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Post by Rob Allen on Aug 25, 2023 17:01:36 GMT -5
Have I misunderstood your meaning? Yes, you have. But that’s because you are such a nice guy, Rob. I was being irreverent, as in “You know where you can put that?” Sorry. No apology necessary, I'm laughing now. As crazy as it is, Mr. Forsyth's list seems to be correct. I haven't been able to think of an example that violates the order he describes.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Aug 25, 2023 17:11:37 GMT -5
If one considers Great Dragon to be a proper noun, as in a formal name for a specific species of dragons(like the Great Egret is for birds), then you can have a green Great Dragon. That of course doesn't break the rule, it just shows that Tolklien wasn't necessarily in the wrong.
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Post by Prince Hal on Aug 25, 2023 17:59:59 GMT -5
Yes, you have. But that’s because you are such a nice guy, Rob. I was being irreverent, as in “You know where you can put that?” Sorry. No apology necessary, I'm laughing now. As crazy as it is, Mr. Forsyth's list seems to be correct. I haven't been able to think of an example that violates the order he describes. Oh, yeah, I loved the list, too. Just couldn't resist the straight line.
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Post by Rob Allen on Aug 25, 2023 18:10:55 GMT -5
If one considers Great Dragon to be a proper noun, as in a formal name for a specific species of dragons(like the Great Egret is for birds), then you can have a green Great Dragon. That of course doesn't break the rule, it just shows that Tolklien wasn't necessarily in the wrong. And as my wife said when I read the story to her, Tolkien's mom really didn't do the world any favors by quashing young John's creativity. He was seven. Let him have his dragon!
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Post by Prince Hal on Aug 25, 2023 18:16:26 GMT -5
If one considers Great Dragon to be a proper noun, as in a formal name for a specific species of dragons(like the Great Egret is for birds), then you can have a green Great Dragon. That of course doesn't break the rule, it just shows that Tolklien wasn't necessarily in the wrong. And as my wife said when I read the story to her, Tolkien's mom really didn't do the world any favors by quashing young John's creativity. He was seven. Let him have his dragon! Reminds me of a story Joseph Campbell told. Remember the last line [of Babbitt]? “I have never done the thing that I wanted to in all my life.” That is a man who never followed his bliss. Well, I actually heard that line when I was teaching at Sarah Lawrence. Before I was married, I used to eat out in the restaurants of town for my lunch and dinners. Thursday night was the maid’s night off in Bronxville, so that many of the families were out in restaurants. One fine evening, I was in my favorite restaurant there, and at the next table there was a father, a mother, and a scrawny boy about twelve years old. The father said to the boy, “Drink your tomato juice.”
And the boy said, “I don’t want to.”
Then the father, with a louder voice, said, “Drink your tomato juice.”
And the mother said, “Don’t make him do what he doesn’t want to do.”
The father looked at her and said, “He can’t go through life doing what he wants to do. If he only does what he wants to do, he’ll be dead. Look at me. I’ve never done a thing I wanted to in all my life.”
And I thought, “There’s Babbitt incarnate.”
That’s the man who never followed his bliss. You may have a success in life, but then just think of it—what kind of life was it? What good was it—you’ve never done the thing you wanted to do in all your life. I always tell my students, go where your body and soul want to go. When you have the feeling, then stay with it, and don’t let anyone throw you off.
Good for Tolkien for following his bliss. And his green great dragon.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Aug 26, 2023 1:59:37 GMT -5
(...) As crazy as it is, Mr. Forsyth's list seems to be correct. I haven't been able to think of an example that violates the order he describes. Precisely what I was thinking. Over the years, I've done a lot of language editing/proof reading of translated texts (by native Croatian speakers) and I've noticed that the incorrect order of multiple adjectives is something that I notice right away - and duly correct. And it's just something you intuitively know; I think this is the first time I've seen an explanation of the rule.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Aug 26, 2023 2:42:22 GMT -5
Reminds me of a story Joseph Campbell told. (...) Yeah... I'm not a fan of Campbell and am leery about quoting him about anything. Even that the conclusion of that anecdote, while seemingly innocuous enough on its face, has some troubling implications. For example, I keep thinking that advice like that takes on a different quality if it's given to a sociopath.
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Post by majestic on Aug 27, 2023 8:28:55 GMT -5
Movies are only $4 across the USA today. National Cinema Day. Also a way to get butts into seats.
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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 27, 2023 10:42:17 GMT -5
Movies are only $4 across the USA today. National Cinema Day. Also a way to get butts into seats. Now you tell me
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Post by Prince Hal on Aug 27, 2023 14:05:17 GMT -5
Reminds me of a story Joseph Campbell told. (...) Yeah... I'm not a fan of Campbell and am leery about quoting him about anything. Even that the conclusion of that anecdote, while seemingly innocuous enough on its face, has some troubling implications. For example, I keep thinking that advice like that takes on a different quality if it's given to a sociopath. Well, the story, whether completely accurate or metaphorical, is still applicable to anyone, saint or sociopath. And it's clear that the father in the story was referring to the strictures society had placed on him and expected of him. And s for Campbell, well, just leave him out of it. What if I'd added this bit of advice: “Do not compare yourself to others. If you do so, you are insulting yourself.” Standard advice. Did it come Gordon Ramsay or Dr. Phil, and does it matter?
