Roquefort Raider
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 31, 2017 8:32:35 GMT -5
Actor Ed Skrein has declined a role in the next Hellboy movie because his character, who is Asian in the comics, had been cast as a Caucasian in the film. Many people are now applauding this gesture as a selfless support for diversity in Hollywood. Chloe Bennett, of Agents of SHIELD fame, explained recently how changing her name from Wang to Bennett seemed to result in an almost immediate increase in work, thus supporting the idea that the general mind-set in the media is still pretty racist.
As a movie-goer, do you actually care what ethnic group actors belong to? I know our community represents a very small sample, but somehow I can't imagine that we care overmuch. Personally, I'd rather see comic-book characters depicted on screen as closely as possible as their paper and ink inspiration, but I don't lose sleep over the issue. I think Idris Alba is terrific as Heimdall, I thought the guy who played Jasper Sitwell was perfectly fine, I much prefer the Al Mackenzie we have on TV to the one from the comics, and having Samuel Jackson play Nick Fury is so cool that the movie version eventually replaced the comic-book one. Sure, a few fans are annoyed sometimes (I saw someone complain that Jason Momoa didn't have blue eyes, thus making him unsuitable to play Conan... of all the things to complain about with that movie!) but overall the race card doesn't seem to be that important in general. Or is that only among comics fans? Does the general public really care about whether actors are WASPs or otherwise?
Is Hollywood truly racist? Or is it counting beans and evaluating how much more money can be made by casting a role according to certain demographics? Naturally things will vary from production to production and studio to studio, but it would strike me as a pretty counterproductive move to keep good actors away because their family name is not Smith or because they don't look Anglo-Saxon.
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Post by Warmonger on Aug 31, 2017 8:56:25 GMT -5
Really depends
I don't mind Jackson as Fury because he's so great in the role, but on the other end of the spectrum I remember when the internet was in a tizzy over a white guy like Finn Jones being cast as Iron Fist, despite Danny Rand always being white in the comics. If anything I'd say the people crusading against it were being "racist" by suggesting that only someone of Asian descent can be a martial artist.
Finn Jones sucks in the role because his acting skills are mediocre at best and he barely bothered to learn a form of martial arts at even the most amateur level, despite portraying a kung fu master. Not because he's white.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 31, 2017 9:14:31 GMT -5
Really depends I don't mind Jackson as Fury because he's so great in the role, but on the other end of the spectrum I remember when the internet was in a tizzy over a white guy like Finn Jones being cast as Iron Fist, despite Danny Rand always being white in the comics. If anything I'd say the people crusading against it were being "racist" by suggesting that only someone of Asian descent can be a martial artist. I agree with that... and in this as well as other instances, I think that sometimes people who believe they are fighting racism are actually reinforcing it. "Only people from this background should do, say or deal with this"... it's bizarre. I just can't get my head around the principle of "cultural appropriation", for example. I would have thought that in a truly open society, we'd all adopt aspects of each other's culture and all become richer for it. I can understand how someone would say "this is not real Vietnamese bánh mìs", but then neither is this real mayonnaise, real Italian pizza, real ninjutsu, real medieval sword fighting, real football... and in fact, this cinema character is not the "real" Thor! It is absurd to be upset each time someone adapts something from one sphere of existence to another and fails to convey every single aspect of its original reality. I mean, people who were in the army worked their ass off to deserve the right to be called "soldier". Do they lose it when people dress up as soldiers at Halloween? Do martial artists get upset when people go to comicons disguised as ninjas and samurai? It's not usurpation, it's adaptation. Which I think should be fine. Agreed. He had the face for Danny Rand but not much else. We needed someone with Donnie Yen's level of skill for that role!
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 31, 2017 10:07:41 GMT -5
We are getting into a tricky area. It's a matter of perspective. Criticisms from minority groups come into Hollywood casting because of a long, sustained history of the portrayal and complete absence of their race or ethnic group in film and television. I can understand an Asian being ticked off about yet another white martial arts aster, who learned in the "mysterious" East, as it perpetuates a stereotype that the white men were superior. In this case, the white Danny Rand was superior to every other contender in Kun-Lun. It fed into a long literary tradition of superior white guys bringing the secrets of the mystical East to the Western world. When Asians were represented in these stories, it was either as sadistic villains or servants; never as equals and rarely as noble people who achieve on their own.
The problem with comic book characters is that many were built around these stereotypes, so when you adapt it for film and tv, you face the issue of how to handle it. Do you just use the name and create a new, better character or do you lose the character? Do you cast the best actor or do you cast solely on ethnic lines? Hollywood is more about look than talent, at the best of times and that will always trump the best actor. So much political thought goes into casting, trying to attach "names" to help sell the project.
