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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jan 16, 2020 17:06:41 GMT -5
Christopher Tolkien just passed away, at the age of 95.
Considering that it's thanks to his editing efforts that I ever got to read the Silmarillion, I owe the man a great debt.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jan 16, 2020 17:41:52 GMT -5
Very sad news. I've not, thus far, gotten on terribly well with The Silmarillion, though I do plan to get further than a dozen pages into it one of these days. But I always felt that Christopher Tolkien was a wonderful custodian of Middle-earth and his father's legacy, as well as an incredibly important person in the annals of Tolkien scholarship. In fact, I'm not sure Tolkien scholarship would be a thing without his sorting and editing of his father's unfinished writings.
It was also Christopher Tolkien who drew those wonderful maps in The Lord of the Rings (following his father's instructions, of course), which have so fired my imagination since I first read the books as a teenager. So, for that alone I owe him thanks.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Feb 22, 2020 12:44:39 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2020 14:45:03 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2020 22:32:42 GMT -5
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Post by berkley on Mar 4, 2020 0:40:43 GMT -5
Head shots don’t mean much, but nevertheless, I am so excited to see it getting started.
Perhaps I'm allowing appearances to carry too much weight, but I get the feeling that you can almost tell in advance which ones will be playing Hobbits.
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Post by berkley on Mar 4, 2020 0:43:44 GMT -5
I'm behind a few years on Doctor Who and thus haven't seen the episode he was in. How was he, if anyone here has watched it?
Also, is there no word yet on what sort of character the lead is meant to be?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2020 1:06:15 GMT -5
I'm behind a few years on Doctor Who and thus haven't seen the episode he was in. How was he, if anyone here has watched it? Also, is there no word yet on what sort of character the lead is meant to be?
Can't answer any of those directly, but this article is a pretty good wrap up of what was known about the series through January of this year. It's set in the Second Age and set in and around Numenor, with both a young Galadriel and Sauron playing key roles in the narrative (but not leads). My guess, the lead will be one of the men of Numenor, perhaps one we have seen in Tolkien's works, perhaps a new character introduced specifically for the show. -M
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Post by berkley on Mar 4, 2020 9:13:35 GMT -5
I don't see anyone above who would make a convincing Galadriel but I suppose that's a problem with larger than life, nearly god-like characters in general - what merely human actor could? Similarly for Sauron.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Mar 4, 2020 17:40:48 GMT -5
I picked up this 1981 book about J.R.R. Tolkien's works by Katheryn F. Crabbe for the cheap, cheap price of £2.99... It was placed in the biography section of the secondhand book shop where I found it, but actually it only features a brief biographical section. The majority of the book is literary criticism consisting of a series of essays, each one discussing Tolkien's major works ( The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, and The Silmarillion) and a final one focusing on secondary works, such as Farmer Giles of Ham and Tree and Leaf. I've only read about a quarter of the book so far, and while I don't agree with everything Crabbe has to say, she writes well and does make some rather interesting points. All in all, this is a nice little book and well worth the price I paid for it.
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Post by berkley on Mar 6, 2020 2:04:13 GMT -5
I might have a look for that. My impression is that Tolkien hasn't received a lot of attention from serious academic literary criticism, often being dismissed as a superficial writer of popular fantasy. I don't know if Crabbe's book falls into that category of "serious" criticism, but any sort of effort at all would be interesting.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2020 2:16:47 GMT -5
I might have a look for that. My impression is that Tolkien hasn't received a lot of attention from serious academic literary criticism, often being dismissed as a superficial writer of popular fantasy. I don't know if Crabbe's book falls into that category of "serious" criticism, but any sort of effort at all would be interesting. W.H.Auden did a lot of literary criticism of Tolkien over the years, most of it in periodicals like the NY Times supplements, not sure if it was ever collected. I remember finding a lot of stuff when I did my high school honors term paper on Tolkien in the spring of '84, but had to get a lot of it on microfilm and such at the time, and Auden's stuff sticks out in my memory, but it wasn't the only serious literary criticism out there at the time. Nearly 40 years later, I am sure there is more out there now, but a lot of it then was focused on the theory of the Ring as an allegory for "the bomb" and other Cold War tinged approaches. -M
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Post by berkley on Mar 6, 2020 2:31:58 GMT -5
I might have a look for that. My impression is that Tolkien hasn't received a lot of attention from serious academic literary criticism, often being dismissed as a superficial writer of popular fantasy. I don't know if Crabbe's book falls into that category of "serious" criticism, but any sort of effort at all would be interesting. W.H.Auden did a lot of literary criticism of Tolkien over the years, most of it in periodicals like the NY Times supplements, not sure if it was ever collected. I remember finding a lot of stuff when I did my high school honors term paper on Tolkien in the spring of '84, but had to get a lot of it on microfilm and such at the time, and Auden's stuff sticks out in my memory, but it wasn't the only serious literary criticism out there at the time. Nearly 40 years later, I am sure there is more out there now, but a lot of it then was focused on the theory of the Ring as an allegory for "the bomb" and other Cold War tinged approaches. -M Which Tolkien always denied, of course - I mean that the LotR was an allegory of any kind, WWII, Cold War, or whatever the case might be. I believe him, but at the same time I'm one of those people who thinks that the author's conscious intentions are only part of the story when it comes to the criticism or interpretation of any given work.
