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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2020 8:37:40 GMT -5
Also, if the film is accurate, I believe Christopher Tolkien was named after one of the members of that circle of friends.
-M
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2020 12:47:24 GMT -5
-M
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Post by rberman on Mar 27, 2020 8:27:22 GMT -5
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Post by thwhtguardian on Mar 29, 2020 7:07:50 GMT -5
I'm a little disappointed that the cave troll didn't get a giant lightsaber.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Apr 27, 2020 9:55:42 GMT -5
I was thinking the other day about the lack of female characters in Hergé's Tintin books and, of course, it's much the same in Tolkien's writing too -- or at least, it is in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. In Hergé's case, he reckoned that because he drew somewhat exaggerated caricatures he never wanted to draw women in that manner. He felt it was unchivalrous to do so. But I got to wondering what Tolkien's excuse was? Of course, there were some female characters who played very important roles in Tolkien's works – Galadriel, Arwen, Éowyn and Luthien all come to mind. The actions of these women directly effected the plot of their respective books, and they are all depicted as strong and brave and powerful women in their own right. But, I think we have to be honest and admit that, regardless of how important they might have been to the story, these female characters were all supporting characters or co-stars, in modern movie-making parlance. There isn't a single female character who occupies a starring role in The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings. When thinking about this, the first thing that strikes me is that Tolkien's own close circle of friends (excepting his wife) was very much a male dominated environment. There were no female authors or poets in the Inklings, for example. Of course, we should keep in mind that back in early-to-mid 20th century Britain it was very much the norm for the "man of the house" to socialise with male friends without his wife...especially if he was going to the pub. In fact, as recently as the early 1980s, it was not uncommon for pubs in Britain to have a public bar and a lounge bar, the latter being a smaller, better decorated bar where it was socially acceptable for a respectable woman to be seen (usually in the company of a gentleman). If a woman was seen in the public bar – especially if she was alone – then it was seen as an indication of her low morals. However, we must also note that Tolkien's fellow Inkling and close friend C.S. Lewis had plenty of strong females in his Narnia books, such as the girls Lucy and Susan, and even the White Witch. So, I'm dubious about Tolkien's male-dominated social circle being an entirely valid reason for the lack of females in his books. The other thing to bear in mind is that Tolkien was writing in a pre-civil rights/women's liberation era. It perhaps wouldn't have occurred to him to make sure that women were adequately represented (in the modern sense of the word) in his books. But it also seems to me to be a pretty deliberate decision on his part. I mean, there really are no female characters in The Hobbit at all! That can't just be a coincidence. That has to be a deliberate decision. The situation is a bit better (from a feminist point of view) in the LOTRs, with Éowyn in particular being a proud, feisty female character, although she's still a supporting character. The other thing to bear in mind with Eowyn is that, while she might have marched out to war as a proud shieldmaiden alongside the men – and even though she is able to slay the the Witch-king of Angmar, when no male can – she eventually expresses a longing for a more traditionally feminine role. This leaves us to conclude that she is not entirely happy being a shieldmaiden and would rather be a housewife. So, is Tolkien's message here that while women can be strong and achieve things that men simply cannot, deep down they long for the true happiness that only comes from being a home-maker? Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to paint Tolkien as a terrible misogynist here at all. I believe that he cared deeply for individual women and respected his female work colleagues immensely. But I am saying that the lack of female "stars" in his books was a deliberate omission and I'd like to understand a bit more about why that is. Thoughts anyone?
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Post by rberman on Apr 27, 2020 10:35:37 GMT -5
The paucity of female characters is indisuptable. I chalk it up to (1) the age/culture in which Tolkien lived and about which he wrote, and (2) the nature of the heroic Norse epics that fueled his imagination, e.g. Beowulf, which he was known to quote at length in the original tongue. It's the same reason that everybody is white, except those nasty brown people who live down south in the desert (Haradrim for Tolkien, Calormen for C.S. Lewis). The cultural memory of Ottoman incursions was still very strong in Europe in the early 20th century.
