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Post by EdoBosnar on Jan 12, 2019 4:13:02 GMT -5
That's understandable: both Nimoy and William Shatner's short-lived musical careers in the late 60s are best forgotten. No they're not, they're unintentional comedy gold. Also, Shatner's musical career is hardly short-lived, as he revived it in the early 00s and has released several albums since. He may have been earnest in his early outings, but it seems like now he has a much more tongue-in-cheek attitude about the whole thing. And personally, I thought his rendition of Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer from late last year was pretty funny:
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Post by Confessor on Jan 12, 2019 10:09:27 GMT -5
That's understandable: both Nimoy and William Shatner's short-lived musical careers in the late 60s are best forgotten. No they're not, they're unintentional comedy gold. There's a fine line between comedy and tragedy. Actually, I agree that, when I first discovered Nimoy and Shatner's 60s albums in the early 90s, I thought they were unintentionally hilarious. Mind you, I was doing a LOT of drugs back then though. Also, Shatner's musical career is hardly short-lived, as he revived it in the early 00s and has released several albums since. Oh Lordy! I had no idea.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2019 21:23:03 GMT -5
Here's a look at one of the sets of miniatures coming out from Games Workshop to support their Middle Earth Strategy Battle Game (a tabletop miniatures game) These look really sweet! -M
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Post by berkley on Jan 13, 2019 23:50:56 GMT -5
No they're not, they're unintentional comedy gold. There's a fine line between comedy and tragedy. Actually, I agree that, when I first discovered Nimoy and Shatner's 60s albums in the early 90s, I thought they were unintentionally hilarious. Mind you, I was doing a LOT of drugs back then though. Also, Shatner's musical career is hardly short-lived, as he revived it in the early 00s and has released several albums since. Oh Lordy! I had no idea. Surely you must have heard his famous cover of Common People?
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Post by Confessor on Jan 14, 2019 14:14:16 GMT -5
There's a fine line between comedy and tragedy. Actually, I agree that, when I first discovered Nimoy and Shatner's 60s albums in the early 90s, I thought they were unintentionally hilarious. Mind you, I was doing a LOT of drugs back then though. Oh Lordy! I had no idea. Surely you must have heard his famous cover of Common People? No, I'd not heard that, but...you see, that's just much too self-aware. It's too intentionally kitsch. The thing with Shatner's late '60s album, featuring his covers of "Mr. Tambourine Man" and "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds", is that, sure...it was a cash-in, but Shatner and his producers were really trying to do the best job they could with the limited musical talent he had. That's why it's so amazing. Because it's unintentionally hilarious. The Pulp cover above just sounds to me like someone trying to milk a joke that was really only funny the first time you heard it. Plus, the post-grunge guitars in the background betray the producer's deliberate intention to make this as accessible as possible to hipster indie kids who get the joke and revel in the post-ironic kitchness of it all.
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Jan 14, 2019 15:30:16 GMT -5
Has Been was produced by Ben Folds, who also co-wrote some of the tracks, and performed on a couple. So it's very self aware, but for me anyway, there's some good stuff on it.
I actually like it, and in a non-ironic way. There are some pretty good tracks. And it's not all kitsch. One of them is a very serious spoken word poem about the death of his third wife, whom he found drowned in their pool - called What Have You Done.
I think Together is the best track on it - it directly follows What Have You Done, so it's worth listening to the pair of them back to back (What Have You Done first, then Together). It's hard to take Shatner seriously, because he clearly rarely takes his own work seriously, but he seems pretty sincere on these two tracks and the difference shows.
I also like You'll Have Time from this album, which is more of a fun song.
