane of Chudomo (a sort of monastic order) arrives on the station, keeping his eyes averted from Delenn. She tells him she cannot have an aide who will not look at her, as they would forever be walking into walls. She tells him to help prepare for the Minbari Rebirth Ceremony, as part of their demonstration. She also cautions him not to use her title Satai (which he uses when they first meet), nor mention the Grey Council (the Minbari ruling council). Lenier doesn't understands but says he will obey. At the Minbari rebirth Ceremony, the guests eat fruit, including Sinclair, and Delenn looks at him and says "And so it begins!" G'Kar contacts Narn to have Na'Toth recalled and finds out that the courier that was supposed to come turned up dead. He finds himself facing the courier he met, Tu'Pari, holding a weapon on him. He is the assassin. We later see Ta'Pauri torture G'Kar, in a secluded chamber, using pain givers, electrodes which deliver neural shocks. Na'Toth comes on the scene and tells the assassin that she is his back up and proceeds to kick the spit out of G'Kar to prove it. He kicks damage the pain givers and allow G'Kar to attack the assassin, knocking him out. Na'Toth was faking, and G'Kar said she enjoyed it too much. She replies she had to make it look good. Sinclair says goodbye to catherine, who is off to do another survey and she remarks that the Minbari ceremony doubles as a marriage ceremony, so he might have just married Delenn. He laughs it off. Ta'Pauri awakes in a departure lounge, with G'Kar and Na'Toth hovering over him. They hustle him on a transport, tell him he has missed his deadline and G'Kar has deposited a large sum of money into his account. The assassin replies that the Thenta Makur will think he reneged on a contract, for a bribe and will hint him down. G'Kar wishes him luck and laughs with Na'Toth. The episode ends with Sinclair's demonstration of Earth's dominant belief systems... This is a fun episode that, while still fitting the standard done-in-one template, it does offer some further tidbits about bigger things. More is added to the mystery of the Minbari. Why is Delenn keeping her status as a member of the Grey Council secret? What is the significance of her remark to Sinclair, during the ceremony? The cast is joined by Julie Caitlin Brown, as Na'Toth. She has a great chemistry with Andreas Katsulas and their scenes are always fun to watch. Unfortunately, she decided not to come back for the second season and the role was recast, by an actress who played Na'Toth far too low keyed. The producers dumped the actress and eliminated the character. brown returned for another episode, as a human character, showing how beautiful she is. Na'Toth would return for an episode later on and Brown returned for the role. Alas, it was a one time thing. Also joining the cast is sci-fi fan favorite Bill Mumy, of Lost in Space, as Lenier. (Mumy with Patricia "Lyta Alexander" Tallman) Mumy talks about being cast in the role and the make-up here: and discusses Lenier Mumy plays Lenier as a complete innocent, outside the monastery for the first time. Everything astonishes him and he is constantly looking at things around him. He ends up becoming a favorite character, both due to Mumy's talent; but also because Lenier proves to be a staunch ally of Delenn and the rest of the crew of B5, has a moral code, can actually kick some hinder, and has great depths beneath that innocent exterior. he grows into a confident leader and fighter over the course of the series. We will also see that Lenier falls in love with Delenn and worships his every moment with her. That will come to a head, later. The Centauri feast is a great scene, filled with comedy. Peter Jurasik really hams it up, to great affect, while Stephen Furst acts as straight man, but gets one of the best lines, as Londo passes out. Vir remarks that he has become one with his inner self. Additional comedy comes from the interplay of G'Kar and Na'Toth, as well as G'Kar's paranoia and the scene where he finds his massive bruiser of a bodyguard, dead. Catherine Sakai is Sinclair's old flame and the two have danced in and out of each other's lives on several occasions. The character replaces Carolyn Sykes, Sinclair's love interest in The Gathering. JMS liked to use the same initials for characters fulfilling the same role. Jeffrey Sinclair is replaced by John Sheriden, Carolyn Sykes by Catherine Sakai. Julia Nickson is gorgeous and brings a lively personality to the role. She turns up for a handful of episodes; but, when Michael O'Hare departed the series, her character lost her purpose and she left the show. Catherine's fate would be explored in the B5 novel To Dream in the City of Sorrows, by Kathryn Drennan, who was married to JMS (since divorced). The ending, with the various Earth cultures represented by the seemingly endless line of people is one of my favorite scenes of the entire series. In such a quiet way it speaks to the diversity of the human race and how that diversity enriches us. With the other races, we see one culture and dialogue to the effect that some wiped out rival species on their home planets. Earth is shown to have maintained that diverse culture and humans are considered to be the stars on the rise of the galaxy. As an atheist, I was glad to see an atheist is represented early on; but, also in harmony with those of religious or spiritual orientation. It suggests that opposing viewpoints can coexist when you look towards similarities, rather than differences. I also enjoyed the fact that more than just the large religions were represented, such as the Oglala and the Maori, as well as others from different societies around the globe. It is nice to think that those cultures and traditions are also carried off to the stars.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2017 17:42:33 GMT -5
big fan of the show, and was lucky enough over the years (mainly from attending Dragon*con)to have met the entire cast. . several multiple times, and gotten tons of cool souvenirs (such as autographed photos, autographed CDs, T-shirts (some autographed), a huge display from Pat Tallman (the giant vinyl banner that hangs behind her booth. . she put me in touch with the person who created it for her, and I bought one, that Pat signed)). yeah. . good memories: that's Pat, and her husband (boyfriend?) at the time - he played Kosh. This is from Uncommoncon (the one time they had it) up in Dallas. . spent almost the whole con hanging out with them and Mira Furlan! Don't have my pics of the rest of the cast online tho.. only on my computer. . LOL. . so these are all I have handy!
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