shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 20, 2017 21:44:18 GMT -5
Here's another question, though... does the Wonder Girl in those early Wonder Woman issues resemble Donna in any way personality-wise? That would be another good argument for or against. In the early Titans stories, her only distinct trait is being boy crazy. That's present in the Wonder Woman stories as well, but on a more muted level. Also keep in mind those stories were written by a different writer working under a different editor. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 20, 2017 21:45:38 GMT -5
I'm really poorly read on the Titans after 1984 or so, so I'm genuinely curious. You chose a good time to stop  Yes, but I would argue that her Teen Titans and New Teen Titans depictions have little to nothing in common with one another. In Teen Titans, she's boy crazy and little else. In New Teen Titans, she's caring, nurturing, and the first to cringe when Gar Logan behaves the way she did in the first volume (and no, the irony is never noted). Thus, the slightly hormonal Wonder Girl in the Wonder Woman stories more closely resembles the boy-obsessed Wonder Girl of Teen Titans vol. 1 than the Donna Troy of New Teen Titans vol. 1 does. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 20, 2017 21:48:14 GMT -5
I'm really poorly read on the Titans after 1984 or so, so I'm genuinely curious. Did Donna ever actually have much of a distinctive personality Well, she had the housewife thing going... she was a photographer for a while. It's really her personality in the early Titans that I was talking about.. the sorta boy crazy teen of the early 60s. |
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Jul 20, 2017 23:13:39 GMT -5
No, this was all Robert Kanigher just not giving a crap. He cared enough to continually drive the content of the title towards what fan letters were asking for, even if he realized too late that the peril in doing so is that the loudest fans aren't always the majority. And he cared enough to attempt various explanations for a while as to how Wonder Woman, Wonder Girl, and Wonder Tot could co-exist. I think he just wove too complex a web for himself. I kind of feel like Kanigher only cared moment to moment about "continuity" rather than caring on a larger scale. What I mean is, for a given month he might have an explanation if it suited his story needs at the time, but if it didn't, I don't get the impression it mattered to him. He wasn't going to let details get in the way of telling a story, so if a story came up that didn't make any sense according to the "rules" he had set up, he just did the story anyway and didn't bother explaining it. My impression - and this is just a gut feeling really - is that Kanigher was from the Weisinger school, where he assumed there was a lot of turnover with young readers, so if someone read a story that explained it one way, and then it was explained a totally different way ten issues later, it wouldn't matter because different people would be reading it, or since they were kids, they'd just forget anyway. I could be wrong. But I feel like Wonder Girl as a distinct character wasn't created intentionally by Kanigher so much as she evolved organically as the stories he wrote used the Wonder Girl idea in bigger and different ways and required the concept to evolve. I don't think your thesis is necessarily wrong, but it's going to be hard to pinpoint a "first appearance" with something like this. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 20, 2017 23:19:43 GMT -5
He cared enough to continually drive the content of the title towards what fan letters were asking for, even if he realized too late that the peril in doing so is that the loudest fans aren't always the majority. And he cared enough to attempt various explanations for a while as to how Wonder Woman, Wonder Girl, and Wonder Tot could co-exist. I think he just wove too complex a web for himself. I kind of feel like Kanigher only cared moment to moment about "continuity" rather than caring on a larger scale. What I mean is, for a given month he might have an explanation if it suited his story needs at the time, but if it didn't, I don't get the impression it mattered to him. He wasn't going to let details get in the way of telling a story, so if a story came up that didn't make any sense according to the "rules" he had set up, he just did the story anyway and didn't bother explaining it. My impression - and this is just a gut feeling really - is that Kanigher was from the Weisinger school, where he assumed there was a lot of turnover with young readers, so if someone read a story that explained it one way, and then it was explained a totally different way ten issues later, it wouldn't matter because different people would be reading it, or since they were kids, they'd just forget anyway. I agree with this. And I think that was the general culture/attitude of DC as a whole back then -- they were writing disposable fiction to twelve year olds. Some quotes from Bob Haney about this: I could be wrong. But I feel like Wonder Girl as a distinct character wasn't created intentionally by Kanigher so much as she evolved organically as the stories he wrote used the Wonder Girl idea in bigger and different ways and required the concept to evolve. I see a tension in how she is presented -- the fans treating her like her own character and demanding stories starring her, and Kanigher trying to find a logical way to make this work when he knows damn well she isn't her own character. Ultimately, around issue #144, he just seems to throw his hands up in the air and say "Give them what they want." Absolutely agreed. I'd personally go with WW #144, but all I can say with some certainty is that B&tB #60 is not her first appearance. (1) Catron, Michael. "The Comics Journal." Bob Haney Interviewed by Michael Catron Part Four (of Five) «. The Comics Journal, 10 Jan. 2011. Web. 21 July 2016. |
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Post by coinilius on Jul 21, 2017 2:54:39 GMT -5
No mention yet of Carol Strickland and all the wonderful writing she has done on the subject of Wonder Woman and Donna Troy? On her old Wonder Woman Central she laid out that she thought issue #123 was the first appearance of Wonder Girl as a seperate character, though acknowledges the ambiguity issues.
Also, to add to the confusion - issue #200, during the mod Diana Prince era, reprints the story from issue #144 but there are some changes - it is inteoduced as being about Diana when she was a (Wonder) girl, and the art has been retouched to make the adult Diana and Wonder Tot into simply random Amazons!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2017 6:07:14 GMT -5
I've might be wrong here and I do have an average knowledge of the Teen Titans and all that; I would say that her first appearance was in Brave and the Bold #60 of which in my mind it is. However, in all the years that I read DC Comics ... there is a Robin Origin Story, a Kid Flash Origin Story, and a Aqualad Origin Story ... along with Speedy as well.