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Post by Confessor on Jan 14, 2019 17:16:54 GMT -5
I've been reading the book Tolkien: Maker of Middle-Earth over the past week... It's a hefty and generously illustrated coffee table book that was published to accompany the J.R.R. Tolkien exhibition that I visited in August last year at the Bodleian Library in Oxford (you can see what I wrote about my visit to the exhibition here). While it focuses on Tolkien's Legendarium, it definitely leans more towards biographical information and the events of the author's literary life, rather than giving us an in-depth analysis of the history of Hobbits or Elves. But with that said, Tolkien's life and his Legendarium are hopelessly intertwined, and this book is full of illuminating little tidbits that shed light on the creative origins of the stories that we love. For example, I learnt yesterday that the name Middle-earth was derived from an old Anglo-Saxon poem called Christ I, which features the Old English term middangeard. This word translates as "middle-world", which is a common term in Germanic and Old Norse literature (it descends from the likes of Midgard in Norse mythology, for example). Over the centuries, middangeard became middel-erde in Old English, which is often translated as "middle-earth". Tolkien adopted the name for his fictional realm in the 1930s, as he continued to work on The Silmarillion, using it to replace earlier names such as the "Great Lands" or the "Hither Lands". Similarly, Mirkwood has its origins in Old English. Tolkien actually borrowed the word from author William Morris's book The House of the Wolfings, but the reason Tolkien used it was because, as a Professor of language and literature, he understood the Germanic and Old English connotations of the word: Mirkwood is derived from the Old English mirce, meaning 'dark' or 'gloomy' (from which we get 'murky', no doubt), but it also means 'evil' or 'hellish'. So, the phonetically spelled 'mirk' in Mirkwood was never meant to simply evoke a dark, gloomy place; it was explicitly referencing the faerie dangers lurking within the forest, such as the giant spiders, Elves and, obviously, the Necromancer. And just last night I read that the word Gamgee (as in Samwise Gamgee) is actually a word for cotton that was spun into a surgical dressing. It was invented by and named after Dr. J. S. Gamgee of Birmingham, England, in the late 19th century. Tolkien spent time living in Birmingham as a child and was well aware of the meaning of the word. From there, it was obviously a short hop in Tolkien's imagination to name the object of Sam Gamgee's romantic desire and eventual wife, Rosie Cotton. The book is packed full of such insights. But, in many ways, the best thing about it is the hundreds of manuscripts, photographs, original sketches, doodles, and watercolour paintings by Tolkien that it reproduces. I saw most of these in the "flesh", so to speak, at the Bodleian exhibition last year, and the book certainly serves as a nice souvenir of that event, if you were lucky enough to see it. But even if you didn't, this is well worth reading if you're a fan of Tolkien's Middle-earth adventures (specifically the books, rather than the films, I would say). It's fascinating to see how Tolkien's imaginary world was painstakingly formed over decades of the author's life, and how his life, loves and friendships influenced that creation. This is definitely a book that will appeal to the hardcore Tolkien devotee and it comes highly recommended by this reader. Here are some pics...
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Post by berkley on Jan 15, 2019 3:19:58 GMT -5
I might have to get that, depending on how much overlap there is with the illustrations in The Art of the Hobbit and The Art of Tolkien.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 1:11:34 GMT -5
The Tolkien: Maker of Middle Earth Exhibit will be coming to America, It is set to run at the New York Morgan's Library and Museum from January 25th to May 12th of this year. I highly doubt I can make the trip to NY to see it, but it is tempting to think about. -M
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 16:37:56 GMT -5
Tolkien biopic from Fox Searchlight gets a May 10th 2019 release date. I had heard this picture was in the works, but hadn't seen mention of it for a while, and wasn't sure if it had gotten stuck indevelopment hell or had even gone into let alone finished production, so I am happy to see it is getting released and this year too. -M
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Post by Confessor on Jan 17, 2019 17:28:29 GMT -5
Tolkien biopic from Fox Searchlight gets a May 10th 2019 release date. I had heard this picture was in the works, but hadn't seen mention of it for a while, and wasn't sure if it had gotten stuck indevelopment hell or had even gone into let alone finished production, so I am happy to see it is getting released and this year too. -M I had no idea this was being made. Should be worth a watch. I've been reading all about Tolkien's early life, his marriage to Edith Bratt and his time on the front in World War I in the Tolkien: Maker of Middle-Earth book.
