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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 23:56:23 GMT -5
Both LCSes here (I guess ... I haven't been to one for something like 5 years, for reasons I've outlined elsewhere; I haven't been to the other since sometime before an ownership change last year) have $1 bins. When I started frequenting the second one, with certain quantities the price went below that -- like 5 for $5 but 12 for $10, 25 for $15, or whatever.
I don't recall that the one in North Little Rock had discount bins, but I didn't pay a whole lot of attention, since I was still a few years from getting back into comics & was just looking through the back issues for certain fondly remembered titles from my childhood, i.e. Captain Savage.
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Post by hondobrode on Sept 6, 2014 0:09:40 GMT -5
Gotta agree about value added. Shops back in Omaha when I was a kid always had quarter boxes, and decent shops have dollar boxes.
One LCS does, but the guy overly weird nature surpassed my desire to go.
I could name a half dozen good shops I used to go to when I lived in L.A. that I'd gladly support.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Sept 6, 2014 0:46:51 GMT -5
The problem I have is that once I got into digital comics, it completely changed my mindset as a reader. Actually, it started with the rise of the modern collected editions market; I simply lost interest in individual issues and maintaining storage boxes around 2000. Back when comics were 75 cents it was easy for me to justify taking a chance on something that could easily turn out to be mediocre, but now I just want the "good stuff" on my shelf: Kirby, Fantagraphic's collections, Marvel Masterworks, etc.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Sept 6, 2014 4:15:55 GMT -5
The problem I have is that once I got into digital comics, it completely changed my mindset as a reader. Actually, it started with the rise of the modern collected editions market; I simply lost interest in individual issues and maintaining storage boxes around 2000. Back when comics were 75 cents it was easy for me to justify taking a chance on something that could easily turn out to be mediocre, but now I just want the "good stuff" on my shelf: Kirby, Fantagraphic's collections, Marvel Masterworks, etc. I'm currently having this dilemma with the new Valiant titles. I was initially pulling all of them each month when they came out, but the $3.99 cover price, combined with the slow crawl of modern comic book decompression, pretty much made me give up on each after the first story arc. If they weren't going to floor me, they weren't worth the money. I noticed only recently that newer titles drop to about half price on mycomicshop.com after a year, so I started picking up the Valiant titles again in this way...and some of them are truly amazing. I can rationalize paying $2 an issue for them. BUT, if I buy the titles in this manner, I'm not supporting the publisher, and the publisher is a third party contender that absolutely needs the sales. So the books aren't worth it to me at $4 a pop, but I'm not actually supporting the publisher, nor my LCS, nor voting with my dollar, if I buy them at $2 a pop. The problem isn't the books -- it's the modern comic book price point. Anyway, I think I've taken us way off topic here.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2014 12:50:18 GMT -5
I'm currently having this dilemma with the new Valiant titles. I was initially pulling all of them each month when they came out, but the $3.99 cover price, combined with the slow crawl of modern comic book decompression, pretty much made me give up on each after the first story arc. If they weren't going to floor me, they weren't worth the money. It is a source of great annoyance that so many writers are writing like this as I'm being told that my trade-writing is killing the industry. The publishers give us this format, writers write with said format in mind and then the consumers get blamed for choosing this format.
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ironchimp
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Simian Overlord
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Post by ironchimp on Sept 6, 2014 18:17:25 GMT -5
I'm currently having this dilemma with the new Valiant titles. I was initially pulling all of them each month when they came out, but the $3.99 cover price, combined with the slow crawl of modern comic book decompression, pretty much made me give up on each after the first story arc. If they weren't going to floor me, they weren't worth the money. It is a source of great annoyance that so many writers are writing like this as I'm being told that my trade-writing is killing the industry. The publishers give us this format, writers write with said format in mind and then the consumers get blamed for choosing this format. Honestly I wouldn't worry about trade waiting. I heard a long interview with Rob Liefeld (i know i know... but he was really good on it...). Anyway - he was talking about the relaunch of Prophet - it was selling 5k-6k in floppies a month but he then said they sold 70k of the first trade. It seemed from the way he was talking that in the case of Prophet at least it was the trade sales that were keeping the series alive.
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Post by Action Ace on Sept 6, 2014 18:53:51 GMT -5
I've come to accept the end of my comic collecting days when the floppy format disappears. It's the waiting that irritates me.
