shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,874
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Post by shaxper on Jan 16, 2018 11:29:29 GMT -5
Claremont was running on all cylinders from about issue #101 (first Phoenix appearance) through #200 (the trial of Magneto, just before the return of Jean Grey after her death on the moon). I would start it three issues earlier but otherwise totally agree. For me, X-Men #98 was the true start of the series, as we see the team off duty and just being people for the first time, while the conflict that is ultimately introduced ends up having lasting repercussions for the team. The true strength of Claremont's X-Men was the rich characterizations, which grew and changed in reaction to the events they encountered. The death of Thunderbird aside (which gets largely forgotten pretty quickly) #98 was where all of that began. |
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Post by badwolf on Jan 16, 2018 11:31:43 GMT -5
The Claremont/Byrne era will always be my favorite, but I agree with rberman that Claremont's run is good until around #200 or so. I am not a fan of JRJR's art (#175-on) but there were some great stories in there before the series got bogged down with depressing future stuff.
Specifically, one of my favorite stories that tends to get overshadowed by the ones on either side of it (Dark Phoenix & DoFP), is from X-Men #139-140, a two-parter in which Wolverine goes to Canada to try to make peace with his old friend Mac Hudson. Nightcrawler tags along to "keep him out of trouble" and the story is a great exploration of the friendship between the two, who at the time were my favorite characters (and really, still are.) They also run into the latest victim of the Wendigo curse. Byrne's Wendigo makes earlier renditions look like a joke. I believe these issues are now included in DoFP collections.
Uncanny X-Men #144 is a Cyclops solo story in which he encounters Man-Thing and the demon D'Spayre. It's similar to a MTU story he did with John Byrne, but IMO much better. I wish Brent Anderson had become the regular artist at this time. Dave Cockrum is okay, but not a favorite.
UXM #159 is a Dracula story drawn by Bill Sienkiewicz. 'Nuff Said. It's followed up in UXM Annual #6.
UXM #160 is the story that kicks off Illyana Rasputin's development (cough). And Brent is back! Yay!
The Marvel Graphic Novel "God Loves, Man Kills", maybe the most powerful X-story I've ever read. And we have Brent again!
Wolverine Limited Series by Claremont & Frank Miller.
Magik Limited Series: We find out what happened to Illyana while she was trapped for years in Belasco's realm.
Claremont's New Mutants run is strong from start to finish, and resonated deeply with me as a teen, but some issues that stand out are:
#4 Story of Stevie Hunter (dance instructor & X-Men ally) and a troubled student.
The "Demon Bear Saga" in #18-20 and #21's "Slumber Party".
#45 A tragic tale of prejudice and teen bullying. Probably the saddest comic I've read (It's always the one I think of whenever someone starts a discussion about that.) Also illustrates a fatal flaw in the concept of X-Factor, which I don't think was ever addressed anywhere else because they were too busy wanking over Jean Grey.
Grant Morrison's New X-Men was a shot in the arm after years of dull and confusing rubbish. I didn't care for the final arc, "Here Comes Tomorrow", but the rest is gold.
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Post by batusi on Jan 16, 2018 12:27:04 GMT -5
UNCANNY X-MEN #94-175...almost everything after that was CRAP! Ha, it all went downhill from this point...some gems, but not many.!
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Post by rberman on Jan 16, 2018 14:21:36 GMT -5
The Claremont/Byrne era will always be my favorite, but I agree with rberman that Claremont's run is good until around #200 or so. I am not a fan of JRJR's art (#175-on) but there were some great stories in there before the series got bogged down with depressing future stuff. Specifically, one of my favorite stories that tends to get overshadowed by the ones on either side of it (Dark Phoenix & DoFP), is from X-Men #139-140, a two-parter in which Wolverine goes to Canada to try to make peace with his old friend Mac Hudson. Nightcrawler tags along to "keep him out of trouble" and the story is a great exploration of the friendship between the two, who at the time were my favorite characters (and really, still are.) They also run into the latest victim of the Wendigo curse. Byrne's Wendigo makes earlier renditions look like a joke. I believe these issues are now included in DoFP collections. JRJR's art does weaken the book, I agree. I don't really know why he was given such a flagship title, unless perhaps his ability to make deadlines where the other guys couldn't. Sometimes in a business, consistency trumps quality. I'm a big Alpha Flight fan, at least in Byrne's hands. I left the X-Men/Alpha Flight crossover off of my "read this" list in the earlier post because it doesn't really pay off unless you've read Alpha Flight issues #1-27, but if you want to lump those into the X-universe, then by all means I'd add those to the "Yes, read these" pile. |
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Post by Duragizer on Jan 17, 2018 20:37:18 GMT -5
It's been quite a while since I read any X-Men, but I do recall this: I started losing interest in the title towards the end of Cockrum's second run, and all interest was lost by #168. I forced myself to keep reading, determined to make it to #200 then call it quits, but I gave up at #191. I simply didn't care for what was being done with the characters.