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Post by Confessor on Jan 18, 2019 4:05:38 GMT -5
OK, let's talk about the Old Forest and Tom Bombadil... The sequence from The Fellowship of the Ring in which the four Hobbits enter the Old Forest and meet Tom Bombadil is the part of The Lord of the Rings that is most likely to be left out of adaptations of the book. Ralph Bakshi's 1978 animated movie, the excellent BBC radio dramatisation from 1981, and Peter Jackson's movie trilogy all omitted the scene. Personally, I can well understand why these adaptations would choose to pass over the Old Forest. After all, it lacks drama and adds little to the overall narrative, while also serving to slow down the pace of the story. I mean, let's face it, once the Hobbits leave the Shire – with the Ringwraiths searching for them – we want them to get to the Prancing Pony in Bree to meet up with Strider as quickly as possible. But having said that, I find the scenes in the Old Forest to be some of the most enchanting in The Fellowship of the Ring. First, just let me say that I'm a sucker for ancient, enchanted forests in literature...it's why the scenes in Mirkwood are probably my favourite part of The Hobbit. But apart from that, I feel as if the scenes in the Old Forest are largely symbolic and were important to J.R.R. Tolkien for precisely that reason. For one thing, forests were often used in ancient folkloric tales to represent a journey or transition, and Tolkien would've been well aware of that. So, I think its safe to say (and probably quite obvious to a lot of fans) that, in the context of The Fellowship of the Ring, the Old Forest represents the transition from the peaceful, paradise-like world of Hobbiton and the Shire, into the "real world" of danger and adventure of the wider Middle-earth. Bombadil himself represents, I think, the triumph of knowledge – specifically knowledge of the natural world – over danger. He functions as an embodiment of nature, knowledge and music (don't forget, he beats the Barrow-wight by basically singing at him!). He shows the Hobbits – and, by proxy, we the readers – that dangers, such as the Barrow-white and Old Man Willow, can be easily defeated if you have knowledge. His wife Goldberry even more explicitly represents nature, I think, with Bombadil perhaps representing knowledge of nature? I dunno, I'm just throwing out half-formed ideas here. One thing's for sure though, Tom's lighthearted nature stems from his ability to delight in things as they are, without feeling the need to dominate or control them. He even explains to Frodo that he could be free of the One Ring's corruptive influence simply by not being interested in its power. Bombadil is, I think, the author's attempt to show us that we can make our own modern lives better, with little more than child-like optimism, whimsy, and music, if we could but harmonise with the natural world, rather than trying to conquer it. This idea of the "child (or child-like adult) as savant" was a favourite notion of the Hippies back in the '60s, and since Tom fits in so well with that concept, perhaps he's an example of why the LOTRs resonated with the '60s counter-culture so much? As for the Old Forest, it's an enchanted and fairy tale-like realm, with the childlike and whimsical Bombadil being arguably the most fairy tale-like thing in it. The prose too has a noticeably more poetic quality in this section of the book, which Tolkien no doubt deliberately employed to enhance the location's mystical, dream-like qualities. Additionally, the Old Forest is the first in a series of examples in LOTRs of Tolkien's love and protective empathy towards trees and the natural world. For example, the march of the Ents and their attack or Isengard in The Two Towers can clearly be seen as the author's reminder to the reader that if you f**k with the environment, there will be consequences! The Old Forest is the first example in the LOTRs of Tolkien expressing his love for the ancient English countryside. But the important thing is that once the Hobbits pass through the Old Forest and beyond the Barrow Downs, they are in the real world for the first time and there are very real dangers to face there. Frodo and Co. aren't in the Edenic Shire or the fairy tale-like Old Forest anymore: this is the real world where people can kill you and simply singing at them won't stop that. Summing up, I don't consider the Old Forest and the Hobbits' meeting with Tom Bombadil to be essential parts of the book, by any means, but they are definitely entertaining and thought-provoking. Bombadil is an ambiguous creation. Exactly what or who he is is left largely unexplained in the book's text, leaving it to the reader to form their own opinion. Old Tom is a mystery without an answer, and I like that about him. So, what do others here feel about the Old Forest and Tom Bombadil? Are they essential parts of The Lord of the Rings or a boring waste of space in an otherwise great book?
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 18, 2019 8:59:37 GMT -5
I think the Tom Bombadil chapters are damn near essential for all the reasons you listed, and I've always been saddened that they never got adapted even in the director's cut of the Fellowship of the Ring. Personally, more often than not when I go to reread the first book I find myself stopping right after Bombadil departs and not because I'm bored at that point but rather because it so perfectly scratches that itch that I find I don't need more.
What I've always found interesting is that the ideals of Old Tome and his purpose in the story weren't confined to just him as we saw Tolkien use those again and again in other characters; Beon in The Hobbit, Treebeard in The Two Towers, and to a slightly lesser extent Ghan-buri-ghan in Return of the King.
