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Post by dbutler69 on Oct 18, 2017 11:24:06 GMT -5
The whole "heroes bickering" shtick has been a Stan Lee trademark since way back in 1941 when 17-year-old Stanley Lieber broke into the business writing text stories. He owes that to nobody. Try the first five issues of the '68 Silver Surfer series. Probably the best writing he ever did (though unquestionably inspired by the delectable illustrations of John Buscema). Cei-U! I summon The Man! Except that was hardly a unique trait, in literature. The pulps were filled with it, especially Doc Savage, where Ham and Monk would go at it constantly. Like any writer, Stan is a product of his time and the writers he devoured and he was definitely a fan of the pulps (as he said he was a fan of The Spider, resulting in using the name for Spider-Man). Well, if you look at it like that, everybody has borrowed from somewhere and nobody has a completely original idea unaffected by outside inspiration which, come to think of it, is probably true. There's some kind of saying that there are only seven (I may have the number wrong, but you get the idea) original stories and every other story since then (novel, movie, ect.) is just a variation on those seven original ideas. |
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Post by dbutler69 on Oct 18, 2017 11:28:45 GMT -5
He's both. Come on, he practically wrote everything Marvel did from 1961-1968 or so, including some comics you might have heard of, such as the Fantastic Four and The Amazing Spider-Man. I know that Stan bashing has become fashionable and people love to say that it was all Kirby and Ditko and that Stan was just riding their coattails, but I think that's absolute nonsense. Having said that, he was definitely a master marketer and also opportunistic, but you can be that and be a good and very successful writer. I completely agree you can be both. But here's the thing...almost everything I have seen associated with him (and it's not much) has actually been someone else's that he adopted. What can I read that was 100% his? And I am not Stan bashing in the slightest. He has many strengths. I'm not sure I follow you. What do you mean that everything he's done has been somebody else's? |
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Post by Outrajs on Oct 18, 2017 11:30:00 GMT -5
The whole "heroes bickering" shtick has been a Stan Lee trademark since way back in 1941 when 17-year-old Stanley Lieber broke into the business writing text stories. He owes that to nobody. Try the first five issues of the '68 Silver Surfer series. Probably the best writing he ever did (though unquestionably inspired by the delectable illustrations of John Buscema). Cei-U! I summon The Man! Superheroes bickering? |
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Post by chadwilliam on Oct 18, 2017 12:02:18 GMT -5
I'm curious as to when the Marvel Method would take effect during a title's run. I would imagine that if Lee really wants to sell a new idea - whether it be The Fantastic Four in 1961, Spider-Man in 62/63, Daredevil in 64, whatever - he would be far less inclined to hand the scripting of those earlier concepts over to an artist than he would once the series has become a hit. He freely admitted that on many occasions, his contribution would be simply to ask Kirby to have "The Fantastic Four fight Dr Doom in this issue" and that would be it (one of the many reasons why I'm skeptical of claims that Lee stole credit for others work) but I really don't see him taking such a back seat approach during those crucial early issues.
Other thoughts:
Lee seemed to have promoted others about as much as he did himself. Sure he was Stan "The Man" Lee, but he also saw to it that his name was alongside Jack "The King" Kirby (whose name was next to the colorist, letterer, etc).
Which isn't to say some of his artists didn't have their own grievances with him. Steve Ditko felt he should have gotten co-plotting credit rather than just artistic credit. He expressed his dissatisfaction with Lee who immediately gave him what he wanted. As said, Lee seemed to be pretty open about how things worked. His Soapbox always seemed to be "Steve and I are bringing you a yarn next month which'll..." or "Jack and I have decided to get Dr Doom up from off those laurels of his and hoo boy, wait'll you see what Jack's come up with for..."
There has been issues between him and Ditko, with Lee stating that he truly believes that he alone created Spider-Man (while admitting that, yes, Ditko came up with everything he's said he did) but even this doesn't feel like deceit on his part, but an honest belief that "the guy who comes up with the initial idea is the creator in spite of what follows". Now I personally, believe that Ditko's contributions make him Spider-Man's co-creator, I can't really fault Lee's reasoning.
