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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 29, 2017 22:23:20 GMT -5
The Gruenwald maxi was fine; but, was kind of "mid-card" level of writing and art. It was entertaining enough but didn't really push the envelope, like Watchmen or other similar fare. Gruenwald just wasn't that edgy of a writer and when you compare the book to other things going on at that time, it seems like a weak attempt by Marvel to latch onto stuff that was going on at DC and some of the indies. I'm going to have to take a little issue here, not to pick on you, but I do hear comparisons between Squadron Supreme and Watchmen regularly. Of course Watchmen is the superior book, especially when it comes to the artwork. But the first issue of Squadron Supreme came out with a cover date of September, 1985, a full year before Watchmen #1, which had a cover date of September, 1986. While Squadron Supreme has certainly been overshadowed by some of the stuff DC did, it also anticipated where DC would later go. I think Squadron Supreme helped push the envelope in mainstream Big 2 comics and paved the way in a sense for other books that followed. Well, Watchmen began conception in 1985, when Alan Moore began developing the premise. However, he had already been doing similar work, in the UK, in Warrior (V for Vendetta and Marvelman) as well as 2000 AD and Marvel UK (Captain Britain). So, it's safe to say Squadron Supreme had minimal influence on Moore; rather, they were working on similar lines. The idea of superheroes actually trying to change things for the better wasn't that unique, as both companies had already dabbled in that, particularly at the end of the 60s and the dawn of the 70s, during the "relevancy" period. You can go farther back than that, with the social crusading of the early Superman stories, for one example. Also, many things that Moore did had been suggested in parodies in early Mad, as well as satirical novels, like Robert Mayer's SuperfolksThe difference is in the execution and the influence upon further works. Moore was definitely an iconoclast and someone who liked to shock and surprise and pushed further than the average. Gruenwald was a fan who found an in to professional comics via fanzines; but, never quite wanted to break the toys, just play his own games. Moore wanted to reconfigure and even break the toys. One of the reasons why Watchmen became iconic and Squadron Supreme became more of a discovered item lies in the environments at the two companies, in the period. At DC, Jenette Kahn had won the battle against entrenched old guard editors, who were churning out mediocre stuff. She encouraged editors to think beyond what had been done, mainly because they had nothing to lose. Sales had improved in the latter third of the 70s and she benefitted in an influx of talent from Marvel, from people who were having issues with management there. She also hired some fresh minds from outside, like Karen Berger, who then went looking for talent beyond normal sources. The work of people like Alan Moore and other regulars of 2000 AD caught their attention and they recruited them, particularly Moore. These guys came with that same punk spirit that infused 2000AD. Comics fans took notice and DC marketed it. They also sought attention beyond the normal fan press, which helped elevate their line and shine a massive spotlight on it. That, in turn inspired others to follow in the same footsteps. By contrast, Shooter's Marvel was spending more time improving the average of the company, without necessarily creating the new wave. Shooter focused on creating the same experience across the line, which served to elevate the lower tier and mid-tier titles, while maintaining momentum on the upper-tier titles. However, it didn't necessarily create the same breakout hits. Frank Miller's Daredevil had been the exception; but, Miller had moved on to DC, by this point, though he would stop back in, from time to time. Miller was another guys who wanted to fling some toys around. Others, like Simonson were tweaking old favorites, emphasizing the things they always liked, and adding a new twist. Byrne had been doing that on the FF, before defecting. Gruenwald did a bit of that, but never quite as forcefully as a Gerber or Engelhart. He seemed to have more of a reverence for things and seemed to want to work within the world established, rather than shake it up. However, Squadron Supreme does move a bit outside that box. Thing is, it is a logical extension of what Engelhart did with the group in Avengers and DeMatteis did in Defenders. Gruenwald just took it to the next step. Now, there are elements that were edgier than the norm at Marvel, such as the brainwashing of Lady Lark, by Golden Arrow; but, they had precedents in other Marvel books. Still, despite pushing further than most books, Squadron Supreme fell under most radars. It did respectable, but not spectacular. The difference is that Marvel treated it as just another Marvel title, while DC treated things like Swamp Thing and Watchmen as big deals. That did more to influence others. Squadron Supreme seems to have been discovered by more fans after the fact; particularly in the wake of Kingdom Come and Mark Gruenwald's death and the trade release, with his ashes mixed in. Gruenwald literally had to die for Marvel to realize what they had there. In my opinion, Squadron Supreme's impact didn't really begin to appear until the New Millennium, as the increased attention brought it to new fans. Watchmen had an immediate impact and a lasting one. Personally, I think if Gruenwald had conceived Squadron Supreme at DC, or Marvel of the earlier 70s, then he might have been encouraged to go even further than he did. It is a good series and there is a craft there. I don't think Marvel's printing quality helps it, as the art is a bit muddy in some issues. Also, Paul Ryan wasn't that developed as an artist, yet, compared to others. I tend to wonder what it could have been, with someone like Paul Smith involved, let alone someone more experienced, like Simonson. Gruenwald and Perez would have really been an interesting pairing on that material.
