shaxper
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Posts: 22,878
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Post by shaxper on Sept 6, 2017 9:28:32 GMT -5
His response was something akin to: "If you thought they were shooting a porn, they were shooting a porn. If you thought they weren't, they weren't." What's the inside scoop on this infamous cover? I've never read it, seen the cover countless times, and heard nothing but revulsion regarding it's contents. Full reviews of Part 1 and Part 2
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Post by Nowhere Man on Sept 6, 2017 9:34:24 GMT -5
Legend has it that the Barda Superman issue was Byrne taking a shot at Kirby, rather personally, seeing as how Jack modeled Barda in part after his wife. My theory is that Byrne did this as retaliation for the Destroyer Duck parody that Jack was involved in. Say what you will about Byrne, but he's always been a huge Kirby fan, so I could easily see how such a personal attack by one of his heroes would injure his fanboy pride.
I remember liking Byrne's Superman the first time I read it, but this was long before I grew to appreciate, and even prefer, most aspects of the Pre-Crisis DC Universe.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Sept 6, 2017 9:56:56 GMT -5
I don't want to get to personal here (particularly since I'm a Byrne fan...at least Byrne circa 1975-1990) but the subject of Byrne's "mean-spirit" got me thinking about his work and my interactions with him over the years. I was at one time a member of the Byrne forum (actually, I was a member of the older forum that predated this) dating from its inception in 2004. For the most part I felt Byrne was usually on point with his opinions when it came to comics, but his increasingly bizarre and contrarian views on creators rights and politics gradually lead to me voicing my disagreement and getting banned. The final straw was his strange irritation at the fact that Kirby's family and Marvel had finally come to an amicable financial agreement.
By taking a hard-line "it was work for hire" stance, Byrne seemed to think that he deserved some sort of praise for being objective and pragmatic in the face of overwhelming sentiment, even taking into account the decades long injustice of the Kirby/Marvel situation. The fact that he benefited from a royalty deal that found its roots in the examples of the mistreatment of Siegel/Shuster and Kirby seemed either lost on him or beside the point. I made a comment that it was almost as if Byrne (and a few others on that forum) where suffering from a collective Stockholm Syndrome when it came to the business side of Marvel and DC. Sure, they despised the creative direction of the Quesada era (a sentiment I generally agree with) but that's where it began and ended for them.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Sept 6, 2017 10:23:28 GMT -5
What's the inside scoop on this infamous cover? I've never read it, seen the cover countless times, and heard nothing but revulsion regarding it's contents. Full reviews of Part 1 and Part 2 Yikes! : -/ I agree shax, wtf was the comic code on those two issues? Wow. I mean I have no problem with people writing what they want but if pre-code horror comics were going to turn kids into killers, what's this issue NOT going to do that to kids/young people that warranted getting a stamp of approval? Yet a year later the comic code wont stamp The Killing Joke for approval? Weird.
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Post by String on Sept 6, 2017 11:33:56 GMT -5
Some folks love this story, and I do not understand why. I'll tell you exactly why I love it. For starters, this isn't about Lex Luthor the 'master criminal' or even the 'mad scientist'. This is Lex Luthor the One-Percenter, the billionaire. He's got the Money, the Power, the Influence and the Ego. He apparently salves that ego by playing occasional mind games with regular people, in this case by offering Jenny the waitress an indecent proposal. He's testing the moral fortitude and fiber of these people through such offers. If they refuse, as he said at the end of the story, the doubt over what-may-have-been will linger and haunt these people for the rest of their lives. If they should accept, then he knows that he has someone with whom he can manipulate/corrupt further over that month till the point of would they even want to go back to their former homes and lives when all is said and done? Either way, it's a win-win for him and bolsters the image of his ego and his own importance. As for Jenny, she's symbolic of rural small-town America. Growing up in the shadow of the big city, she had a good popular childhood but then real life sets in. Get married, get a job, get a house with a mortgage, have kids. There's nothing wrong with that life but it's the unrealized dreams and potential of youth that Luthor preys upon with these choices. You can do quite a bit with a million dollars, all you have to do to get it is make a moral sacrifice for one month. Would she have done it? Bryne hints that yes, perhaps after listening to her co-workers about what they would do and then calling and hanging up on her husband at his work. But we don't know since finding out Luthor left takes away from any choice she would have made. Does she regret it? Or should we feel glad that she didn't fall prey to his tactic? It's callous, manipulative and sad and speaks to some truths about the human condition and the compromises of life. I also think it's a great sampling of Luthor's pride and egotism.