Comic fans want to see the characters as on the page, though some segments are willing to accept change as long as the actor and the character are good. Some never accept change. The rest of the audience has probably never seen the comic and doesn't care, so long as they are entertained. Some of the crusading types are just looking for attention to their cause and will latch onto these things to get the spotlight on their thesis. In the case of Iron Fist, casting a white man is not "whitewashing" the character; but, it does continue perpetuating the stereotype around which the character was built. Casting an Asian doesn't necessarily change the problem, as now you have a stereotypical Asian martial arts hero. However, casting is only one element and the characterization is where you break the stereotype. As with Idris Elba, a good performance quickly quiets the opposition.
I don't mind Samuel L Jackson as Nick Fury; but, I still would have liked to have seen my Nick Fury done well, instead of cheesy, with David Hasselhoff. George Clooney was eyeing the project, until he saw the Garth Ennis material and washed his hands of it. Too bad, as he would have been a great Steranko Nick Fury. With Jackson, my only concern was if they were going to show him in WW2. The question was whether they would depict the segregation of the military or present a fantasy version where race isn't a factor. As it turned out, they kept Fury out of it, though they had Gabe. They pretty much ignored the reality of the war completely,as they fight HYDRA, rather than the wehrmacht and SS, so pretty much anything goes. AS a history buff, it kind of irks me; but, the film works well enough that it is a minor irritation.
I don't mind Hollywood trying to put more diverse casts together, if the roles don't require a specific ethnicity. If the character is a accountant, race isn't really a factor, unless your story involves overcoming prejudices or is a biographical piece. If your story is about Ghengis Khan, then don't cast John Wayne. The problem lies when you cast actors because of ethnicity and their characters basically serve as tokens, rather than well rounded figures. Comics in recent years have been guilty of it, as ethnic characters have been inserted, without ever developing them. Cyborg worked in the Teen Titans but hasn't in the Justice League, more due to characterization than anything else. Black Lightning was a better character to use, but he is mired in office politics (or was, then).
Hollywood's problem is less race than it is a focus on appearance, in all forms. It goes beyond race and gender, into focusing on a specific look, no matter how unrealistic that is. Until they move beyond that, they will never have balanced, realistic productions.
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Post by The Captain on Aug 31, 2017 11:37:12 GMT -5
I wrote this in another thread here at one point, but I'm too lazy to look it up, but it went something like this:
"If you tell hardcore comic book fans not to complain about Heimdall being black because 'he's just a comic book movie character', then don't complain about whitewashing because they cast The Ancient One as an androgynous Caucasian woman."
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Roquefort Raider
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 31, 2017 12:40:58 GMT -5
I wrote this in another thread here at one point, but I'm too lazy to look it up, but it went something like this: "If you tell hardcore comic book fans not to complain about Heimdall being black because 'he's just a comic book movie character', then don't complain about whitewashing because they cast The Ancient One as an androgynous Caucasian woman." Especially since in the very same movie the PTB didn't cast Mordo as a Caucasian, as he is in the comic! It looks like what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander. (And no, I'm not calling Swinton a goose or anything ). I liked the way both characters were depicted in the movie. Who cares what colour Mordo is, to begin with? Ejiofor did a great job with him, and that's all I ask. Having the Ancient One be a woman was an unexpected and interesting idea; especially one that doesn't seem to age. That's precisely the type of change I'm quite happy to see in an adaptation. The "don't make this character white" argument would carry more weight, I think, if instead of shouting "whitewashing!" in an outraged fashion, the people who don't like to see Skrein play an Asian comic-book character simply said "we need more characters who aren't Caucasian, and turning a non-Caucasian character into one is not helping". It's not inflammatory, but I think it's more likely to generate an appropriate response than invoking some kind of pro-Caucasian semi-conspiracy.
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Post by Randle-El on Aug 31, 2017 16:10:31 GMT -5
As an Asian-American, I'd like to offer my perspective.
Growing up, I loved Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, the X-Men, Star Wars, Star Trek, He-Man, GI Joe, etc. And with the exception of a handful of token characters, all of those properties featured mostly white characters, especially for the main hero characters. As a kid, I don't think I really noticed anything wrong with that because, well, pretty much everyone else around me was white too. Of course the cool people you were supposed to look up to were white -- everyone else was white. And I don't think any of that was racist or malicious in any way. It was just the way things were. But one of the most important things to kids is feeling like you fit in. And in that respect, being a little Asian kid in a white world where all the cool people are white... while not intentional, can definitely make you feel like you don't belong, or that you don't matter.