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Post by Randle-El on Sept 6, 2014 23:25:32 GMT -5
Lots of great points in this thread... both those on and off-topic. Regarding comics price point -- I'm pretty sure that the price of comics has not scaled with inflation. I remember I once tried plugging in some numbers into one of those inflation calculator websites that lets you translate the price of an item in current dollars to a specific year. Even adjusted for inflation, modern single issues are more expensive than they were back when I was a kid (mid to late 80s). Unfortunately, I think the economics of the industry has changed too much for it to ever go back. Comics used to be seen a cheap, disposable entertainment for kids, and I think the prices and production values reflected that, whereas now, comics are a niche collectibles for adults, and are priced accordingly. I still enjoy the single issue format, but I can't see myself sticking with that format if the price goes up beyond 3.99. That seems to be the personal tipping point for me. What that will probably mean is that I will stop buying Big Two comics in single issue format. I'm still amazed that with the sales of Walking Dead being what it is that they are still pricing it at $2.99. In fact, with his "star power" Kirkman could easily justify pricing his books higher, but they ALL sell at $2.99.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2014 23:53:01 GMT -5
I'm about ready to ditch floppies altogether. The frequency with which cheap omnibus editions and affordably priced hardcover sets come out make it hard to justify collecting floppies. And I'm trying to come around to digital, I'll embrace it eventually.
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 7, 2014 6:14:54 GMT -5
This conversation bums me out. I am barely buying comics at 3.99. There's just no way I'm paying 4.25 or more. But there also aren't many books holding my interest these days.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Sept 7, 2014 7:45:27 GMT -5
$2.50 was my limit on floppies. When they went to $2.99, I dropped almost my entire massive pull-list. Then, when the Nu-52 happened, it made it even easier to just dump DC entirely (I was already done with Marvel), and just handpick a few worthwhile independent titles to follow.
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 7, 2014 7:53:43 GMT -5
There are only 2 things I will buy, Savage Dragon and anything Thanos related.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2014 11:59:34 GMT -5
The simple math is that as sales decline cover prices will rise. It's what happens in niche hobbies because of the economics of scale. The next price point after $3.99 will not be $4.25 it will be $4.99.
Just as a bit of a reference-for our studio-everytime we increase our print run by 50 or so copies, our price per copy drops anywhere from 10-20 cents, so in reverse every time we lower our print run it goes up 10 to 20 cents per copy-now our print runs are MUCH smaller than the big 2 and even most indy books Diamond deals with, so the price fluctuations are much larger for us, but there is significant increases in production costs the smaller the print runs go, and most publishers print to pre-orders based on Diamond orders, so prices will continue to rise the more sales drop on the floppies. Also expect trade prices to go up the less floppies sell, as floppy sales subsidize trade production costs and if they do not sell enough, the trades will go up to cover those additional costs. If you want to see what will happen to prices look at the war gaming market-up through the 80s war game sold in significant numbers and prices on theme were comparable to other hobby games. With the advent of computer games and other hobby games such as CCGs, the war game market shrunk and prices rose sharply. Now, a non-kickstarted war game will run you 5-6X the cost of another comparable size/production value hobby game simply because so few copies are made increasing the per unit production cost. It's the niche effect, which is the bottom end of that economy of scale. War games became so expensive and so few copies were being produced, they pretty much became direct order only and hobby/game stories stopped carrying them. The advent of crowd-funding changed the paradigm a bit, but not the fact that it's nearly impossible to find war games on the shelves of a game store or that those few that do hit the shelves are insanely expensive for what you get.
It's a catch 22, the more expensive your cover price gets, the more sales drop, the more they drop, the higher prices go because production costs spiral up higher than the inflation rate everyone likes to point to when producing on a smaller scale. Inflation rate does impact cost on something like comics, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to increases in production costs on unit costs when scaling downwards in scale.