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Post by Confessor on Jan 19, 2019 2:48:50 GMT -5
I think the Tom Bombadil chapters are damn near essential for all the reasons you listed, and I've always been saddened that they never got adapted even in the director's cut of the Fellowship of the Ring. I think it's interesting that, even though Peter Jackson omitted the Old Forest from his film trilogy, he still kinda gave a nod to it by transplanting the scene where Old Man Willow swallows Merry and Pippin into his trunk to a later point in the story, on the floor of Fangorn forest in The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers. In that instance, the Hobbits are rescued by Treebeard, rather than Tom Bombadil, but since, as you say, the two characters aren't so different, the scene still works in a similar fashion. I bet that Jackson is a fan of Tom Bombadil and the Old Forest, even though he realised that, from a film making perspective, those scenes had to go. What I've always found interesting is that the ideals of Old Tome and his purpose in the story weren't confined to just him as we saw Tolkien use those again and again in other characters; Beon in The Hobbit, Treebeard in The Two Towers, and to a slightly lesser extent Ghan-buri-ghan in Return of the King. The Treebeard/Bombadil similarities you suggest are well founded I think and, yeah, the "nobel savage" Ghan is kind of cut from similar cloth, I guess. Beorn is interesting though because, where as Treebeard and Bombadil are closely associated with the flora of the natural world, Beorn is more orientated towards the fauna. Beorn is a puzzling character, actually. I mean, he's essentially a were-bear isn't he? That's how I've always thought of him. But if we agree that he is a representation of the wild animal kingdom, then Beon represents the unpredictable, "red in tooth and claw" nature of the natural world, whereas Treebeard and Bombadil advocate a kind of peaceful harmony with nature. I mean, Beorn's clearly on Bilbo and the Dwarves' side, but even so, he's still of some danger to them. Gandalf tells his companions not to go outside after dark, while they are staying at Beorn's house. The implication is that Beorn is somewhat "untamed" and might not always be as friendly towards Bilbo and the Dwarves as he was when in human form. The other thing worth noting is that despite being a vicious and ruthless enemy (he goes out and kills Goblins and Wargs during the night, while Bilbo and company sleep), Beorn is actually a vegetarian. He rears and keeps horses, cows and sheep on his land, but he doesn't eat them. That's a strange dietary trait for a character who we might think of as a representation of the untamed animal kingdom. Perhaps this was Tolkien's way of showing that Beorn too was in peaceful harmony with his particular branch of the natural world; i.e. the fauna.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jan 20, 2019 11:03:54 GMT -5
Tom Bombadil’s inclusion in the movies would have caused a major storytelling problem, I think. The audience is told that the one ring is an immensely powerful McGuffin, but its power is never actually shown on screen; all we have to go on is Gandalf’s word, and the obvious obsession of every powerful character for its possession. We understand that the fate of the world might depend on it, yes, because nothing contradicts that narrative. It’s important for the plot's success that the ring remain that all-powerful weapon that must absolutely be destroyed, and the loss of which would signal universal doom.
Now imagine what would happen if, right at the start of the adventure proper, a jolly forest spirit were to show up and treat the ring like a mere trinket, being totally impervious to its power! It would diffuse the ring’s awe-inspiring image, for one, and would bring us to wonder why Tom is not made an integral part of the rest of the story, since he could apparently take care of Sauron and the ringwraiths by just singing at them or bitch-slapping them with no regard to their might.
Tom Bombadil’s role is important in the mythology of Middle-Earth, to be sure, and in the philosophical aspects of the tale; he is the soul who gains true freedom by living in harmony with his world and by not falling prey to vain pursuits like power and ambition. He is a message of hope to all those who feel crushed by the machinations of the high and mighty. But his role in the actual plot of The Lord Of The Rings comes across as a distraction, as far as the adventure alone is concerned. The scouring of the Shire is a little in the same vein, even as an important part of the novel (showing the consequences of war at home, by no means a trivial aspect of it). It is a key point of the overall tale, but is not crucial to the adventure itself. Just like Star Wars ends with the Death Star blowing up, the adventure in The Lord Of The Rings can end with the ring’s destruction (or, all right, with Aragorn’s marriage and coronation).
Regarding Tom Bombadil himself, there’s one thing that still bothers me a little... and that’s his wooing of Goldberry. He doesn’t woo her: he forcibly abducts her and they get married. That the marriage is a happy one is neither here nor there; I didn’t enjoy the rape of the Sabine women by the early Romans either! Of course, it’s not fair to judge mythological issues by today’s standards; it’s even a little ridiculous. But this reader’s modern sensibilities can’t help but feel a little uncomfortable at seeing this joyous imp impose his will on another being.
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