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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jan 18, 2021 12:54:06 GMT -5
It's interesting (and a bit shocking!) to listen to Tolkien being interviewed by someone who isn't as obsequious as a modern fan would be! It makes for a better interview, in my opinion.
Tolkien sounds much more energetic than I expected! (The part about Dwarves and the Jews surprised me, I must say).
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jan 19, 2021 22:37:20 GMT -5
I began a leisurely re-reading of The Lord of the Rings again today and got through the Prologue and the first chapter, "A Long-Expected Party". I noticed that during his eleventy-first birthday party speech, Bilbo mentions that he was 51 when he and the Dwarves escaped from the Wood Elves in The Hobbit. That means that there's roughly 60 years between the death of Smaug and the Battle of the Five Armies, and the start of LOTRs. That's much longer than I thought. I mean, I must've read this information before, but somehow in my mind I always felt that the LOTRs was probably set 20-30 years after the Hobbit
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jan 28, 2021 2:39:22 GMT -5
I re-read chapter 2 of LOTRs "The Shadow of the Past" last night. Given that the majority of this chapter is just a conversation between Frodo and Gandalf, and also a huge exposition dump, it's surprising that it's so damn readable. The way in which the sense of something not being quite right in the wider world begins to reach the Shire, with dark rumours and all manner of strange folks, like Elves and Dwarves, being seen in the Shire is masterfully executed. Likewise, the building realisation of impending danger during Frodo and Gandalf's chat at Bag End, as the wizard recounts all that he's discovered on his travels about Gollum, Sauron, and the Ring, and the revelation that the Dark Lord now knows about the Shire and the name "Baggins" is utterly riveting. I also love how the seriousness of the situation and dark mood of Frodo and Gandalf's discussion is broken by Gandalf discovering Sam Gamgee eavesdropping outside the window. Sam's unbridled enthusiasm for accompanying Frodo when he has to leave the Shire and his excitement at the possibility of seeing Elves really breaks the somber mood of this chapter and suddenly turns Frodo's exile into an adventure. Tolkien really was a hell of a writer. So, my super-nerdy question for you guys is this: there's a scene in this chapter in which Sam is chatting with Ted Sandyman at the Green Dragon inn in Bywater, and Sam relays rumours he's heard of giant Tree-Men crossing the Shire and claims that his cousin Hal recently saw a walking Elm tree up near the North Moors. So, do we think that these "tree-men" might be the missing Ent Wives that Treebeard mentions later on in the story?  |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 28, 2021 10:17:32 GMT -5
I re-read chapter 2 of LOTRs "The Shadow of the Past" last night. Given that the majority of this chapter is just a conversation between Frodo and Gandalf, and also a huge exposition dump, it's surprising that it's so damn readable. The way in which the sense of something not being quite right in the wider world begins to reach the Shire, with dark rumours and all manner of strange folks, like Elves and Dwarves, being seen in the Shire is masterfully executed. Likewise, the building realisation of impending danger during Frodo and Gandalf's chat at Bag End, as the wizard recounts all that he's discovered on his travels about Gollum, Sauron, and the Ring, and the revelation that the Dark Lord now knows about the Shire and the name "Baggins" is utterly riveting. I also love how the seriousness of the situation and dark mood of Frodo and Gandalf's discussion is broken by Gandalf discovering Sam Gamgee eavesdropping outside the window. Sam's unbridled enthusiasm for accompanying Frodo when he has to leave the Shire and his excitement at the possibility of seeing Elves really breaks the somber mood of this chapter and suddenly turns Frodo's exile into an adventure. Tolkien really was a hell of a writer. So, my super-nerdy question for you guys is this: there's a scene in this chapter in which Sam is chatting with Ted Sandyman at the Green Dragon inn in Bywater, and Sam relays rumours he's heard of giant Tree-Men crossing the Shire and claims that his cousin Hal recently saw a walking Elm tree up near the North Moors. So, do we think that these "tree-men" might be the missing Ent Wives that Treebeard mentions later on in the story?  I've always thought those were definitely the Entwives, and it makes sense as the Shire is portrayed as almost like a garden in the middle of desolation. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jan 28, 2021 10:39:54 GMT -5