-M
PS look at it this way-there is usually a set cost to run a printing press, plus a price per copy. So if that set cost is x, and doesn't change if you print 1 copy or a thousand, the more you print the more you defray that cost. The longer a press runs, the less each copy costs, but X won't change no matter how long it runs. So if x =$5K, and price per copy is 20 cents at 100,000 copies but 30 cents at 50,000 copies, not only do you have to cover the extra 10 cents per copy if you only print 50K, you have to cover more of the $5k with each copy because the price per copy on that has doubled. Plus the cost per copy on creator salaries, delivery costs, etc. have doubled as well. If it dropped to 25K units produced, those costs have quadrupled compared to 100K, etc. etc.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Sept 7, 2014 18:08:51 GMT -5
The simple math is that as sales decline cover prices will rise. It's what happens in niche hobbies because of the economics of scale. The next price point after $3.99 will not be $4.25 it will be $4.99. Just as a bit of a reference-for our studio-everytime we increase our print run by 50 or so copies, our price per copy drops anywhere from 10-20 cents, so in reverse every time we lower our print run it goes up 10 to 20 cents per copy-now our print runs are MUCH smaller than the big 2 and even most indy books Diamond deals with, so the price fluctuations are much larger for us, but there is significant increases in production costs the smaller the print runs go, and most publishers print to pre-orders based on Diamond orders, so prices will continue to rise the more sales drop on the floppies. Also expect trade prices to go up the less floppies sell, as floppy sales subsidize trade production costs and if they do not sell enough, the trades will go up to cover those additional costs. If you want to see what will happen to prices look at the war gaming market-up through the 80s war game sold in significant numbers and prices on theme were comparable to other hobby games. With the advent of computer games and other hobby games such as CCGs, the war game market shrunk and prices rose sharply. Now, a non-kickstarted war game will run you 5-6X the cost of another comparable size/production value hobby game simply because so few copies are made increasing the per unit production cost. It's the niche effect, which is the bottom end of that economy of scale. War games became so expensive and so few copies were being produced, they pretty much became direct order only and hobby/game stories stopped carrying them. The advent of crowd-funding changed the paradigm a bit, but not the fact that it's nearly impossible to find war games on the shelves of a game store or that those few that do hit the shelves are insanely expensive for what you get. It's a catch 22, the more expensive your cover price gets, the more sales drop, the more they drop, the higher prices go because production costs spiral up higher than the inflation rate everyone likes to point to when producing on a smaller scale. Inflation rate does impact cost on something like comics, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to increases in production costs on unit costs when scaling downwards in scale. -M PS look at it this way-there is usually a set cost to run a printing press, plus a price per copy. So if that set cost is x, and doesn't change if you print 1 copy or a thousand, the more you print the more you defray that cost. The longer a press runs, the less each copy costs, but X won't change no matter how long it runs. So if x =$5K, and price per copy is 20 cents at 100,000 copies but 30 cents at 50,000 copies, not only do you have to cover the extra 10 cents per copy if you only print 50K, you have to cover more of the $5k with each copy because the price per copy on that has doubled. Plus the cost per copy on creator salaries, delivery costs, etc. have doubled as well. If it dropped to 25K units produced, those costs have quadrupled compared to 100K, etc. etc. This is definitely a significant part of the problem, and it's why I argue, again and again, the publishers need to get back into the indirect market, attracting a wider base of readers as well as lowering cover prices, all while boosting sales. But, of course, there are other factors as well. You've got the increased cost of publishing on higher quality glossy paper with higher quality inks (though Captain Jim used to point out that, when DC made the shift from newsprint to Baxter paper, the cost increase was minimal), the higher cost of paper in general, and (most importantly) writers and artists being paid a more equitable wage. That being said, Superman still only cost 75 cents an issue back in 1987 when they were paying John Byrne a small fortune to do the book, but I also know that health and retirement benefits take a lot more out of a company's bottom line than salaries. So, essentially, I agree with mrp, but I still doubt that would get us back down to $2 an issue.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2014 18:52:48 GMT -5
Newsprint is no longer a cheaper option. 1) It requires offset printing which a lot of print shops are no longer set up for in the digital age with new digital printing methods, so the few who do it charge more for that type of printing than regular digital printing now, and newsprint costs more than regular white paper now.
We're doing a coloring book for the Studio featuring some of our characters to have something to sell to parents/kids at cons in addition to our comics/prints. I wanted to do it old school on newsprint. The one print shop who said they could accommodate us would have done so by subcontracting the job out to a another print shop who still had an offset printer set up and the newsprint itself would have cost us twice as much per page as regular white (non-glossy) paper, so it was cost prohibitive to even do a newsprint book at all for us.
-M
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