Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Apr 3, 2019 15:46:14 GMT -5
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Post by thwhtguardian on Apr 3, 2019 19:28:29 GMT -5
Moorecock's criticism of the Lord of the Rings and Tolkien's work in general has always felt completely subjective and wrong headed to me. His whole critique pretty much boils down to that Tolkien's work isn't as anti-establishment as modern fantasy should be...which rather than being a damning critique should just be met with a "Well, duh." Tolkien was writing in a post war England that was still picking up the pieces so of course it's going to reflect a "return to how things were" feeling, while Moorecock's Elric stories spring from the cultural revolution of the 60's so again the "stick it to the man" feeling is to be expected but neither feeling is truly better or truer than the other...they're just different, and as the article you posted points out the ending of LotR isn't as idyllic as many portray making the criticism even more hollow.
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Post by berkley on Apr 3, 2019 19:36:37 GMT -5
Moorecock's criticism of the Lord of the Rings and Tolkien's work in general has always felt completely subjective and wrong headed to me. His whole critique pretty much boils down to that Tolkien's work isn't as anti-establishment as modern fantasy should be...which rather than being a damning critique should just be met with a "Well, duh." Tolkien was writing in a post war England that was still picking up the pieces so of course it's going to reflect a "return to how things were" feeling, while Moorecock's Elric stories spring from the cultural revolution of the 60's so again the "stick it to the man" feeling is to be expected but neither feeling is truly better or truer than the other...they're just different. It always felt to me as if Moorcock was responding emotionally to the whole "fantasy industry" that sprang up in Tolkien's wake and that was mostly comprised of imitations of Tolkien's work, rather than to Tolkien himself, though I realise he directed his criticism very much against Tolkien's work.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Apr 5, 2019 6:46:51 GMT -5
With regard to Moorcock's criticism about Tolkien...
From what I've read of the essay in question, it seems that the core of his complaints against Tolkien are rooted in class war, rather than any real critical evaluation of his works. For example, he seems to have a real problem with Tolkien's knowledge of languages and his scholarly adaptation of folklore, dismissing them as the folly of the idle upper-classes (I'm paraphrasing here).
In short, Tolkien was far too educated for Moorcock's tastes -- as if education, scholary pursuits and knowledge of folklore can only be in the possession of the upper-classes. Clearly that's an idiotic, reductionist conclusion, but it also smacks of the strange phenomenon of the working class wanting to keep the working classes stupid. We can't have good, honest working class boys getting above their station, can we? Basically, Moorcock doesn't like Tolkien because he's posh.
He also criticises the anti-technological undercurrents of Tolkien's stories and, what he sees as, a bourgeois love of the bucolic countryside. But as thwhtguardian points out above, Tolkien was writing in a post-World War 1 era that naturally wanted to embrace the rural beauty of traditional British life, after the horrors of the trenches. In addition, Tolkien genuinely loved the English countryside and was very concerned with the post-industrial destruction of that landscape, along with the encroachment on nature by urban sprawl. In this regard, he was way ahead of his time. He's what we would call today an environmentalist. Time and again his works put forward the idea that if you destroy the natural world, there will be consequences. This message is at its most blatant in the march of the Tree Ents against Isengard, and it's a message that is still thoroughly modern in 2019.
Moorcock also complains that LOTRs is just "escapist literature", as if that's a valid criticism. Well, d'oh...of course it's escapist literature: it's called "fantasy" for a reason. It also seems that he's misunderstood the ending of LOTRs because, far from being a retreat back into an old-fashioned, cosy, rural idyll, as he claims, the end of the book is actually a bit of a downer. The underlying theme of the ending LOTRs -- inspired, no doubt, by the events of World War I and II -- is that sometimes, things happen that are so bad, so terrible, that things can never go back to the way they were. Even if the heroes win.
So yeah, I think Moorcock has misunderstood key elements of LOTRs and is basically playing the part of a working class hero, railing against Tolkien, the annoying posh boy. In short, he's talking out of his arse.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2019 3:45:43 GMT -5
Humor only a hardcore Tolkien fan might appreciate (I say might...) -M
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2019 18:11:00 GMT -5
Reposting this from the Mego thread in the toy section...
-M
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jul 2, 2019 17:47:17 GMT -5
OK, question for followers of this thread: when you imagine a Balrog, does it have wings? J.R.R. Tolkien himself was never explicit on the point. In LOTRs, in the scene at the bridge of Khazad-dûm, Tolkien says of the beast, "the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings". This is followed shortly afterwards by Tolkien describing the Balrog, as it steps forward onto the bridge, as drawing "itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall." That last sentence would seem definitive if it weren't for the earlier metaphorical reference to the creature's shadow seeming like wings. Myself, I have definitely always imagined the Balrog as having wings. However, that's almost certainly entirely down to the version of the creature seen in the 1978 LOTRs animated film, and the lead minature from Middle-earth Role-playing both having them. Peter Jackson's Balrog also has wings and I think pretty much every Tolkien illustrator has given the creature wings too. However, when you actually look at Tolkien's text, it's much more open to interpretation. I mean, if the Balrog does have wings -- as it's so often depicted -- why didn't it simply fly back out of the chasm of Khazad-dûm after it fell? Maybe it plunged to it's doom precisely because Tolkien never intended it to have wings and be able to fly?