So from this perspective, I generally appreciate the desire from Hollywood and comic book publishers to be more diverse. I don't think it's a silver bullet for the problem of racism or ignorance, but I am glad for the fact that my kids will grow up in an America where they will feel a little less like an outsider than I was made to feel. I won't lie -- there were parts of my childhood where I wished I was white because all the cool people were white. But now there are Asian-American film and TV stars, Asian-American pro athletes, Asian-American comic book writers and artists, and Asian-American superheroes. I am thankful that my kids can look at all these folks and be reassured that you don't have to be white to fit in or be considered praiseworthy.
With that said, I do think that some of the activists can be a little aggressive in their accusations of whitewashing. Like with Iron Fist or the Ancient One from Doctor Strange -- honestly, the creators were kinda screwed either way. Don't cast an Asian and people accuse you of whitewashing. Cast an Asian and people accuse you of feeding into stereotypes of the Asian martial arts hero or the exotic spiritual guru. On the other hand, the casting of Emma Stone to play a Hawaiian character named Allison Ng was pretty bad, and the casting of Scarlett Johansson in "Ghost in the Shell" was just a trainwreck in all aspects.
Another thing you have to understand about Asian Americans is that, due to language barriers and other cultural issues, we have long been perceived as being passive and apolitical. While African American have a long history of organized activism, most Asian American immigrants didn't want to make a fuss. They were too busy running their small businesses, and wanted to be seen as hardworking contributors to society instead of troublemakers. A lot of things that marginalized Asian Americans didn't get called out. But things are different now with second and third generation Asian Americans. We are native English speakers and we understand the political system better than our elders. We have the means to challenge ignorance that they didn't. Maybe we're overly aggressive at times because as kids we watched while our parents were marginalized and they quietly accepted it so that we would have a chance to do better. I think being more civil and less strident is generally more constructive. But I definitely understand why Asian Americans react so strongly. We want America to know that we are here, that we do matter, and that we will speak up.
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Post by sabongero on Aug 31, 2017 16:38:03 GMT -5
Is that the same Ed Skrein that left the Game of Throwns tv show a few years ago because of internal politics, and they had to change actors for his role in the following season? I say let him play it (the Japanese-American character). They had Will Smith play a white guy's character in the Wild Wild West, and other white/caucasian characters played by black people and other races (i.e. Wally West and Iris West for example).
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Post by thwhtguardian on Aug 31, 2017 17:49:19 GMT -5
Is that the same Ed Skrein that left the Game of Throwns tv show a few years ago because of internal politics, and they had to change actors for his role in the following season? I say let him play it (the Japanese-American character). They had Will Smith play a white guy's character in the Wild Wild West, and other white/caucasian characters played by black people and other races (i.e. Wally West and Iris West for example). The way I see it is this line of reasoning just doesn't make any sense as there isn't an equal opportunity. For white actors there are far more roles available to them based upon their skin color being the "default" so if a black/asian/latino actor gets a role as a character that may be traditionally thought to be white it's not a huge deal as there are still plenty of other opportunities out there for white actors. However, that's not the case when you reverse the situation as there are far fewer roles that are specifically black, asian or latino so when you cast a white actor in one of those roles there are now fewer opportunities available. If you're a white actor and you missed out on the role of Nick Fury to Sam Jackson you could also go out for Hawk Eye, Captain America, Bruce Banner, Thor, Superman, Batman, Wolverine Spider-Man and so on and you could make it on the call list just because your skin color is the default. But if you're Asian and you miss out on a character like Ben Daimio to a white actor there aren't nearly as many other leading roles available based just on your physical description.
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Post by batusi on Aug 31, 2017 19:56:57 GMT -5
If the character introduced in the comic book is white OR black (or another) then that is the ethnicity that should be portrayed in the movie/tv series. I just don't like it when they change an established characters race just to fit some politically correct racially balanced ideology. I would be the first to be upset if they had Black Panther or Storm portrayed by white actors. It seems though that whenever an established white character is newly portrayed by a black actor (like Johnny Storm) that if you yourself are white and complain then you ARE a racist! People are always saying that it just doesn't matter, but if that is the case then just leave well enough alone??
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Aug 31, 2017 21:24:36 GMT -5
If the character introduced in the comic book is white OR black (or another) then that is the ethnicity that should be portrayed in the movie/tv series. I just don't like it when they change an established characters race just to fit some politically correct racially balanced ideology. I would be the first to be upset if they had Black Panther or Storm portrayed by white actors. It seems though that whenever an established white character is newly portrayed by a black actor (like Johnny Storm) that if you yourself are white and complain then you ARE a racist! People are always saying that it just doesn't matter, but if that is the case then just leave well enough alone?? Counterpoint: The skill of the actor at portraying the spirit of the roll should be more important than race. The greater fidelity to the source material the smaller the pool of potential actors and, therefore, the worse the resulting movie/tv show is going to be.