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 27, 2023 14:27:04 GMT -5
Yeah... I'm not a fan of Campbell and am leery about quoting him about anything. Even that the conclusion of that anecdote, while seemingly innocuous enough on its face, has some troubling implications. For example, I keep thinking that advice like that takes on a different quality if it's given to a sociopath. Well, the story, whether completely accurate or metaphorical, is still applicable to anyone, saint or sociopath. And it's clear that the father in the story was referring to the strictures society had placed on him and expected of him. And s for Campbell, well, just leave him out of it. What if I'd added this bit of advice: “Do not compare yourself to others. If you do so, you are insulting yourself.” Standard advice. Did it come Gordon Ramsay or Dr. Phil, and does it matter? It kind of does though. Because if you're citing to someone then it's an appeal to authority. You're saying, this smart person said this so we should think about it and respect it. Leaving aside whether this is, in fact, a logical fallacy the opinion of the listener is going to be affected by their view of the individual making the statement. For example I'm going to think three or four times about something that's said by Dr. Phil and look for the hidden meaning of chicanery, because I know that he is an unrepentant charlatan. On the other hand, I've interacted with Prince Hal enough that I will ponder what he's saying and give it some benefit of the doubt. Statements by Gordon Ramsay and Joseph Campbell are pretty much of complete indifference to me, except maybe to the extent that Ramsay talks about issues of cooking.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Aug 27, 2023 15:06:23 GMT -5
Well, the story, whether completely accurate or metaphorical, is still applicable to anyone, saint or sociopath. And it's clear that the father in the story was referring to the strictures society had placed on him and expected of him. And s for Campbell, well, just leave him out of it. What if I'd added this bit of advice: “Do not compare yourself to others. If you do so, you are insulting yourself.” Standard advice. Did it come Gordon Ramsay or Dr. Phil, and does it matter? It kind of does though. Because if you're citing to someone then it's an appeal to authority. You're saying, this smart person said this so we should think about it and respect it. Leaving aside whether this is, in fact, a logical fallacy the opinion of the listener is going to be affected by their view of the individual making the statement. For example I'm going to think three or four times about something that's said by Dr. Phil and look for the hidden meaning of chicanery, because I know that he is an unrepentant charlatan. On the other hand, I've interacted with Prince Hal enough that I will ponder what he's saying and give it some benefit of the doubt. Statements by Gordon Ramsay and Joseph Campbell are pretty much of complete indifference to me, except maybe to the extent that Ramsay talks about issues of cooking. Yes, this. And to me in particular, Campbell falls somewhere closer to the Dr. Phil rather than the Prince Hal end of the spectrum.
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Post by Prince Hal on Aug 28, 2023 10:18:27 GMT -5
Slam_Bradley and EdoBosnar ... First, edo, thanks for thinking I wouldn't be hangin' with Dr. Phil and slam, for giving me the hard-earned benefit of your doubt. I see your points about citing to authority, but as I said, I was simply citing the source where I'd read the story more than thinking of Campbell as an authority. And Campbell was telling a story, recounting something he'd observed, as opposed to giving advice that he'd come up with. Whether he'd invented the thing out of whole cloth is certainly debatable, but I have no way of testing its veracity. If he invented it to prove his point about the importance of seeking and following what it is you want to do with your life, shame on him, but it still works. And if his story should be tossed out because he is its creator, his allusion to "Babbitt" points us to a similar bit of commentary on the part of Sinclair Lewis. I think the Campbell story is an apt parable on its own, no matter who tells it. I don't cotton much to people who cite the Bible as an authority on everything from women's rights to financial advice, but that doesn't mean I'm going to say that every passage or story in the Bible is worthless as a word or two to live by. As for the statement's being used as a justification for a sociopath's actions, well, sure, but then any statement can be applied thusly: If you're a sado-masochist, the Golden Rule has a much different meaning for you than it does for most people, for instance. And sure, a Jeffrey Dahmer-type would, too, but because it appeals to an unbalanced mind like his as well as to a healthy one (Insert your name here) doesn't negate its value.
Oh, and surprising to me anyway, Dr. Phil is not credited with that statement about comparing yourself to others, though it's a bromide that a million parents and teachers utter every day to their kids to reassure them, but it is attributed to many, many others, including Ramsay. And Hitler. Who knew he'd written a self-help book?
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Post by Rob Allen on Aug 28, 2023 10:41:11 GMT -5
If you're a sado-masochist, the Golden Rule has a much different meaning for you than it does for most people, but because it appeals to an an unbalanced mind as well as to a healthy one doesn't negate it. I and my fellow members of fetlife.com are chagrined to see ourselves characterized as "unbalanced" rather than "healthy".
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Post by Prince Hal on Aug 28, 2023 13:10:39 GMT -5
If you're a sado-masochist, the Golden Rule has a much different meaning for you than it does for most people, but because it appeals to an an unbalanced mind as well as to a healthy one doesn't negate it. I and my fellow members of fetlife.com are chagrined to see ourselves characterized as "unbalanced" rather than "healthy". Let me go back and edit that for clarity. I see your point. I was rushing to finish that sentence. Apologies.
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