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Post by rberman on Apr 6, 2018 14:21:14 GMT -5
There was some discussion going on in another thread about whether Thanos was a generic cosmic baddie or a character of complex motivations. I thought it might be fun to have a thread reviewing villains who were more interesting than just being "must kill/destroy" agents of doom. Who are your favorites? As an 80s reader, the first one that came to mind was Magneto, who started out as an "I deserve to rule the world" supervillain in X-Men #1 by Lee and Kirby. Over time the articulation of his motives evolved into "Only by ruling the world can I keep my people safe," with a Holocaust survivor backstory added on to add both credibility and a note of pathos. His rehabilitation began in earnest when he's shown mourning the apparent death of Kitty Pryde during a battle with the X-Men in their issue #150 by Claremont and Cockrum: Then he was shown as a possible romantic partner for the Wasp during Secret Wars: It wasn't long until Professor X trusted him enough to become the head of the Xavier School. Later writers returned him to villain status, but even then the tragic/heroic backstory lingered on.
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Post by Prince Hal on Apr 6, 2018 14:44:15 GMT -5
Well, there's Catwoman, whose relationships with Batman, the law, and other criminals was always complicated.
There was a side of me that always felt for Harvey (Two-Face) Dent, at least up trough the 70s. Can't speak for later incarnations.
Silver Age Luthor was a complex cat, too. He was even the super-protector of a planet that nearly worshipped him, and where he had a touching romance with Allura.
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Post by rberman on Apr 6, 2018 14:54:57 GMT -5
I was not very familiar with Daredevil prior to watching Season 1 of his Netflix series, and I found Kingpin's relationship with Vanessa, by far, to be the most interesting part of the plot. Credit goes to Vincent D'Onofrio for his nuanced portrayal of Wilson Fisk, but the underlying comic book story works as well. Families help to humanize villains, giving them credible motives for doing horrible things, while at the same time giving them a weakness that can bring then down either within or without. Kingpin's wife Vanessa sometimes was just a bystander to his evil plots: Sometimes was the source of family drama through challenges to his criminal ambitions: And sometimes was a pawn manipulated by both villainous and heroic foes to get the powerful crime lord to move in one direction or another:
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Apr 6, 2018 16:04:48 GMT -5
Wow that last panel! Anyone know what issues/title that took place in?
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Post by The Captain on Apr 6, 2018 16:15:14 GMT -5
Wow that last panel! Anyone know what issues/title that took place in? Daredevil #180, during the original Frank Miller run.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Apr 6, 2018 16:30:15 GMT -5
Wow that last panel! Anyone know what issues/title that took place in? Daredevil #180, during the original Frank Miller run. Gracais. I only ever read his second run on DD and sold my copy of #148 some time ago. I'll have to check out a TPB and read it finally.
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Post by codystarbuck on Apr 6, 2018 23:25:26 GMT -5
Luthor, in the hands of Elliot Maggin was very nuanced, especially in his two Superman novels. Maggin really got inside his head and showed him to be more than a "Mwa-ha-ha" villain, like in Challenge of the Superfriends. The guy sleeps in a sarcophagus, on Snoopy sheets! He worships Einstein, Clark Kent was his best friend, in Smallville, and he uses a string of identities to create and hide various scientific deivces and inventions. He travels the world as a crusading doctor, finding miracle cures for diseases, while also staging theft of scientific documents. Maggin also wrote a more rounded supporting cast, especially Lois and Steve Lombard, the sportscaster who attempts to bully Clark.
Ra's al Ghul, in Denny O'Neil and Mike Barr's hands was always more of a "t'weener." Many of his plans would greatly improve the world, even if a portion of the population had to die to achieve it. He is honorable and willing to stop worse evil. He's a more balanced version of Fu Manchu (who inspired the character).
Nash, the new Mist, in James Robinson's Starman was a fascinating character. Verbally abused by her father, in love with Jack, until he kills her brother Kyle, the only one who was kind to her and showed her love.
Johnny Bates, in Alan Moore's Marvelman is another: the child sidekick who grew up as the most powerful man on the planet and became a monster because of it. Literally inside him is a small, frightened boy, who had been trapped for 20 years.
Darkseid, in Kirby's hands, was quite complex, remarking of the nobility of foes and carrying a forbidden love, that led to his lover's murder, on order of his mother. He is very operatic in many ways.
Will Eisner's femme fatales could be quite interesting and layered, especially Sand Saref, who inspired Elektra. P'Gell was a little more straightforward; but, always fun and always more playful than evil.