I re-read chapter 2 of LOTRs "The Shadow of the Past" last night. Given that the majority of this chapter is just a conversation between Frodo and Gandalf, and also a huge exposition dump, it's surprising that it's so damn readable. The way in which the sense of something not being quite right in the wider world begins to reach the Shire, with dark rumours and all manner of strange folks, like Elves and Dwarves, being seen in the Shire is masterfully executed. Likewise, the building realisation of impending danger during Frodo and Gandalf's chat at Bag End, as the wizard recounts all that he's discovered on his travels about Gollum, Sauron, and the Ring, and the revelation that the Dark Lord now knows about the Shire and the name "Baggins" is utterly riveting. I also love how the seriousness of the situation and dark mood of Frodo and Gandalf's discussion is broken by Gandalf discovering Sam Gamgee eavesdropping outside the window. Sam's unbridled enthusiasm for accompanying Frodo when he has to leave the Shire and his excitement at the possibility of seeing Elves really breaks the somber mood of this chapter and suddenly turns Frodo's exile into an adventure. Tolkien really was a hell of a writer. So, my super-nerdy question for you guys is this: there's a scene in this chapter in which Sam is chatting with Ted Sandyman at the Green Dragon inn in Bywater, and Sam relays rumours he's heard of giant Tree-Men crossing the Shire and claims that his cousin Hal recently saw a walking Elm tree up near the North Moors. So, do we think that these "tree-men" might be the missing Ent Wives that Treebeard mentions later on in the story? It's an accepted theory, but I always leaned toward them just being Ents. Here's an impressively researched essay on the subject; Tolkien wrote in one letter that he thought the Entwives were all gone, but in some others he seems not to have decided what had become of them, leaving their status as mysterious as that of Tom Bombadil. |
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jan 28, 2021 12:21:33 GMT -5
I re-read chapter 2 of LOTRs "The Shadow of the Past" last night. Given that the majority of this chapter is just a conversation between Frodo and Gandalf, and also a huge exposition dump, it's surprising that it's so damn readable. The way in which the sense of something not being quite right in the wider world begins to reach the Shire, with dark rumours and all manner of strange folks, like Elves and Dwarves, being seen in the Shire is masterfully executed. Likewise, the building realisation of impending danger during Frodo and Gandalf's chat at Bag End, as the wizard recounts all that he's discovered on his travels about Gollum, Sauron, and the Ring, and the revelation that the Dark Lord now knows about the Shire and the name "Baggins" is utterly riveting. I also love how the seriousness of the situation and dark mood of Frodo and Gandalf's discussion is broken by Gandalf discovering Sam Gamgee eavesdropping outside the window. Sam's unbridled enthusiasm for accompanying Frodo when he has to leave the Shire and his excitement at the possibility of seeing Elves really breaks the somber mood of this chapter and suddenly turns Frodo's exile into an adventure. Tolkien really was a hell of a writer. So, my super-nerdy question for you guys is this: there's a scene in this chapter in which Sam is chatting with Ted Sandyman at the Green Dragon inn in Bywater, and Sam relays rumours he's heard of giant Tree-Men crossing the Shire and claims that his cousin Hal recently saw a walking Elm tree up near the North Moors. So, do we think that these "tree-men" might be the missing Ent Wives that Treebeard mentions later on in the story? It's an accepted theory, but I always leaned toward them just being Ents. Here's an impressively researched essay on the subject; Tolkien wrote in one letter that he thought the Entwives were all gone, but in some others he seems not to have decided what had become of them, leaving their status as mysterious as that of Tom Bombadil. Great link there, RR. Really fascinating article, though largely inconclusive in the final analysis. Maybe that's for the best though. Perhaps it's better left open to interpretation. It certainly could've simply been Ents or maybe even Huorns. The romantic in me likes to think they may've been Entwives though. |
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jan 28, 2021 12:48:17 GMT -5
In chapter 2 of LOTRs, Gandalf mentions that he employed Aragorn's help in finding Gollum, which put me in mind of an excellent 40 minute fan-film I watched on YouTube a few months back. It's called The Hunt For Gollum and is very much in the style of the Peter Jackson LOTRs movies. The production values are really high and I'm sure anyone who follows this thread will enjoy watching it. It really is a joy.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jan 28, 2021 14:10:13 GMT -5
Impressive! Most impressive.