I didn't read Eowyn's eventual fate as "she learned her lesson to stay in the kitchen." I read it more as "the land was at peace, and everybody settled down," including Aragorn, the hobbits, Faramir, etc. Tolkien lived through WWI's horrors and never conceived of war as an end in itself. Someone who's willing to fight is great. Someone who would rather keep fighting after the war is over needs counseling.
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Post by rberman on Apr 27, 2020 10:51:34 GMT -5
A goofy thought that just occurred to me: Since dwarven women have beards, if somebody claimed that one or more of the 13 dwarves were women, who's to say?
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Apr 27, 2020 10:58:47 GMT -5
I didn't read Eowyn's eventual fate as "she learned her lesson to stay in the kitchen." I read it more as "the land was at peace, and everybody settled down," including Aragorn, the hobbits, Faramir, etc. Tolkien lived through WWI's horrors and never conceived of war as an end in itself. Someone who's willing to fight is great. Someone who would rather keep fighting after the war is over needs counseling. That's a very good point, and the lasting impact of WWI's legacy, when everybody just wanted to get back to the humdrum of daily life, is especially relevant I think. To be clear though, I wasn't saying that I necessarily read Eowyn's character arc as one of a shieldmaiden who couldn't find true happiness until she was in the kitchen cooking dinner for her man. I was just pointing out that you could certainly read that interpretation into it if you so wished.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Apr 27, 2020 11:08:36 GMT -5
A goofy thought that just occurred to me: Since dwarven women have beards, if somebody claimed that one or more of the 13 dwarves were women, who's to say? Ha! Well I'm sure the text of The Hobbit specifically refers to them all as being male -- either collectively or by individually referring to each dwarf as "he" or perhaps using the masculine determiner "his" or by referring to them as sons/farthers perhaps? If the above wasn't true it's inconceivable that we wouldn't have heard this as a fan theory before now. 😄
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Post by rberman on Apr 27, 2020 12:19:35 GMT -5
I didn't read Eowyn's eventual fate as "she learned her lesson to stay in the kitchen." I read it more as "the land was at peace, and everybody settled down," including Aragorn, the hobbits, Faramir, etc. Tolkien lived through WWI's horrors and never conceived of war as an end in itself. Someone who's willing to fight is great. Someone who would rather keep fighting after the war is over needs counseling. That's a very good point, and the lasting impact of WWI's legacy, when everybody just wanted to get back to the humdrum of daily life, is especially relevant I think. To be clear though, I wasn't saying that I necessarily read Eowyn's character arc as one of a shieldmaiden who couldn't find true happiness until she was in the kitchen cooking dinner for her man. I was just pointing out that you could certainly read that interpretation into it if you so wished. Oh sure. People bring their own agendas to texts all the time. Not doing so is the harder thing. Besides, Eowyn was royalty. She wouldn't be in the kitchen. She'd be engaged in royal women's work, making high-end clothing, like the fancy White Tree banner made by Arwen that the sons of Elrond present to Aragorn at Dunharrow so he can recruit the spirit army to his cause. As far as WW1 and WW2, they seemed to re-orient the European consciousness, demoting the Ottoman invasions to "something that happened a long time ago" rather than "go-to bogeymen." The first generation of Tolkien clones seemed to follow his lead. Thus in David Eddings' Belgariad fantasy novels in the 1980s, the good guys live on idyllic farms in the northwest (read: European) corner of the world and must venture south and east (read: Turkey and the Middle East) to defeat the bad guys on their own turf, just like the hobbits traveling from the Shire to Mordor. Robert Jordan's settlement of Two Rivers (in The Wheel of Time) is Northwest as well, on a large continent. I believe there's another large continent south of it as well. George R.R. Martin was certainly thinking of Great Britain when he put his Seven Kingdoms (in A Song of Fire and Ice) on a large island off the northwest coast of a continent characterized by wide, hot plains. Terry Brooks, one of Tolkien's most slavish imitators, nevertheless placed his bucolic homestead (Shady Vale) in the southwest corner of the map, with the heroes traveling north on their quest. Piers Anthony jokingly made his land of Xanth shaped like Florida and located on the southeast corner of a large continent, but within that area, Bink (protagonist of the first book, A Spell for Chameleon) lives in "North Village." Other examples/counter-examples?