Dr Sivana and Black Adam have had their moments. Sivana, especially early on, when his origin was revealed, was actually a bit sympathetic, though, mostly, he was a cackling baddie. Black Adam was more nuanced at DC than Fawcett, as they dwelt more on how he was seduced by power, rather than just throw that out as to him being evil.
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Post by String on Apr 7, 2018 10:50:50 GMT -5
Dr Sivana and Black Adam have had their moments. Sivana, especially early on, when his origin was revealed, was actually a bit sympathetic, though, mostly, he was a cackling baddie. Black Adam was more nuanced at DC than Fawcett, as they dwelt more on how he was seduced by power, rather than just throw that out as to him being evil. Geoff Johns wrote one of the most compelling villain arcs ever for me with Black Adam. Tying his origins to ancient Egypt with Nabu and Hawkman, gave him a more solid foundation within the DCU. Later, after associating with the JSA, his controversial takeover of his homeland country of Khandaq, wanting to secure that which he had lost from so long ago and how the JSA responded to that. Then in 52, his attempts to build his own family only to see it eventually torn down and destroyed(in part due to his own actions elsewhere). His resultant grief and rage was unfathomable. Johns gave Adam more human motivations beyond merely being 'Cap's evil twin'. Adam saw the family that Billy had around him, the joy it gave unto him and Adam wanted the same. Billy and the others were naturally suspicious but eventually supported his efforts. The loss of his family generates more empathy and sympathy for him and his reactions than mere 'evil for evil' sakes. Some truly great character work over a number of years from Johns with one of my favorite villains. X-Men Unlimited #2 is probably my favorite Magneto story. Written by Fabian Nicieza with art by Jan Durrsema, it tells of a gov't agent seeking to kill Magneto partially for revenge for the death of his brother that he feels Magneto caused. But in tracking his foe, the agent learns of the iron will and determination that Erik has for achieving his perceived goals, that a lesser man, in light of similar failures, would have given up by now. He gains new respect for his enemy for his passion and strength though in the end, that perception did little to help the agent. One of the better character insights that I've read of Magneto. Plus, Bunn has been writing a very compelling Magneto of late, having been afforded the opportunity to guide Erik from his first ever solo series from a few years back to his appearances with various teams in more recent X-books. I would put Bunn's efforts with Magneto on par with what Johns achieved with Black Adam.
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Post by Phil Maurice on Apr 7, 2018 19:32:32 GMT -5
I was not very familiar with Daredevil prior to watching Season 1 of his Netflix series, and I found Kingpin's relationship with Vanessa, by far, to be the most interesting part of the plot. Credit goes to Vincent D'Onofrio for his nuanced portrayal of Wilson Fisk, but the underlying comic book story works as well. Families help to humanize villains, giving them credible motives for doing horrible things, while at the same time giving them a weakness that can bring then down either within or without. Kingpin's wife Vanessa sometimes was just a bystander to his evil plots: Sometimes was the source of family drama through challenges to his criminal ambitions: And sometimes was a pawn manipulated by both villainous and heroic foes to get the powerful crime lord to move in one direction or another: That's a really nice primer for people just coming to the character. I was there for ASM 197 as well as the return of the Kingpin during the Miller run, which is a Master's Class in rehabilitating a tired, cliched character and positioning him as a modern, major threat. Miller Daredevil is good comics and essential for a healthy reading diet.