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Post by berkley on Aug 30, 2017 2:14:47 GMT -5
I was never much attracted to the Squadron mainly because I didn't particularly like the original group of characters they were based on but I agree that that Englehart/Perez Avengers story is a good one. However, even then I can imagine the same story being just as good without the Squadron.
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Post by Cei-U! on Aug 30, 2017 7:33:20 GMT -5
I was there for the introduction of the Squadron Sinister and enjoyed that and a handful of their later appearances but I'm not at all a fan of the Squadron Supreme, either the basic concept or the Mark Gruenwald/Bob Hall maxi-series. I found the gimmick forced and tiring when Roy Thomas introduced them in Avengers #85 and no subsequent appearance has changed my mind (though I did enjoy Kurt Busiek and George Perez's take on the team). As for the SS limited series, whatever good ideas Gruenwald might've had were not served well by their execution, particularly Hall's unexciting (and badly inked) art. In look and feel, it was just another mediocre Marvel series of the mid-80s. I only have the trade collection because I found it for a dollar at a convention.
Cei-U! I summon the JLA wannabes!
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Post by String on Aug 30, 2017 10:26:17 GMT -5
Still, despite pushing further than most books, Squadron Supreme fell under most radars. It did respectable, but not spectacular. The difference is that Marvel treated it as just another Marvel title, while DC treated things like Swamp Thing and Watchmen as big deals. That did more to influence others. That's a fair point I think. Promotion certainly influences perception. I don't recall much of any large promotion of the Supreme maxi-series at that time while DC's promotions for Watchmen at the time made it feel like you were witnessing something special and classic. I'm not sure how fanzines and comic news publications (like Amazing Heroes) covered each series back then but I would think that their reviews and opinions would also help contribute to any disparity between the two series as well.
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Post by berkley on Aug 30, 2017 10:34:28 GMT -5
Ever since I found out Gruenwald was the guy who came up with the name "Blackagar Boltagon" I've lost whatever little interest I might have had in anything he wrote - although it's possible I could at some point feel a morbid curiosity to see what other howlers he might have come up with.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 30, 2017 10:41:37 GMT -5
Ever since I found out Gruenwald was the guy who came up with the name " Blackagar Boltagon" I've lost whatever little interest I might have had in anything he wrote - although it's possible I could at some point feel a morbid curiosity to see what other howlers he might have come up with. That is almost certainly the most egregiously FANBOY thing any professional writer ever came up with. And that says a lot.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 30, 2017 10:58:00 GMT -5
Promotion is a big deal in entertainment, in all forms. Harry Potter was a hit with kids and was a big deal in the UK and had grown considerably in the US, by the third book. The release of the 4th book was where the media jumped onboard and Scholastic (the US publisher) went to town. It was the first time we, at Barnes & Noble, did a midnight release party (since I had joined the company, in 1993), and it was massive. We had been taking pre-orders for 6 months, with a modest list. The week leading up to the release was filled with news features and hype, and suddenly everyone wanted a copy.