Not that I find the Ring=atomic bomb, etc idea particularly convincing or even interesting, myself. I met a guy back in the 80s who thought Elric's sword was to be viewed in this way, so it seems to have been a way of reading any powerful fantasy weapon that was very attractive for some people.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
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Post by Confessor on Mar 6, 2020 11:59:06 GMT -5
I might have a look for that. My impression is that Tolkien hasn't received a lot of attention from serious academic literary criticism, often being dismissed as a superficial writer of popular fantasy. I don't know if Crabbe's book falls into that category of "serious" criticism, but any sort of effort at all would be interesting. I'd say that Crabbe's book is a serious and scholarly attempt at criticism, yes. I don't always agree with her conclusions, mind you, but she suggests a number of thought provoking interpretations of events in The Hobbit (which is as far as I've gotten in the book so far). I was thinking of sharing some of her conclusions in this thread, just to open up a bit of discussion. W.H.Auden did a lot of literary criticism of Tolkien over the years, most of it in periodicals like the NY Times supplements, not sure if it was ever collected. I remember finding a lot of stuff when I did my high school honors term paper on Tolkien in the spring of '84, but had to get a lot of it on microfilm and such at the time, and Auden's stuff sticks out in my memory, but it wasn't the only serious literary criticism out there at the time. Nearly 40 years later, I am sure there is more out there now, but a lot of it then was focused on the theory of the Ring as an allegory for "the bomb" and other Cold War tinged approaches. Randel Helms' Tolkien's World (1974), Tom Shippey's The Road to Middle-earth (1982), Mark Eddy Smith's Tolkien's Ordinary Virtues : Exploring the Spiritual Themes of the Lord of the Rings (2001), and Brian Rosebury's Tolkien: A Cultural Phenomenon (2003) are the ones that I know of, though I've never read any of them. Also, I'm pretty sure that the York Notes series of English literature study guides published books on The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit back in the 1980s. Which Tolkien always denied, of course - I mean that the LotR was an allegory of any kind, WWII, Cold War, or whatever the case might be. I believe him, but at the same time I'm one of those people who thinks that the author's conscious intentions are only part of the story when it comes to the criticism or interpretation of any given work.Not that I find the Ring=atomic bomb, etc idea particularly convincing or even interesting, myself. I met a guy back in the 80s who thought Elric's sword was to be viewed in this way, so it seems to have been a way of reading any powerful fantasy weapon that was very attractive for some people. I agree with the bolded. Tolkien's works -- LOTRs especially! -- absolutely have allegorical elements in them. I don't care how much Tolkien insisted that they didn't. Mind you, I don't subscribe to the "ring=the atom bomb" theory; that's much too neat and tidy to be true, I think. Clearly though, the devastating events of the War of the Ring were heavily influenced by Tolkien's own experiences on the First World War battlefields and, to a slightly lesser extent, World War II, which was raging as he wrote the LOTRs. For example, there's that moving passage in The Fellowship of the Ring where Frodo says to Gandalf, "I wish it need not have happened in my time" in relation to the rise of Sauron and the war that is threatening to engulf Middle-earth, and the wizard replies, "So do I, and so do all who live to see such times." That's Tolkien's experiences of war and his own anxieties about the safety of his son Christopher, who was serving in North Africa with the RAF in WW2, coming through on the page right there. Also, the main takeaway from the ending of The Return of the King, where Frodo is unable to find solace from all he had witnessed, even though the war was won, is absolutely an allegory for Tolkien's own feelings after World War I. A conflict in which he had lost all but one of his close friends. Likewise, the destruction of the southern edge of Fangorn Forest by Saruman's forces is absolutely an allegory for the destruction of parts of rural Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire by the enncroachment of roads, houses and modern industry in the post-war era. The moral of the Ents' march to overthrow the evil wizard, being that if you f**k with the environment, there will be consequences! Such allegorical readings of these parts of the story are absolutely justified in my view, even if they were unconcious on the part of the author.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Mar 7, 2020 8:17:22 GMT -5