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jul 2, 2019 19:40:13 GMT -5
I always pictured it having wings and only had the books as inspiration until just before the Peter Jackson film came out when the animated films were re-released to capitalize on the feature film. In my head(in much the way we saw in Jackson's version)the Barlog's wings were broken in the battle with Gandalf, which is more than plausible.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2019 19:47:49 GMT -5
I've always pictured them with wings, but like Confessor, miniatures and fantasy art from the Hildebrandt's and rpgs shaped a lot of my visual conceptions of the Middle Earth and its inhabitants. I suppose one could dig through the Silmarillion and the many volumes of the History of Middle Earth to find the descriptions of the Balrogs there, or of the the pre-corrupted Maiar and see if they had wings.
-M
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 2, 2019 19:53:10 GMT -5
The question is quite interesting, Confessor, because balrogs don’t fly. Why would they need actual wings?
The one time I drew a balrog, back in 1980 or so and newly introduced to Tolkien’s prose, it didn’t have wings. It rather looked like a poorly drawn black golem exuding tendrils of shadow, with eyes of fire.
Nowadays, though, I really see a balrog as in Peter Jackson’s film. It’s a powerful rendition.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2019 21:38:11 GMT -5
Amazon Prime released a short little video to introduce the creative on the TV series:
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Post by berkley on Jul 28, 2019 0:58:19 GMT -5
The question is quite interesting, Confessor, because balrogs don’t fly. Why would they need actual wings? The one time I drew a balrog, back in 1980 or so and newly introduced to Tolkien’s prose, it didn’t have wings. It rather looked like a poorly drawn black golem exuding tendrils of shadow, with eyes of fire. Nowadays, though, I really see a balrog as in Peter Jackson’s film. It’s a powerful rendition. It's been so long since I read LotR that I can't quite recall how I pictured the Balrog. In fact, I don't think I ever really formed a well-defined image of it in my head, more a vague impression of shadow and flame that couldn't be seen clearly.
But I do remember the impression that scene left me with, because it was one of the more powerful in the entire book for me, right from the moment when the attacking hordes of Orcs and trolls suddenly becomes quiet and still as the Balrog approaches, an awe-inspiring moment in the book.
I didn't find Jackson's film quite captured its dramatic impact, and in fact can't recall now how the film version of the creature looked.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jul 28, 2019 1:29:42 GMT -5
Amazon Prime released a short little video to introduce the creative on the TV series: Just saw this and was coming here to link it. They certainly have a strong group of talent with solid track records working on the show, but it will still be all about how they execute. Among the others bits that cam to light at the critics dinner where this video was revealed, Orlando Bloom said he was not a part of it and felt he was now too old to play a young Legolas, and one comment form the showrunners seemed to indicate the show (or at least some of the episodes) would be set int he Second Age. -M Yeah, it definitely seems as if they're still going with the Second Age setting. I agree though mrp, the proof of this show will definitely all be in the pudding. It could potentially be great, or it could just be a vacuous piece of crap hack job attempt to turn Tolkien's legendarium into the next Game of Thrones (which is undoubtedly the actual motivation behind this show). I mean, some of the creatives in that video have worked on some fantastic films and TV shows (The Revenant, The Pacific, Toy Story 4, The Sopranos, and the aforementioned Game of Thrones). But a fair few of them have also worked on some right old boll*cks...Star Trek: Edge of Darkness, Suicide Squad, Avengers: Age of Ultron etc. However, I am heartened somewhat that they've got somebody onboard with the title of "Tolkien Scholar." Though I'd never heard of him before, according to Wikipedia, Tom Shippey is regarded as "one of the world's leading academic scholars on the works of J. R. R. Tolkien." That bodes well, as long as he's listened to.
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Post by berkley on Jul 28, 2019 8:20:09 GMT -5
Good or bad, none of the shows their experience is coming from tell me that they'll have a clue how to capture the unique mood or feel of Tolkien's world, not even fantasy stuff like Stranger Things or Game of Thrones or Toy Story. Also, all very American, it seems. It just tells me they have a lot of experience working in American tv, not particularly a good recommendation for this specific series.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Aug 2, 2019 17:12:20 GMT -5
So, here's a tough question that my wife asked me a few days back: Who is your favourite character in Tolkien's legendarium? After wrestling with this for about a week or so -- because there are just...so...many...great characters to choose from -- I'm torn between Aragorn/Strider and Gandalf. But, if there's a gun to my head and I can only pick one, I'm gonna go with Gandalf because he's just such an interesting, wise, entertaining, and generally well-rounded character. I really like Frodo and Bilbo a whole lot too, but they're not my favourites. Samwise Gamgee is a really great character, but I have to be honest and say that I kinda find him slightly annoying at times (although he rocks at other times). Merry and Pippin are good too, but kinda forgettable, despite having some wonderful scenes in LOTRs. Gimli, Legolas and Gollum are all brilliant characters as well, but yeah...I'm gonna pin my colours to the mast and say "Gandalf". How about you? Who's your #1 favourite?
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