I don't recall ever read a Wonder Girl Story here.
My knowledge of Wonder Woman is good in the Golden Age of Comics and not in the early days of the Silver Age until the formation of the Satellite Era of the Justice League of the America. After that, my knowledge of her is good but not as good as the Golden Age.
To just to let everyone here knows this - I don't care about continuity at all. This subject matter makes me confused and upset at the same time. Please let's not talk about it.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 21, 2017 8:48:57 GMT -5
No mention yet of Carol Strickland and all the wonderful writing she has done on the subject of Wonder Woman and Donna Troy? On her old Wonder Woman Central she laid out that she thought issue #123 was the first appearance of Wonder Girl as a seperate character, though acknowledges the ambiguity issues. I read a paraphrase of that argument, though I should probably consult the original. It works to the extent that it's the first time Wonder Girl and Wonder Woman are side-by-side, and yet it's clearly shown to be an imaginary story manufactured by Diana and her mother for the sake of the readers. It also comes one issue after Wonder Girl gets a solo adventure set in the past where we first see ambiguity as to whether or not she's actually a younger version of Diana. Wow. I did not know that. Thanks. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 21, 2017 8:52:32 GMT -5
However, in all the years that I read DC Comics ... there is a Robin Origin Story, a Kid Flash Origin Story, and a Aqualad Origin Story ... along with Speedy as well. I don't recall ever read a Wonder Girl Story here. Wonder Girl's origin is revealed in Teen Titans #22 (August 1969) as an attempt by Marv Wolfman to resolve the ambiguity surrounding who Wonder Girl actually was. She first gets the name Donna Troy in that issue as well. Here's my review of the issue, though the photos are currently down thanks to Photoshop's superd*ckery. They will be restored soon. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2017 10:33:30 GMT -5
Thanks shaxper for that information - I'm going to ask a dear friend of mine if he has Teen Titans #22. I'm going to read it as soon that I can. |
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Post by coinilius on Jul 21, 2017 16:58:07 GMT -5
It was the Amazon Magic Eye story which Carol put as the first appearance of Seperate Character Wonder Girl, the story which you mentioned in your opening post (sorry I might have gotten the issue numbers wrong when I posted before) - as you mentioned yourself, it's kind of ambiguous as to whether Wonder Girl and Diana are seperate or not in that story, though presumably it was still meant to be just young Diana - Diana often seems to be talking about herself at different ages as being seperate people. The various Mer-Boy/Mer-Man, Bird-Boy/Bird-Man relationships with Diana and Wonder Girl also add to the confusion.
I quite enjoy the Impossible Tales era of Wonder Woman - they're goofy, but they have a charm and sense of family and fun to them that is actually quite nice. I've got a soft spot for the whole Magic Penny origin up to the (first of many) 'Return to the Golden Age' run, actually.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 21, 2017 22:22:39 GMT -5
It was the Amazon Magic Eye story which Carol put as the first appearance of Seperate Character Wonder Girl, the story which you mentioned in your opening post (sorry I might have gotten the issue numbers wrong when I posted before) - as you mentioned yourself, it's kind of ambiguous as to whether Wonder Girl and Diana are seperate or not in that story, though presumably it was still meant to be just young Diana - Diana often seems to be talking about herself at different ages as being seperate people. The various Mer-Boy/Mer-Man, Bird-Boy/Bird-Man relationships with Diana and Wonder Girl also add to the confusion. Exactly. It totally makes sense as a first appearance until, two issues later, an explicit attempt is made to show that it was a teen version of Wonder Woman in that story. I absolutely agree. It's a really fun era, Wonder Girl being the most fun part of it. |
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Post by coinilius on Jul 21, 2017 23:39:43 GMT -5
I quite like Wonder Tot as well lol
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Post by MDG on Jul 24, 2017 9:27:21 GMT -5
Wonder Woman looks like a total psycho in these issues. I wish I can remember where i read an article where the author said that most of Andru and Esposito's characters always looked either crazy or drunk. No, this was all Robert Kanigher just not giving a crap. He cared enough to continually drive the content of the title towards what fan letters were asking for, even if he realized too late that the peril in doing so is that the loudest fans aren't always the majority. And he cared enough to attempt various explanations for a while as to how Wonder Woman, Wonder Girl, and Wonder Tot could co-exist. I think he just wove too complex a web for himself. I'd be skeptical of claims made about what "readers are clamoring for" made during the 60s. It's just as likely that Kanigher found it easy to write the "impossible stories" after years of doing solo WW stories. Or that if he showed that issues with Wonder Girl on the cover sold, DC might spin her off and he'd have another book in his stable. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 24, 2017 9:40:16 GMT -5
He cared enough to continually drive the content of the title towards what fan letters were asking for, even if he realized too late that the peril in doing so is that the loudest fans aren't always the majority. And he cared enough to attempt various explanations for a while as to how Wonder Woman, Wonder Girl, and Wonder Tot could co-exist. I think he just wove too complex a web for himself. I'd be skeptical of claims made about what "readers are clamoring for" made during the 60s. It's just as likely that Kanigher found it easy to write the "impossible stories" after years of doing solo WW stories. Or that if he showed that issues with Wonder Girl on the cover sold, DC might spin her off and he'd have another book in his stable. I base that claim upon the letters published (though, admittedly, those can easily be skewed and/or blatantly made up) and upon the continual abrupt changes the treatment of these stories and characters took in a two year span, most of these changes attributed to fan demand. Possible Kanigher lied? Of course. But I have no evidence to suggest he did so, nor a motive as to why he would have. |
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