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Post by String on Sept 6, 2017 11:38:26 GMT -5
I hate that nearly 60 some years after acquiring him, DC still struggles to merge the innocence, charm and fun of Captain Marvel/Shazam into their overall universe. Say what you will about the need for Crisis but at least Earth-S gave the Captain a good home to continue those type of fund adventures. I hate new #1s. It's a cheap sales gimmick, only providing brief bumps in sales. If fans didn't buy them in higher quantities publishers wouldn't put them out. If you don't like them, aim your ire at the fans who give postive reinformcement for these practices by voting with their wallets for more of this type of stuff. Comic fans get the comics their buying habits deserve. -M It takes two to tango and publishers are just as much at fault for enabling this vicious cycle as fanboys. There's no concrete law saying they have to release new #1s but knowing the fans will buy them, they settle for the short-term sales gains instead of planning long-term. Rinse and repeat.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Sept 6, 2017 11:53:28 GMT -5
If fans didn't buy them in higher quantities publishers wouldn't put them out. If you don't like them, aim your ire at the fans who give postive reinformcement for these practices by voting with their wallets for more of this type of stuff. Comic fans get the comics their buying habits deserve. -M It takes two to tango and publishers are just as much at fault for enabling this vicious cycle as fanboys. There's no concrete law saying they have to release new #1s but knowing the fans will buy them, they settle for the short-term sales gains instead of planning long-term. Rinse and repeat. Yeah...they should just let the sales tank and hear the shareholders howl instead of giving the fans what the sales prove they want. There actually is a concrete law saying exactly that. It's law of supply and demand. Fans vote with their dollars. And they consistently vote for new number ones and repeats of the same stuff they've been reading for 20, 30, 40, 50 years.
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Post by badwolf on Sept 6, 2017 12:20:19 GMT -5
Some folks love this story, and I do not understand why. I'll tell you exactly why I love it. For starters, this isn't about Lex Luthor the 'master criminal' or even the 'mad scientist'. This is Lex Luthor the One-Percenter, the billionaire. He's got the Money, the Power, the Influence and the Ego. He apparently salves that ego by playing occasional mind games with regular people, in this case by offering Jenny the waitress an indecent proposal. He's testing the moral fortitude and fiber of these people through such offers. If they refuse, as he said at the end of the story, the doubt over what-may-have-been will linger and haunt these people for the rest of their lives. If they should accept, then he knows that he has someone with whom he can manipulate/corrupt further over that month till the point of would they even want to go back to their former homes and lives when all is said and done? Either way, it's a win-win for him and bolsters the image of his ego and his own importance. As for Jenny, she's symbolic of rural small-town America. Growing up in the shadow of the big city, she had a good popular childhood but then real life sets in. Get married, get a job, get a house with a mortgage, have kids. There's nothing wrong with that life but it's the unrealized dreams and potential of youth that Luthor preys upon with these choices. You can do quite a bit with a million dollars, all you have to do to get it is make a moral sacrifice for one month. Would she have done it? Bryne hints that yes, perhaps after listening to her co-workers about what they would do and then calling and hanging up on her husband at his work. But we don't know since finding out Luthor left takes away from any choice she would have made. Does she regret it? Or should we feel glad that she didn't fall prey to his tactic? It's callous, manipulative and sad and speaks to some truths about the human condition and the compromises of life. I also think it's a great sampling of Luthor's pride and egotism. Great analysis! I always loved this story too, for the same reasons (though you put it better than I ever could have.)
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,878
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Post by shaxper on Sept 6, 2017 13:13:45 GMT -5
Some folks love this story, and I do not understand why. I'll tell you exactly why I love it. For starters, this isn't about Lex Luthor the 'master criminal' or even the 'mad scientist'. This is Lex Luthor the One-Percenter, the billionaire. He's got the Money, the Power, the Influence and the Ego. He apparently salves that ego by playing occasional mind games with regular people, in this case by offering Jenny the waitress an indecent proposal. He's testing the moral fortitude and fiber of these people through such offers. If they refuse, as he said at the end of the story, the doubt over what-may-have-been will linger and haunt these people for the rest of their lives. If they should accept, then he knows that he has someone with whom he can manipulate/corrupt further over that month till the point of would they even want to go back to their former homes and lives when all is said and done? Either way, it's a win-win for him and bolsters the image of his ego and his own importance. As for Jenny, she's symbolic of rural small-town America. Growing up in the shadow of the big city, she had a good popular childhood but then real life sets in. Get married, get a job, get a house with a mortgage, have kids. There's nothing wrong with that life but it's the unrealized dreams and potential of youth that Luthor preys upon with these choices. You can do quite a bit with a million dollars, all you have to do to get it is make a moral sacrifice for one month. Would she have done it? Bryne hints that yes, perhaps after listening to her co-workers about what they would do and then calling and hanging up on her husband at his work. But we don't know since finding out Luthor left takes away from any choice she would have made. Does she regret it? Or should we feel glad that she didn't fall prey to his tactic? It's callous, manipulative and sad and speaks to some truths about the human condition and the compromises of life. I also think it's a great sampling of Luthor's pride and egotism. Great analysis. I agree that, on a symbolic level, it works, but where I struggle with the story is on a literal level -- that Luthor would actually take the time and energy to do this. Here's what I wrote about this story in my Superman in the Post-Crisis review thread: The Post-Crisis Luthor, as written by pretty much anyone other than Byrne has tremendous shades of gray. After all, he was the best thing that ever happened to Metropolis until Superman came along and (hurting a few people who get in his way aside) arguably still is after. He's not a villain looking to destroy every life he touches and seeking out new ways to corrupt innocence; he's a man looking out for himself and seeking ways to expand his power base. A more convincing Luthor story would be one where the same waitress is being murdered outside his limo, and Lex keeps on driving. Her life should be of no concern to him, as it in no way affects his quest for more power and success.