For all the talk of Stan Lee handing off work to his artists, you can still see a through line connecting certain uniquely Lee traits across titles in which he was the only common denominator. Spider-Man's humour isn't all that removed from early Daredevil for instance and J Jonah Jameson's grouch you love to love isn't a million miles apart from The Thing. Those O Henry twists as well carry over from one title to the next. Reed Richards may be a hero, but that doesn't change the fact that his recklessness turned Ben Grimm into a monster; Spider-Man might have learned about great power and responsibility, but that doesn't change the fact that his selfishness resulted in his Uncle's death.
Lee and Kirby have been called The Lennon/McCartney of comics and I think that just as a lot of people unfairly ignored Paul's efforts once John died, so too has too has the same been done to Lee.
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Post by Rob Allen on Oct 18, 2017 13:36:19 GMT -5
In the course of my research, I've learned that the earliest known use of the "Marvel method" in comic books was in the Fox titles edited by Abner Sundall in 1941-42. Sundall bought plot outlines, gave them to artists who made most of the storytelling decisions, then gave the penciled pages to the writer to dialogue. Cei-U! That's the facts, Jack! It's "Sundell", isn't it? Did the same writer usually do the plot and the dialogue? From what I've read, my impression is that the "Marvel Method" developed organically in the early 60s, when Stan started working directly with Kirby instead of having Larry Lieber write up a script first. Stan knew what Kirby had done in his career, so if Stan hadn't written the next script at the point when Kirby was ready to start drawing it, he could just go over the story with Jack and trust him to make good decisions on page layout, panel breakdowns, etc. It was partly a favor to Kirby, so he could keep working instead of sitting and waiting for a script. It worked so well that Stan got rid of the other scripters he'd had writing some of the superhero books (Robert Bernstein, Ernie Hart, Don Rico, Larry Lieber) and focused on the overall story and the dialogue rather than deciding what should be in panel 1, then panel 2, etc. Some artists found it liberating, others struggled. There was a period, I wish I knew exactly when, where Stan would script the first three pages of a story and the last three, and Don Heck would wing it in between. It certainly wasn't as formalized as Sundell's system, at least not in the beginning. |
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Post by Cei-U! on Oct 18, 2017 15:31:14 GMT -5
In the course of my research, I've learned that the earliest known use of the "Marvel method" in comic books was in the Fox titles edited by Abner Sundall in 1941-42. Sundall bought plot outlines, gave them to artists who made most of the storytelling decisions, then gave the penciled pages to the writer to dialogue. Cei-U! That's the facts, Jack! It's "Sundell", isn't it? Did the same writer usually do the plot and the dialogue? From what I've read, my impression is that the "Marvel Method" developed organically in the early 60s, when Stan started working directly with Kirby instead of having Larry Lieber write up a script first. Stan knew what Kirby had done in his career, so if Stan hadn't written the next script at the point when Kirby was ready to start drawing it, he could just go over the story with Jack and trust him to make good decisions on page layout, panel breakdowns, etc. It was partly a favor to Kirby, so he could keep working instead of sitting and waiting for a script. It worked so well that Stan got rid of the other scripters he'd had writing some of the superhero books (Robert Bernstein, Ernie Hart, Don Rico, Larry Lieber) and focused on the overall story and the dialogue rather than deciding what should be in panel 1, then panel 2, etc. Some artists found it liberating, others struggled. There was a period, I wish I knew exactly when, where Stan would script the first three pages of a story and the last three, and Don Heck would wing it in between. It certainly wasn't as formalized as Sundell's system, at least not in the beginning. It is Sundell, yes. And yes, the same writer who submitted the plot also wrote the dialogue, according to Robert Kanigher, whose comics career started at Fox under previous editor Bill Scott. Kanigher was not enamored of Sundell's approach, which came from a desire to streamline the production process. Whether it actually did or not, I couldn't tell you. It's my impression that Stan and Jack were already using the Marvel method on the pre-hero monster titles and had begun doing so as early as Rawhide Kid #17. I also suspect Martin Goodman's tightfistedness had a lot to do with it, as the method eliminated the need to pay outside scripters, especially because his scripting chores were considered part of Stan's job and he was not paid separately for them. He may have worked that way with Jack Keller on Kid Colt and Al Hartley on the Millie/Patsy titles. I can't swear to any of that, though, without doing more research than I have time for. Cei-U! I hedge my bets! |