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Post by urrutiap on Jan 17, 2018 22:12:06 GMT -5
Uncanny X Men 173 up to 268 from my younger days are the best issues of Uncanny X Men.
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Post by berkley on Jan 17, 2018 23:18:55 GMT -5
It's funny, when I read the title of this thread my first thought was that I'd pick a few stories from the Claremont/Cockrum/Byrne era, but when I started trying to remember specifics I found the ones that stick out most in my mind are from the earlier era: specifically the issues featuring Ka-Zar, the Juggernaut, and the Stranger. I see from comics.org that these wre all reprinted in 1970, which I'm pretty sure is when I would have read them, rather than in the original issues (X-Men #10 - 13):    If I had to pick a single story, I'd go with the Stranger, which seems to have left the biggest impression. I remember finding it kind of eerie, the whole idea of this being who was so far beyond even the super-powered characters that posed such a threat to the X-Men. But if I had to answer this question in a few years, by which time I imagine I'll had re-read the Claremont era issues, I'm sure I'd pick a few from that era as well. I still think that was the peak of the series, the issues from #94 to around #140 or #150. |
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Post by String on Jan 18, 2018 18:32:57 GMT -5
In general, I love all of Claremont's run, from the very beginning to the very end. The quality of talented artists that he had during that long run is equally impressive, though my personal top favorites are Byrne and Paul Smith.
A few highlights for me other than the seminal favorites of DP and DoFP:
Asgardian Wars (New Mutants Special Edition # 1, Uncanny X-Men Annual # 9, X-Men & Alpha Flight #1-2)
The Brood Saga (Uncanny X-Men #161-167)
UXM #218 - Dazzler, Rogue, Psylocke, and Longshot take on a rampaging Juggernaut
UXM #235-238 - the first Genosha story arc
The Wolverine mini-series with Miller
IMHO, Scott Lobdell and Fabian Nicieza don't receive nowhere near the amount of praise and respect they deserve for picking up the reigns from Claremont. They took the foundations that Claremont built and really expanded it with strong drama and emotion.
A few highlights for me during this period:
X-Cutioner's Song (Uncanny X-Men #294-297, X-Factor #84-86, X-Force #16-18 and X-Men #14-16)
Fatal Attractions (Excalibur #71, Uncanny X-Men #304, Wolverine #75, X-Factor #92, X-Force #25, X-Men #25)
Phalanx Covenant (Cable #16, Excalibur #82, Uncanny X-Men #316-317, Wolverine #85, X-Factor #106, X-Force #38, X-Men #36-37)
Age of Apocalypse deserves it's own recognition. Yes, it had it's bumps but HUGE kudos to Marvel for having the nerve to cancel all then-existing X-titles for a period focusing on an alternate timeline. Overall, it was ambitious and epic and had many long-standing consequences and ramifications.
I have a new-found love and appreciation for Excalibur, especially after finally reading Moore and Davis' Jaspers Warp storyline which was amazing.
Generation X, Exiles, and X-Men 2099 also hold a sweet spot for me too.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jan 18, 2018 19:37:19 GMT -5
In his Action Comics run he had Lana Lang divorce Pete Ross. Started "stalking" Clark. Tried to have Lana break up the Clark/Lois marriage.
In his Avengers run he had Hawkeye advise Capt America to punch more female villains to help with not having a girlfriend.
In his X-Men run he had Polaris act insane (it involved sex & violence).
Do you see a pattern?