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Post by Randle-El on Aug 31, 2017 22:48:18 GMT -5
If the character introduced in the comic book is white OR black (or another) then that is the ethnicity that should be portrayed in the movie/tv series. I just don't like it when they change an established characters race just to fit some politically correct racially balanced ideology. I would be the first to be upset if they had Black Panther or Storm portrayed by white actors. It seems though that whenever an established white character is newly portrayed by a black actor (like Johnny Storm) that if you yourself are white and complain then you ARE a racist! People are always saying that it just doesn't matter, but if that is the case then just leave well enough alone?? Counterpoint: The skill of the actor at portraying the spirit of the roll should be more important than race. The greater fidelity to the source material the smaller the pool of potential actors and, therefore, the worse the resulting movie/tv show is going to be. Additional counterpoint: For some, even many, characters, their white ethnicity has little to no bearing on their character. They are white by default. It would be absurd to have a white person play Black Panther or Storm because their ethnicity is a significant part of their character and backstory. There's nothing about Perry White or Nick Fury that requires them to be white. In fact, there are some instances where it's more realistic that the character NOT be white. Peter Parker? Based on the demographics of modern Queens NY, he's more likely to be Hispanic, Asian, or black than white. If he lived in Flushing, chances are high that he'd be Chinese or Korean.
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Post by Warmonger on Aug 31, 2017 22:51:47 GMT -5
If the character introduced in the comic book is white OR black (or another) then that is the ethnicity that should be portrayed in the movie/tv series. I just don't like it when they change an established characters race just to fit some politically correct racially balanced ideology. I would be the first to be upset if they had Black Panther or Storm portrayed by white actors. It seems though that whenever an established white character is newly portrayed by a black actor (like Johnny Storm) that if you yourself are white and complain then you ARE a racist! People are always saying that it just doesn't matter, but if that is the case then just leave well enough alone?? Counterpoint: The skill of the actor at portraying the spirit of the roll should be more important than race. The greater fidelity to the source material the smaller the pool of potential actors and, therefore, the worse the resulting movie/tv show is going to be. I disagree to a certain extent To batusi's point, casting Michael B. Jordan as Johnny Storm in the newest, most craptastic film iteration of the FF film franchise is maybe the prime example of diversity simply for the sake of diversity in comic book films. I'm not buying for a single second that Jordan was cast simply because he was the best actor for the role. Even putting movies to the side for a bit, Marvel is hands down the biggest offender on this front, even just in the relation to comics. What was the use of making Riri Williams the next Iron Man besides the sake of diversity? Why not make her Tony Stark's brilliant protege and call her something like 'Iron Maiden' instead? Even slowly, eventually introducing her as the next Iron Man over a period of years instead of throwing it at you front, right and center from the get-go? I think most would've been fine with that. What was the use in casting Bruce Banner to the side in favor of Amadeus Cho as the Hulk? Diversity simply for the sake of diversity. Which I really don't get. Bringing more minority characters on board is something that I'm totally on board with and completely support...but why essentially wipe out decades worth of continuity as is pertains to established characters in order to do so? These are fictional worlds populated by superpowered beings. The possibilities for new characters are virtually endless. So why take the hacky, slapped-on approach instead of doing something somewhat original? Hell, there are plenty of existing minority characters that I would love to see new interpretations of in film and on TV. I would love to see a guy like Blade incorporated into the Netflix MCU and get his own series. Ditto for someone like Misty Knight or Shang-Chi. But making changes simply for the sake of diversity has always been something I'm against.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 1, 2017 12:20:02 GMT -5
Neither about comic-book movies nor ethnicity, but since this does touch on the subject of diversity... A reboot of the film adaptation of Lord of the flies is being considered, with the twist that instead of an all-boy cast, the new version will have an all-girl one. I like the idea, and think that the arguments from the nay-sayers ("women would never act like that" and "this story is all about male toxicity") are nonsensical. It will even be interesting to see how the writers intend to show the reactions and interactions of a group of girls instead of that of a group of boys. The competition and violence will probably be of a different nature, but has no reason to be any less real.
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Post by Jesse on Sept 1, 2017 14:41:44 GMT -5
While there is a child-like nostalgic part of me that likes seeing the live action characters look like they walked off the page I'm more concerned about the quality of the production than anything else. That being said representation is a hugely important thing for people that have had virtually none during the entire existence of the modern entertainment industry. Basically "If you see it, you can be it" which is why the impact of shows like The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air or Fresh Off the Boat is important for so many people. They can look at the screen and think "just like me" or "I could do that" in a positive way that they couldn't necessarily do before.
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