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Post by The Cheat on Sept 6, 2017 14:56:29 GMT -5
Great analysis. I agree that, on a symbolic level, it works, but where I struggle with the story is on a literal level -- that Luthor would actually take the time and energy to do this. Here's what I wrote about this story in my Superman in the Post-Crisis review thread: I may be misremembering, but wasn't Lex just killing time while waiting for his car to be repaired or something similar? It wasn't like a hobby that he regularly went out and did on his lunch hour.
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Post by chadwilliam on Sept 6, 2017 19:17:40 GMT -5
Aw, come on. Byrne was gone by '88 and some truly quality work followed. Jurgens, Ordway, Stern, Carlin, and (to a lesser extent) Perez made a masterpiece out of the disjointed garbage Byrne left behind. I'm not saying you can't tell decent stories with Byrne's template, but with the core of the character gutted, it simply isn't Superman.
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,878
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Post by shaxper on Sept 6, 2017 19:23:21 GMT -5
Great analysis. I agree that, on a symbolic level, it works, but where I struggle with the story is on a literal level -- that Luthor would actually take the time and energy to do this. Here's what I wrote about this story in my Superman in the Post-Crisis review thread: I may be misremembering, but wasn't Lex just killing time while waiting for his car to be repaired or something similar? It wasn't like a hobby that he regularly went out and did on his lunch hour. I honestly don't recall. Even still, the idea that he'd see value in tormenting someone like this still supports what I'm saying. The character, as written by anyone else, isn't evil for the sake of being evil; he's the greed and lust for power that often accompanies the American Dream realized. Neither greed nor power can be gained by screwing with this woman's life. It's just a depraved ego boost, akin to frying ants with a magnifying glass.
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Post by chadwilliam on Sept 6, 2017 19:25:07 GMT -5
Great analysis. I agree that, on a symbolic level, it works, but where I struggle with the story is on a literal level -- that Luthor would actually take the time and energy to do this. Here's what I wrote about this story in my Superman in the Post-Crisis review thread: I may be misremembering, but wasn't Lex just killing time while waiting for his car to be repaired or something similar? It wasn't like a hobby that he regularly went out and did on his lunch hour. Actually, it was a hobby. I believe his chauffeur remarked something along the lines of "I'm surprised you bothered to wait the full ten minutes this time, boss" to which Luthor responded something like "This one required more finesse than the ones I've played this game with before."
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,878
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Post by shaxper on Sept 6, 2017 19:26:19 GMT -5
Aw, come on. Byrne was gone by '88 and some truly quality work followed. Jurgens, Ordway, Stern, Carlin, and (to a lesser extent) Perez made a masterpiece out of the disjointed garbage Byrne left behind. I'm not saying you can't tell decent stories with Byrne's template, but with the core of the character gutted, it simply isn't Superman. I think Perez worked very hard to bring back the core of who Superman was, and after he left, the rest of the team stuck with that.
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Post by chadwilliam on Sept 6, 2017 19:48:35 GMT -5
Alright I'm going to pick at this scab just a little more... Brainiac Pre-Byrne Brainiac once John Byrne got a hold of him Byrne has related that when he was first introduced to Brainiac he thought the character's name was 'Branec'. Once he realized his mistake, he lost interest since he felt 'Brainiac' was silly. Once again, we lose a perfectly great element of the Superman saga because of yet something else Byrne didn't like about the character. This isn't a guy embracing Superman's history and picking out the best elements to showcase in his take on the guy - this is Byrne making a list of everything he can half remember about Superman and thinking, "That's stupid, that's stupid, that's stupid..."
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