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Post by chadwilliam on Apr 7, 2018 22:48:59 GMT -5
Luthor, in the hands of Elliot Maggin was very nuanced, especially in his two Superman novels. Maggin really got inside his head and showed him to be more than a "Mwa-ha-ha" villain, like in Challenge of the Superfriends. The guy sleeps in a sarcophagus, on Snoopy sheets! He worships Einstein, Clark Kent was his best friend, in Smallville, and he uses a string of identities to create and hide various scientific deivces and inventions. He travels the world as a crusading doctor, finding miracle cures for diseases, while also staging theft of scientific documents. Maggin also wrote a more rounded supporting cast, especially Lois and Steve Lombard, the sportscaster who attempts to bully Clark. Although I really should re-read Maggin's novels I do recall a few details which have stuck with me over the years about Luthor's three-dimesional personality in his works. The reason he's shown little interest in discovering Superman's identity over the years is because he simply assumed that like himself, Superman probably had about a dozen or so of them. One of Luthor's was as an avant garde artist who produced world famous abstract work of art. The reason behind such an unusual disguise was due to Luthor requiring a place to store his inventions during his stints in prison. Guess what the abstract pieces of art really were? Maggin also had Luthor run into Satan himself in one of these books (or an agent of his - C W Saturn, perhaps). Although this Luthor didn't hate Superman any less than his comic book counterpart, Maggin established the parameters which surrounded this contempt. In his dealings with Saturn, Luthor took steps to ensure that whatever else happened to Superman during their upcoming battle, the Man of Steel's soul would not wind up in the hands of Satan. Luthor despised Superman yes, but that hatred was well enough defined that he realized that an eternity of torture in the pits of Hell exceeded what Superman deserved. I thought this added a level of nobility to the character that would have made Edmond Hamilton proud.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Apr 8, 2018 3:32:16 GMT -5
I keep meaning to re-read read Maggin's Superman novels, as I haven't read them since they were first published (when I was all of about 12-13 years old). I don't remember too much about them, but what does stick in my memory is the really good characterization of Luthor.
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Post by sunofdarkchild on Apr 8, 2018 9:04:59 GMT -5
My one big gripe with Grant Morrison is how he tends to take complex villains and turn them into mustache twirling Nazis and Bond villains. What he did with Magneto was easily the worst part of his X-Men run, though whoever decided to undo Magneto's reform and make him a villain again in the late 80s/early 90s also really messed up. Ra's al Ghul was brought up here, and if anything Talia was even more complicated, being torn between her love for her father and Batman, while also being torn between their respective ideals. Morrison screwed that up royally and I doubt her character will ever recover from his assassination of her.
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Post by Cheswick on Apr 8, 2018 10:14:01 GMT -5
My one big gripe with Grant Morrison is how he tends to take complex villains and turn them into mustache twirling Nazis and Bond villains. What he did with Magneto was easily the worst part of his X-Men run, though whoever decided to undo Magneto's reform and make him a villain again in the late 80s/early 90s also really messed up. Ra's al Ghul was brought up here, and if anything Talia was even more complicated, being torn between her love for her father and Batman, while also being torn between their respective ideals. Morrison screwed that up royally and I doubt her character will ever recover from his assassination of her. This is a common complaint about Morrison, but it seems that people either forget or ignore that he was writing Magneto and Talia very similarly to how they had been portrayed shortly before his work with them ("Eve of Destruction" and "Death and the Maidens" respectively). He could have gone with the (preferred by many) "anti-hero" or "sympathetic" route with either character, but that would have gone against then-current continuity.
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Post by rberman on Apr 8, 2018 13:57:05 GMT -5
My one big gripe with Grant Morrison is how he tends to take complex villains and turn them into mustache twirling Nazis and Bond villains. What he did with Magneto was easily the worst part of his X-Men run, though whoever decided to undo Magneto's reform and make him a villain again in the late 80s/early 90s also really messed up. Ra's al Ghul was brought up here, and if anything Talia was even more complicated, being torn between her love for her father and Batman, while also being torn between their respective ideals. Morrison screwed that up royally and I doubt her character will ever recover from his assassination of her. I loved the first 3/4 of the Morrison run but totally agree that he botched Magneto, and not just the Xorn thing.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Apr 8, 2018 15:39:17 GMT -5
My one big gripe with Grant Morrison is how he tends to take complex villains and turn them into mustache twirling Nazis and Bond villains. What he did with Magneto was easily the worst part of his X-Men run, though whoever decided to undo Magneto's reform and make him a villain again in the late 80s/early 90s also really messed up. Ra's al Ghul was brought up here, and if anything Talia was even more complicated, being torn between her love for her father and Batman, while also being torn between their respective ideals. Morrison screwed that up royally and I doubt her character will ever recover from his assassination of her. Oh boy. I really loved Grant Morrison's Magneto... He was writing about how people's symbology and the stories/myths that built up around them are more potent than the actual person. But I am against nuanced villains in superhero comics in general. Superhero books aren't really designed for deep characterization - COMICS can be, but X-Men is not Love and Rockets or Nana - and if you give a villain to much nuance they stop being villains, which is a problem if you're clinging to the simplistic "good guy"/"bad guy" dichotomy... which virtually all continuity based superhero books are. So I think that Morrison style symbolism and metaphor are a better approach. Also, well, Magneto was really into attempted mass murder for a lot of years. Wasn't THAT out of character.
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