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Post by berkley on Apr 17, 2018 21:51:11 GMT -5
I'm generally not interested in contemporary superhero comics, so perhaps the question isn't directed at people like me. Whatever general interest I have in old superhero comics is largely nostalgia-based, I suppose. There are several specific exceptions that I think are worthy of interest because of their own merits, beyond genre considerations.
(edit:) I see my answer is almost exactly the same as Cei-U's except I don't have the professional aspect.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 17, 2018 21:57:32 GMT -5
Oh, cool. I am really glad that exists.. I like superheroes and I don't think they should be a boy's club. But, again, that's not what I'm asking here. I specifically posted on the Classic Comics section of the Classic Comics board to get opinions about classic comics. A lot of the stuff here - not Moebius or Watchmen or Y: The Last Man or Ravens and Rainbows, and not a lot of early Golden age comics - but a lot of the comics discussed here are designed for and marketed to children. I admit that I did not preface my simple question with a 30,000 word essay on the way that superhero media consumption changed along generational lines. Soooo... uh.... my bad? I guess? I did say "median" instead of "median cross-referenced against population change as a whole," in order to save time and not to get too bogged down in math, and I did half-expect someone to call me out on that. THIS particular line of conversational progression has me flummoxed, however. Why are we still reading stuff designed for and marketed to children when there are other options? Can y'all just work with me here? Please? That makes it sound like you're not looking for opinions, but just seeing who agrees with you. I agree 100% with MRP... the superhero comics being produced by Marvel and DC right now are NOT targeted at kids. If they were, they'd all look Superhero High (or be manga style), since that's what kids that read actual comics like. I've tried on multiple occasions to be my kids to read superhero comics, and they have no interest. They love the cartoons, and my oldest watches the movies with me, but no interest in comics.. it's just not a style that appeals to most in the current generation. Even Supergirl matching up with the show they like didn't really do it. They sure do like Superhero High, though. Instead, they're in a similar style, with similar characters as they've been using since the 60s... they're targeting those same people that have been buying since then, and, to a lesser extent, their kids. I alos reject your premise that superheroes in general are just a power fantasy, in that you could to some extent say that about any conflict driven narrative. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2018 22:07:31 GMT -5
But, again, that's not what I'm asking here. I specifically posted on the Classic Comics section of the Classic Comics board to get opinions about classic comics. A lot of the stuff here - not Moebius or Watchmen or Y: The Last Man or Ravens and Rainbows, and not a lot of early Golden age comics - but a lot of the comics discussed here are designed for and marketed to children. I admit that I did not preface my simple question with a 30,000 word essay on the way that superhero media consumption changed along generational lines. Soooo... uh.... my bad? I guess? I did say "median" instead of "median cross-referenced against population change as a whole," in order to save time and not to get too bogged down in math, and I did half-expect someone to call me out on that. THIS particular line of conversational progression has me flummoxed, however. Why are we still reading stuff designed for and marketed to children when there are other options? Can y'all just work with me here? Please? But as early as the 1960s Stan Lee was saying Marvel books were not designed for children but for older audiences (college age) and DC followed suit later in the 70s. Once creators came in who grew up on the stuff they began telling super-hero stories for people who grew up on super-hero comics, not super-hero stories aimed at readers who were ther age when they read super-hero comics. I don't think super-hero comics have been aimed at kids in decades, they are aimed for people who grew up reading super-hero comics, hence nostalgia and habit are why many people still read the material, it's not aimed at kids, it's aimed at people like them who have been reading comics since they were kids. You seem stuck on the idea that super-hero comics are targeted at kids, and I don't think that has been true for at least 30 years, more like 40, so there are generations of kids who are now adults who didn't have comics targeted to them while kids. That;s why it's refreshing to see super-hero material targeted at kids now, because it hasn't been the case for a long time. Why do I still read super-hero comics-because of the creators on them that I like who are working in the super-hero format or who are doing interesting things with the characters or the medium and the way they tell stories. I read super-hero comics because there are more job opportunities for creators working in comics to work on super-heroes than other genres and I am more interested in what those creators do than what costume and power set the characters in the story have. I read a lot of non-super-hero stuff looking for the same things too. If there were more opportunities for creators outside the super-hero genre (and there is more and more every year now) and there was no creators I was interested in working on super-heroes I probably wouldn't read much super-hero stuff anymore. I look for interesting stories executed with craft and characters I can invest/root for in whatever conflict they face (all story is about some kind of conflict whether internal or external). If that's in super-hero material being produced now, I read that. If it's elsewhere, I read that. But you're asking why adults today still read super-hero i.e. "kids" comics, and I don't think super-hero comics have targeted kids since the early Bronze Age. They've targeted super-hero fans for the last 40 years, so super-hero fans still read them. -M |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Apr 17, 2018 22:12:08 GMT -5