He also had Havok get engaged to Lorna, but then realize he really loved Nurse Annie, who was at the mansion because of her mutant son, which caused all sorts of hijinx, except they weren't even remotely entertaining. Austen also wrote the horrid "Nightcrawler's dad is a literal demon" story as well as coming up with the idea that mutants couldn't get AIDS. Alex dumping Lorna for another woman??? That’s about out of character as out of character can be. The demon thing was really stupid. Really. And isn’t it Austen who decided to retcon Lorna into being Magneto’s daughter, even if the whole point of the tale that introduced her in the first place was to make us believe she was Mag’s kid while she actually wasn’t? Or was it some other X-writer’s lousy idea? |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jan 18, 2018 19:55:09 GMT -5
In general, I love all of Claremont's run, from the very beginning to the very end. The quality of talented artists that he had during that long run is equally impressive, though my personal top favorites are Byrne and Paul Smith. A few highlights for me other than the seminal favorites of DP and DoFP: Asgardian Wars (New Mutants Special Edition # 1, Uncanny X-Men Annual # 9, X-Men & Alpha Flight #1-2) The Brood Saga (Uncanny X-Men #161-167) UXM #218 - Dazzler, Rogue, Psylocke, and Longshot take on a rampaging Juggernaut UXM #235-238 - the first Genosha story arc The Wolverine mini-series with Miller IMHO, Scott Lobdell and Fabian Nicieza don't receive nowhere near the amount of praise and respect they deserve for picking up the reigns from Claremont. They took the foundations that Claremont built and really expanded it with strong drama and emotion. A few highlights for me during this period: X-Cutioner's Song (Uncanny X-Men #294-297, X-Factor #84-86, X-Force #16-18 and X-Men #14-16) Fatal Attractions (Excalibur #71, Uncanny X-Men #304, Wolverine #75, X-Factor #92, X-Force #25, X-Men #25) Phalanx Covenant (Cable #16, Excalibur #82, Uncanny X-Men #316-317, Wolverine #85, X-Factor #106, X-Force #38, X-Men #36-37) Age of Apocalypse deserves it's own recognition. Yes, it had it's bumps but HUGE kudos to Marvel for having the nerve to cancel all then-existing X-titles for a period focusing on an alternate timeline. Overall, it was ambitious and epic and had many long-standing consequences and ramifications. I have a new-found love and appreciation for Excalibur, especially after finally reading Moore and Davis' Jaspers Warp storyline which was amazing. Generation X, Exiles, and X-Men 2099 also hold a sweet spot for me too. Im not a huge X-Men fan but you nailed almost all my stories that stand out. Brood Saga, and I like they're return in 232-234, Fatal Attractions, Phalanx Covenant, Age of Apocalypse (my all time favorite) , X-Men 2099 and Exiles. I'd add She Lies With Angels (437-441), Uncanny Annual 18, Ghost Rider (Vol 2) 67-68 (X-Men team up vs Brood), Legion's Quest (lead in to AoA). |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 18, 2018 20:52:42 GMT -5
UNCANNY X-MEN #94-175...almost everything after that was CRAP! Ha, it all went downhill from this point...some gems, but not many.! I never thought anything past 143 was worth reading. When Byrne left, I felt it was a wrap. |
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Post by The Captain on Jan 18, 2018 21:15:12 GMT -5
And isn’t it Austen who decided to retcon Lorna into being Magneto’s daughter, even if the whole point of the tale that introduced her in the first place was to make us believe she was Mag’s kid while she actually wasn’t? Or was it some other X-writer’s lousy idea? Of course it was Austen, because he never met a bad idea he didn't want to put on paper... |
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Post by Mormel on Jan 19, 2018 6:36:04 GMT -5
Lorna isn't the only character Austen did wrong by, pretty much all the X-Men act like whingeing children at one point or another. He also had the tendency to include weird bits like the male X-Men having a stag party and inviting a stripper dressed like Wanda Maximoff. I mean I'm far from a prude, but there's a difference between exotic dancers dressed up like a nurse or a cop, as opposed to dressing up specifically like a person they know and are friends with. That's just icky.
And Brutalis, cool that you also enjoy the Grotesk story from the 60s. I know it's not a big favourite, but I really like that one as well.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 19, 2018 7:14:20 GMT -5
X-Men 2099 is very underappreciated, IMO. Some great character designs there (Halloween Jack, Junkpile, Bloodhawk).
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Post by brutalis on Jan 19, 2018 8:10:34 GMT -5
And Brutalis, cool that you also enjoy the Grotesk story from the 60s. I know it's not a big favourite, but I really like that one as well. My X-Men collection as a teen was few and far between. Only had a handful of issues and those were when the title was in reprints. Much of the X-Men stuff at that time wasn't as interesting or exciting but there are the occasional single issues that were fun. Having the Essential reprint and being able to read them now I have a better liking and enjoyment for the series as a whole before the New X arrived. In junior high I did get the Adams/Steranko reprinted collections and those were simply mind blowing in comparison to all that went before. Always liked their "graduation" costumes,even Angel with his "suspenders" look  Single issue stand outs for me were the 1st issue with Magneto, 2nd issue with the Vanisher, issue 11 with the Stranger, 14/15/16 with the intro of the Sentinels. It was the advent of Chris Claremont teamed with Cockrum and Byrne that the X-Men became a must read for me. |
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