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Post by Rob Allen on Oct 18, 2017 18:20:41 GMT -5
It's "Sundell", isn't it? Did the same writer usually do the plot and the dialogue? From what I've read, my impression is that the "Marvel Method" developed organically in the early 60s, when Stan started working directly with Kirby instead of having Larry Lieber write up a script first. Stan knew what Kirby had done in his career, so if Stan hadn't written the next script at the point when Kirby was ready to start drawing it, he could just go over the story with Jack and trust him to make good decisions on page layout, panel breakdowns, etc. It was partly a favor to Kirby, so he could keep working instead of sitting and waiting for a script. It worked so well that Stan got rid of the other scripters he'd had writing some of the superhero books (Robert Bernstein, Ernie Hart, Don Rico, Larry Lieber) and focused on the overall story and the dialogue rather than deciding what should be in panel 1, then panel 2, etc. Some artists found it liberating, others struggled. There was a period, I wish I knew exactly when, where Stan would script the first three pages of a story and the last three, and Don Heck would wing it in between. It certainly wasn't as formalized as Sundell's system, at least not in the beginning. It is Sundell, yes. And yes, the same writer who submitted the plot also wrote the dialogue, according to Robert Kanigher, whose comics career started at Fox under previous editor Bill Scott. Kanigher was not enamored of Sundell's approach, which came from a desire to streamline the production process. Whether it actually did or not, I couldn't tell you. It's my impression that Stan and Jack were already using the Marvel method on the pre-hero monster titles and had begun doing so as early as Rawhide Kid #17. I also suspect Martin Goodman's tightfistedness had a lot to do with it, as the method eliminated the need to pay outside scripters, especially because his scripting chores were considered part of Stan's job and he was not paid separately for them. He may have worked that way with Jack Keller on Kid Colt and Al Hartley on the Millie/Patsy titles. I can't swear to any of that, though, without doing more research than I have time for. Cei-U! I hedge my bets! Hmm, my impression has been that the monster-of-the-month stories were all done with Larry Lieber scripts, and that the Rawhide Kid revival was the first substantive collaboration between Lee and Kirby. I don't have a lot of time for research either but I'll see if I can find anything. |
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Post by Cei-U! on Oct 18, 2017 19:09:28 GMT -5
It is Sundell, yes. And yes, the same writer who submitted the plot also wrote the dialogue, according to Robert Kanigher, whose comics career started at Fox under previous editor Bill Scott. Kanigher was not enamored of Sundell's approach, which came from a desire to streamline the production process. Whether it actually did or not, I couldn't tell you. It's my impression that Stan and Jack were already using the Marvel method on the pre-hero monster titles and had begun doing so as early as Rawhide Kid #17. I also suspect Martin Goodman's tightfistedness had a lot to do with it, as the method eliminated the need to pay outside scripters, especially because his scripting chores were considered part of Stan's job and he was not paid separately for them. He may have worked that way with Jack Keller on Kid Colt and Al Hartley on the Millie/Patsy titles. I can't swear to any of that, though, without doing more research than I have time for. Cei-U! I hedge my bets! Hmm, my impression has been that the monster-of-the-month stories were all done with Larry Lieber scripts, and that the Rawhide Kid revival was the first substantive collaboration between Lee and Kirby. I don't have a lot of time for research either but I'll see if I can find anything. I think you're right about the monster stories being scripted by Larry Lieber. My mistake. Cei-U! I own my boo-boos! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2017 19:24:31 GMT -5
Didn't we have a discussion here in some thread or another where someone (was it Tolworthy maybe) examined the theory that the first FF story was comprised of re-purposed unused pages from 2 different Kirby monster stories mashed together and altered to create a new story?
I don't remember what the consensus on that theory is, but if true, it does raise some interesting questions as to who did what and came up with what in the earliest days of Marvel.