In the 80s, Marvel was pushing MARVEL, focusing on the brand. It really wasn't that different from what Stan had done. By promoting the brand, they built a loyalty around the company, rather than one specific title or creative team. DC was doing that, as well (The New DC, for example); but, they also shined a bigger spotlight on their hits and their hot creative teams. They hyped the heck out of new projects. I read articles in my hometown newspaper about Crisis and Dark Knight. DC was definitely better at getting the word out on the street. That drew attention from places like Rolling Stone, which gave DC cache with other crowds. When you look at media articles relating to comics of that period (apart from the BIFF! POW! Comics Aren't for Kids Anymore! headlines), they are predominantly about DC projects and/or independent comics. Marvel still had the biggest slice of the market; but, they were lagging way behind on the marketing. It helped that DC had Warner's resources.
Promotion does color perception. Promotion gets people curious. That leads to articles about the hype and will the subject live up to expectations. That leads to analysis of the project when it comes out, which influences further consumption and future inspiration. Had Marvel pushed Squadron Supreme as being something groundbreaking, it probably would have got a lot more attention from at least the fan press (even the Comics Journal would have attacked it in a big critical article), possibly some mainstream, though it would also be a tough sell. The concept does take some explaining: an old pastiche of the competition's super-team, which were villains, but heroes in their parallel dimension, who decide to change the world for the better, except some think they don't have the right to interfere with mankind's destiny, even though all of their actions do so........... It's a bit of a harder sell than costumed vigilantes who act like real people, who investigate the murder of one of their own. It needs less explaining.
Where I started seeing people talk about it was in relation to Kingdom Come, with the Comicology Kingdom Come Companion (before it got pulled) and places like Wizard, where similar stories were discussed. Mark Gruenwald's death was the other, as people remembered his work and his wife talked about his wish to have his ashes mixed with the printing ink of a comic. That seemed to be when people really started to look at the maxi-series more closely. There had been a sequel graphic novel; but, the story was really kind of a come down, after the events of the maxi and it wasn't heavily promoted; so, it just seemed like another Marvel Graphic Novel (most of which were fairly average, in that period; rarely unique enough to warrant the format).
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Post by mikelmidnight on Aug 30, 2017 11:46:52 GMT -5
I liked the first 18 issues. When it switched to the Squadron I lost interest. I bought it in trade. I loved the first book, liked the second book, and thought the third was okay. When it switched names and went from the Icon to the Max line (or the other way around, whatever) it seemed like the logical place to bail.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2017 16:25:20 GMT -5
Weird & Horrible CostumesMarvel attempts to create their version of JLA ... Marvel UGLY ... the worst is Doctor Spectrum, Nuke, and Power Princess ... Honorable Mention goes to Amphibian and Whizzer. This is why I don't care about Squadron Supreme.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Sept 1, 2017 4:20:09 GMT -5
I'm not really seeing anything about those Squadron Supreme costumes that's any more or less weird or horrible than most superhero costumes in general. Most of them look pretty standard. And I've always kind of liked Dr. Spectrum's duds, or rather unitard.
As for the main discussion, I've liked most of the Squadron (Sinister and Supreme) stories I've read, but I think it's a concept that shouldn't be over-used. As for the maxi-series, it seems to me that after Gruenwald's death (as per Cody Starbuck's observations), it got a little overhyped in some corners of fandom as "Watchmen before Watchmen." It's not that, at all, but I found it to be a very solid, enjoyable and thought-provoking story. Didn't mind the art too much, either - in fact, given how it looks so mundane and (for lack of a better term) whitebread, it makes some of the darker episodes in the story all the more jarring.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2017 7:38:19 GMT -5
I'm not really seeing anything about those Squadron Supreme costumes that's any more or less weird or horrible than most superhero costumes in general. Most of them look pretty standard. And I've always kind of liked Dr. Spectrum's duds, or rather unitard. I see what you mean here and I've say this you made a compelling argument here about the costumes in Squadron Supreme.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Sept 1, 2017 8:26:23 GMT -5
Yeah, the Squadron Supreme really does come off as Roy Thomas' (who I generally love) ultimate fanboy moment. The problem with the Squadron in my eyes is that they are basically direct, non-satirical, JLA analog's. Characters like Quasar, Nova, Hawkeye, etc, while clearly inspired by Green Lantern and Green Arrow, were all very different characters, certainly as they evolved through the years.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Sept 1, 2017 11:38:14 GMT -5
If you read Englehart's Squadron story arc, they are definitely satirical, and it remains my favorite of all of them.
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