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Post by berkley on Apr 27, 2020 21:55:26 GMT -5
I probably haven't read enough post-Tolkien fantasy to come up with any observations. As far as his 19th century predecessors go, I think George McDonald and William Morris both had a more prominent female presence in their books, in general. Have't read enough Dunsany to say.
The treatment of the feminine in Tolkien is certainly problematic and interesting to speculate about. Obviously a lot of it comes from Tolkien's background and era, but when we compare him to other writers of a similar milieu it becomes apparent that that doesn't explain everything.
I forget whi it was exactly now, but I once read a quote from a well-known English female novelist to the effect that she found reading Tolkien very soothing because of the near-complete absence of sexual tension in his stories, and perhaps there's a clue there: perhaps it wasn't so much the feminine he was avoiding as sexuality, even in its sublimated form of romantic love, apart from a few highly-idealised exceptions that are so ethereal as to prove the point.
On the whole, I'd disagree about CS Lewis: I think he had a nasty, almost sneering attitude towards anything that snacked of progressivism (is that a word?) when it came to women's rights or their place in society beyond their traditional subordinate role. It comes out especially in the space trilogy, the last two books in particular, but I also believe it's no coincidence that his evil "Dark Lord" character in Narnia was a witch.
From this POV, I think it's to Tolkien's credit that he was able to create a Galadriel rather than a White Witch. Though equally traditional in his outlook, I think he leaned more towards the positive side of Victorian or Edwardian sexism, the sort of veneration of women, placing them on a pedestal as inherently more pure and virtuous than men, whereas Lewis saw them as a threat that had to be kept in their place.
Re Eowyn, it's been decades since I read LotR, but my recollection is that Tolkien dropped the ball with her a bit: specifically, her pining after Aragorn made her come across as weak and infatuated, forced into an unfeminine, warrior's role by frustration at her failure to achieve the romance she sought, all of which undermined what should have been her heroic status. But I read it as a young teenager so maybe I'll feel differently when I come to it again.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2020 15:14:03 GMT -5
Interesting interview with Tolkien from the 1960s...
-M
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Post by berkley on Jun 4, 2020 13:29:54 GMT -5
Always nice to hear Tolkien speak about his own creation. It was interesting to hear how often he brings up CS Lewis's Space Trilogy to compare and contrast to LotR. I also liked the part where he talks about the Valar, and the role of the divine in LotR, which then merges into one of the most interesting bits, the influence of the myth of Atlantis on his story of the the fall of Numenor, from around the 6:00 to 8:10 marks.
BTW, the pronunciation of Sauron given in LotR is saʊrɒn - I remember when I saw this in the appendices or wherever it was thinking I'd been mentally pronouncing it wrong all the through reading the story itself - but doesn't it sound here as if Tolkien is saying "Sor-on"? Maybe it's just his mumbling, Oxford don's accent, which isn't always easy to decipher.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 4, 2020 19:11:21 GMT -5
Mmmmmmh... Gérard Depardieu as Aragorn doesn't work at all for me...
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Post by berkley on Jun 4, 2020 22:58:47 GMT -5
Mmmmmmh... Gérard Depardieu as Aragorn doesn't work at all for me... Exactly. And I don't really care for their generically pretty blonde princess as Galadriel either. I've always felt a bit ambivalent about the Hildebrandts' Tolkien paintings, and I think this is why: I like their landscapes and backgrounds but I really don't like their characters.
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