I am floored by what dedicated fans on a shoestring budget manage to create!
Thanks for posting that, Confessor! I was back in Middle-Earth for a while, which is always a good feeling!
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Post by berkley on Jan 28, 2021 15:12:15 GMT -5
I'm behind on the videos, still have to finish the Tolkien interview.
I wonder if the Entwives are absent because the idea of separate female trees is problematic a botanical POV, given the nature of plant reproduction? But then, the Ents we do meet in LotR seem to be unequivocally male personalities in some sense, so it isn't likely Tolkien was thinking in those terms.
Another idea that just occurred to me is, what if the Entwives weren't sentient trees like the Ents but something more along the lines of the Dryads of Greek mythology? Again, I think it's pretty clear that this isn't what Tolkien had in mind but it's an interesting thought.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jan 28, 2021 15:47:11 GMT -5
I'm behind on the videos, still have to finish the Tolkien interview. I wonder if the Entwives are absent because the idea of separate female trees is problematic a botanical POV, given the nature of plant reproduction? But then, the Ents we do meet in LotR seem to be unequivocally male personalities in some sense, so it isn't likely Tolkien was thinking in those terms. Another idea that just occurred to me is, what if the Entwives weren't sentient trees like the Ents but something more along the lines of the Dryads of Greek mythology? Again, I think it's pretty clear that this isn't what Tolkien had in mind but it's an interesting thought. I suspect the Ents made up that story about "Entwives" so they could brag to their Human, Elf and Dwarf friends that they do have a girlfriend; you know, the type of girlfriend who "lives in a different town and you've never met her and you don't know her but I'm totally in a relationship, yeah, totally". Ents must be hermaphrodites or something and are embarrassed to admit it! |
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Post by berkley on Jan 28, 2021 16:26:18 GMT -5
I'm behind on the videos, still have to finish the Tolkien interview. I wonder if the Entwives are absent because the idea of separate female trees is problematic a botanical POV, given the nature of plant reproduction? But then, the Ents we do meet in LotR seem to be unequivocally male personalities in some sense, so it isn't likely Tolkien was thinking in those terms. Another idea that just occurred to me is, what if the Entwives weren't sentient trees like the Ents but something more along the lines of the Dryads of Greek mythology? Again, I think it's pretty clear that this isn't what Tolkien had in mind but it's an interesting thought. I suspect the Ents made up that story about "Entwives" so they could brag to their Human, Elf and Dwarf friends that they do have a girlfriend; you know, the type of girlfriend who "lives in a different town and you've never met her and you don't know her but I'm totally in a relationship, yeah, totally". Ents must be hermaphrodites or something and are embarrassed to admit it!
"Yeah, I'd introduce you but she isn't here right now. Her name's, uh, uh, ... Galadrielm. You may have heard of her, she's quite famous ..."