-M
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 18, 2017 19:31:00 GMT -5
Didn't we have a discussion here in some thread or another where someone (was it Tolworthy maybe) examined the theory that the first FF story was comprised of re-purposed unused pages from 2 different Kirby monster stories mashed together and altered to create a new story? I don't remember what the consensus on that theory is, but if true, it does raise some interesting questions as to who did what and came up with what in the earliest days of Marvel. -M We talked about the possibility in my Marvel Review thread that FF #1 was at least partially made up of Atlas monster stories. It was MWGallaher that posited the theory. I think it's actually a pretty compelling idea. www.classiccomics.org/thread/21/slam-bradley-reads-marvel-universe |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2017 19:48:34 GMT -5
Didn't we have a discussion here in some thread or another where someone (was it Tolworthy maybe) examined the theory that the first FF story was comprised of re-purposed unused pages from 2 different Kirby monster stories mashed together and altered to create a new story? I don't remember what the consensus on that theory is, but if true, it does raise some interesting questions as to who did what and came up with what in the earliest days of Marvel. -M We talked about the possibility in my Marvel Review thread that FF #1 was at least partially made up of Atlas monster stories. It was MWGallaher that posited the theory. I think it's actually a pretty compelling idea. www.classiccomics.org/thread/21/slam-bradley-reads-marvel-universeThanks, Slam. I remembered part of the discussion but not where or who the participants were, and I am not sure there were any parameters I could have entered into the search function that would have turned it up for me. -M |
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Crimebuster
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Making comics!
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Post by Crimebuster on Oct 18, 2017 20:14:25 GMT -5
It's almost impossible to untangle Stan's contributions as an editor from his work as a writer. For Stan, they were part of the same process. Personally, I think it's reductive and kind of pointless to try and figure out exactly which specific touches came from whom. They were all collaborations. But, Stan had the final say in everything, and made the bigger picture decisions like which creator to put in which title, etc. While you could argue that Ditko created Dr. Strange or Kirby created the Silver Surfer, Stan created Marvel Comics.
It's also been pointed out ad infinitum, but to see how good stan was as a writer you can look at how the creators like Kirby and Ditko did without Stan, and how the titles and characters fared when other people like Lieber were writing them. It's clear to me anyway that Stan was a top tier comic book writer.
Attempts to give other creators the credit they are surely due too often comes at the expense of giving Stan the credit he is also due. This doesn't have to be an either or debate.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Oct 18, 2017 21:38:07 GMT -5
Honestly, at this point, I think Stan is probably a little underrated. I've been toying with a long-form essay on this for years. Stan's probably the best writer in mainstream comics ever at using dialog to define characters. It's not that he's a DEEP writer but he's incredibly efficient at creating rounded characters in just a couple panels. I've posted this before (this week!) but here's Thor and the cab driver.  A well-rounded fleshed-out character, that only appeared once for five panels. And, y'know, he used the tools of postmoderism - his stuff was ABOUT the relationship between the creators, the story, and the audience as much as anything - to sell comics to nine year olds. There's a general sense that comics got more sophisticated in the '70s because they talked about pollution, but I see it as a step down from Stan's ultra-complex - but, paradoxically, quite easy to understand - meta-fiction. And he was a really good humor writer - always at least amusing and sometimes (like most J. Jonah. Jameson scenes) laugh out loud funny. And very rarely does anyone mention any of this, and all these skills have been basically forgotten by mainstream comic writers of the last 30 years. Every superhero comic artist is stull influenced by Kirby. You can't do American factory system superhero comics in 2017 without at least indirectly copying some of Kirby's aesthetic. But nobody these days is copying Stan, and comics are far worse because of it. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 18, 2017 22:07:59 GMT -5
Which brings up the point being, how successful or good have Stans's efforts or products been post-Silver Age ? The Just Imagine series sold mostly on gimmick of modern day artists working with Stan on his version of D.C. characters; mostly gimmick. I'd never heard or considered his other artists contributing plots like Kirby and Ditko. I wonder if in fact they did to some degree, according to the Marvel method, which would make Stan a co-writer / scripter. Dude... hello! Ravage! All Stan Lee!! I mean, he's my profile pic, so he has to be great  Seriously, though, He did have some other stuff post-Marvel, but none of it really got me excited. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2017 22:11:00 GMT -5
Which brings up the point being, how successful or good have Stans's efforts or products been post-Silver Age ? The Just Imagine series sold mostly on gimmick of modern day artists working with Stan on his version of D.C. characters; mostly gimmick. I'd never heard or considered his other artists contributing plots like Kirby and Ditko. I wonder if in fact they did to some degree, according to the Marvel method, which would make Stan a co-writer / scripter. Dude... hello! Ravage! All Stan Lee!! I mean, he's my profile pic, so he has to be great Seriously, though, He did have some other stuff post-Marvel, but none of it really got me excited. In all honesty, reading Stan's Ravage in the 90s when it came out is what made me start reevaluating what Jack and Steve brought to the table and reevaluating where the credit for the Marvel zeitgeist should reside. -M |
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