I might have a look for that. My impression is that Tolkien hasn't received a lot of attention from serious academic literary criticism, often being dismissed as a superficial writer of popular fantasy. I don't know if Crabbe's book falls into that category of "serious" criticism, but any sort of effort at all would be interesting. I'd say that Crabbe's book is a serious and scholarly attempt at criticism, yes. I don't always agree with her conclusions, mind you, but she suggests a number of thought provoking interpretations of events in The Hobbit (which is as far as I've gotten in the book so far). I was thinking of sharing some of her conclusions in this thread, just to open up a bit of discussion. W.H.Auden did a lot of literary criticism of Tolkien over the years, most of it in periodicals like the NY Times supplements, not sure if it was ever collected. I remember finding a lot of stuff when I did my high school honors term paper on Tolkien in the spring of '84, but had to get a lot of it on microfilm and such at the time, and Auden's stuff sticks out in my memory, but it wasn't the only serious literary criticism out there at the time. Nearly 40 years later, I am sure there is more out there now, but a lot of it then was focused on the theory of the Ring as an allegory for "the bomb" and other Cold War tinged approaches. Randel Helms' Tolkien's World (1974), Tom Shippey's The Road to Middle-earth (1982), Mark Eddy Smith's Tolkien's Ordinary Virtues : Exploring the Spiritual Themes of the Lord of the Rings (2001), and Brian Rosebury's Tolkien: A Cultural Phenomenon (2003) are the ones that I know of, though I've never read any of them. Also, I'm pretty sure that the York Notes series of English literature study guides published books on The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit back in the 1980s. Which Tolkien always denied, of course - I mean that the LotR was an allegory of any kind, WWII, Cold War, or whatever the case might be. I believe him, but at the same time I'm one of those people who thinks that the author's conscious intentions are only part of the story when it comes to the criticism or interpretation of any given work.Not that I find the Ring=atomic bomb, etc idea particularly convincing or even interesting, myself. I met a guy back in the 80s who thought Elric's sword was to be viewed in this way, so it seems to have been a way of reading any powerful fantasy weapon that was very attractive for some people. I agree with the bolded. Tolkien's works -- LOTRs especially! -- absolutely have allegorical elements in them. I don't care how much Tolkien insisted that they didn't. Mind you, I don't subscribe to the "ring=the atom bomb" theory; that's much too neat and tidy to be true, I think. Clearly though, the devastating events of the War of the Ring were heavily influenced by Tolkien's own experiences on the First World War battlefields and, to a slightly lesser extent, World War II, which was raging as he wrote the LOTRs. For example, there's that moving passage in The Fellowship of the Ring where Frodo says to Gandalf, "I wish it need not have happened in my time" in relation to the rise of Sauron and the war that is threatening to engulf Middle-earth, and the wizard replies, "So do I, and so do all who live to see such times." That's Tolkien's experiences of war and his own anxieties about the safety of his son Christopher, who was serving in North Africa with the RAF in WW2, coming through on the page right there. Also, the main takeaway from the ending of The Return of the King, where Frodo is unable to find solace from all he had witnessed, even though the war was won, is absolutely an allegory for Tolkien's own feelings after World War I. A conflict in which he had lost all but one of his close friends. Likewise, the destruction of the southern edge of Fangorn Forest by Saruman's forces is absolutely an allegory for the destruction of parts of rural Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire by the enncroachment of roads, houses and modern industry in the post-war era. The moral of the Ents' march to overthrow the evil wizard, being that if you f**k with the environment, there will be consequences! Such allegorical readings of these parts of the story are absolutely justified in my view, even if they were unconscious on the part of the author. I think unconscious is the best way to put it. Tolkien wasn't being disingenuous when he said that his works were non-allegorical but at the same time I really think it would be impossible to live through both world wars and not have that experience permeate your entire being to the point that your work reflects the anxieties and horrors of that time.
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