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jan 31, 2021 22:48:23 GMT -5
It strikes me that Frodo finally agreeing to sell Bag End to Lobelia Sackville-Baggins, just as he'd been instructed to leave the Shire by Gandalf because the Nazgûl are looking for Bilbo and the ring, was a pretty crappy thing to do. Of course, as it turns out, the Black Riders learn that Baggins has left the Shire before they actually reach Bag End, but that was largely down to luck; they could've quite easily reached Bag End and killed her. I know Lobelia was a particularly unpleasant individual and neither Bilbo nor Frodo liked her at all, but to place her in direct danger from the Black Riders, as Frodo himself flees, seems at best irresponsible and at worst rather calculating and unheroic.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Feb 1, 2021 8:02:25 GMT -5
It strikes me that Frodo finally agreeing to sell Bag End to Lobelia Sackville-Baggins, just as he'd been instructed to leave the Shire by Gandalf because the Nazgûl are looking for Bilbo and the ring, was a pretty crappy thing to do. Of course, as it turns out, the Black Riders learn that Baggins has left the Shire before they actually reach Bag End, but that was largely down to luck; they could've quite easily reached Bag End and killed her. I know Lobelia was a particularly unpleasant individual and neither Bilbo nor Frodo liked her at all, but to place her in direct danger from the Black Riders, as Frodo himself flees, seems at best irresponsible and at worst rather calculating and unheroic. I'd blame Frodo's intrinsic decency and lack of exposure to actual evil for that irresponsible decision. He may have thought that no harm would come to Lobelia and the other Sackville-Baggins since they had nothing to do with the ring, not considering that Sauron's envoys might slaughter the entire household (and the whole of Hobbiton, really) just on the off-chance that someone would be scared into revealing something useful). |
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Post by berkley on Feb 1, 2021 9:38:57 GMT -5
It strikes me that Frodo finally agreeing to sell Bag End to Lobelia Sackville-Baggins, just as he'd been instructed to leave the Shire by Gandalf because the Nazgûl are looking for Bilbo and the ring, was a pretty crappy thing to do. Of course, as it turns out, the Black Riders learn that Baggins has left the Shire before they actually reach Bag End, but that was largely down to luck; they could've quite easily reached Bag End and killed her. I know Lobelia was a particularly unpleasant individual and neither Bilbo nor Frodo liked her at all, but to place her in direct danger from the Black Riders, as Frodo himself flees, seems at best irresponsible and at worst rather calculating and unheroic. I'd blame Frodo's intrinsic decency and lack of exposure to actual evil for that irresponsible decision. He may have thought that no harm would come to Lobelia and the other Sackville-Baggins since they had nothing to do with the ring, not considering that Sauron's envoys might slaughter the entire household (and the whole of Hobbiton, really) just on the off-chance that someone would be scared into revealing something useful).
A more negative view might see this as the hidden or dark side of the Shire as a kind of idealised vision of a certain comfortable, cosy, upper middle-class worldview that is mostly set on maintaining its own comfortable position in life. That sounds harmless enough in itself, though a little materialistic , but what if maintaining that comfortable position means making some hard-headed decisions without too much regard for anyone else's well-being as long as it doesn't affect yours?
While the English often thought of themselves as having a down-to-earth, commmon sense approach to things in contrast to Continental airy-fairyness, they were often seen by other Europeans as being too heavily focussed on everyday, practical, material concerns - "a nation of shopkeepers", someone once famously said. I wonder if this action of Frodo's might be seen as a reflection of that - though I think it would have been totally unconscious on Tolkien's part, if there's anything to the idea at all.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Feb 1, 2021 9:39:07 GMT -5
It strikes me that Frodo finally agreeing to sell Bag End to Lobelia Sackville-Baggins, just as he'd been instructed to leave the Shire by Gandalf because the Nazgûl are looking for Bilbo and the ring, was a pretty crappy thing to do. Of course, as it turns out, the Black Riders learn that Baggins has left the Shire before they actually reach Bag End, but that was largely down to luck; they could've quite easily reached Bag End and killed her. I know Lobelia was a particularly unpleasant individual and neither Bilbo nor Frodo liked her at all, but to place her in direct danger from the Black Riders, as Frodo himself flees, seems at best irresponsible and at worst rather calculating and unheroic. I'd blame Frodo's intrinsic decency and lack of exposure to actual evil for that irresponsible decision. He may have thought that no harm would come to Lobelia and the other Sackville-Baggins since they had nothing to do with the ring, not considering that Sauron's envoys might slaughter the entire household (and the whole of Hobbiton, really) just on the off-chance that someone would be scared into revealing something useful). That's a fair point actually. Frodo does seem quite unaware of the evil and danger that the Black Riders represent when he leaves Hobbiton, despite Gandalf's warning. Unlike the film, his departure is quite drawn out in the book, waiting, as he does, until his Birthday in September, some 5 and a half months after Gandalf had told him what the ring was, of Sauron's return, and of the nine Black Riders who would be coming looking for it. Even when he and the other Hobbits are finally on the road, they aren't as careful as they could be initially, lighting fires and sleeping without watch for instance. It's not until Frodo and company encounter Gildor and the High Elves, after their first two encounters with a Black Rider, that they begin to take the threat a bit more seriously. But even when they reach the Prancing Pony at Bree, Aragorn remarks on the Hobbits' lack of understanding of how much danger they are in. |
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