Oh, cool. I am really glad that exists.. I like superheroes and I don't think they should be a boy's club. But, again, that's not what I'm asking here. I specifically posted on the Classic Comics section of the Classic Comics board to get opinions about classic comics. A lot of the stuff here - not Moebius or Watchmen or Y: The Last Man or Ravens and Rainbows, and not a lot of early Golden age comics - but a lot of the comics discussed here are designed for and marketed to children. I admit that I did not preface my simple question with a 30,000 word essay on the way that superhero media consumption changed along generational lines. Soooo... uh.... my bad? I guess? I did say "median" instead of "median cross-referenced against population change as a whole," in order to save time and not to get too bogged down in math, and I did half-expect someone to call me out on that. THIS particular line of conversational progression has me flummoxed, however. Why are we still reading stuff designed for and marketed to children when there are other options? Can y'all just work with me here? Please? That makes it sound like you're not looking for opinions, but just seeing who agrees with you. I agree 100% with MRP... the superhero comics being produced by Marvel and DC right now are NOT targeted at kids. If they were, they'd all look Superhero High (or be manga style), since that's what kids that read actual comics like. I've tried on multiple occasions to be my kids to read superhero comics, and they have no interest. They love the cartoons, and my oldest watches the movies with me, but no interest in comics.. it's just not a style that appeals to most in the current generation. Even Supergirl matching up with the show they like didn't really do it. They sure do like Superhero High, though. Instead, they're in a similar style, with similar characters as they've been using since the 60s... they're targeting those same people that have been buying since then, and, to a lesser extent, their kids. I alos reject your premise that superheroes in general are just a power fantasy, in that you could to some extent say that about any conflict driven narrative. I haven't given a full answer but there is a .00000000000001% chance that anyone agrees with my approach to superhero comics. I agree that, except for Scooby Doo Team-Up (which I buy every month) and a few others, current superhero comics are not aimed at kids. ALso the majority of superhero media consumed by everyone now-a-days is not comics. Side-note: My cousin's kids will read Pokemon manga, and they WILL read my comics but are drawn to '60s superhero independents like Jack Frost and Fatman: The Human Flying Saucer. Go figure. Yeah, I do think all genre fiction targeted at males has an element of power fantasy, and I am honestly glad to see more Superhero High style power fantasies aimed at girls. I think the power fantasy aspect is, on average, more prominent in superheroes than detective fiction or even westerns. You are not just the best gunfighter in town you are stronger than everyone around you, even if they will never know! |
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Post by Chris on Apr 18, 2018 0:56:45 GMT -5
Mainstream is important. I'm a strong believer in comics as an artform, I'm amazed by the quality, emotional depth, experimentation and adult complexity of the last 20 years of the graphic novel boom... But Marvel and DC superhero stuff. Why does this appeal to you when (A) the median age of hardcore superhero fans is 9 and (B) corporate produced in-continuity superhero comics really don't produce much "great" work compared to other media - visual arts or movies or literature or music or even TV - er... TV in the last ten years especially. I don't even bother with current comics. I'll glance at one or two here and there and keep on walking. Older comics, however, I like for a variety of reasons. Nostalgia is one. Some I like because the stories are entertaining and/or challenging, or sometimes just for the art. Swan and Anderson's Superman work is a strong contender here. A lot of those early 70s stories (which I was too young to read at the time, therefore eliminating the nostalgia aspect) weren't very good but just rocked the art. I'm drawn to superheroes (especially of the classic variety, not Deadpool/Spawn) because they're explicitly moral. There are a lot of options for escapist entertainment, but I like superheroes because they are, thematically, are about doing the right thing. I like the idea of a universe with an underlying moral logic, and I'm interested in the questions of moral philosophy that superheroes can ask. "What does it mean to do the right thing." This is another strong reason. The Cary Bates/Julius Schwartz era of Superman was a rock-solid mainstay of Doing The Right Thing. And Curt Swan's Superman just looked like the most noble person ever. As I got older, I even liked books like Suicide Squad for the morality - yes, I know we're talking about a book where nearly every character was, uh, less than a saint (and that was on the best of days), but the stories clearly considered the morality of the characters' actions. The crazy inventiveness and balls-out, no fear, check-THIS-out style of writing of the series didn't hurt, either. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Apr 18, 2018 1:39:36 GMT -5
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Suicide Squad worked for me because it was still about morality and doing the right thing, even if the characters often made bad choices. And there was always SOMEONE acting heroically at any given time, even if it was just for that one story (or just for one scene!)
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Post by brutalis on Apr 18, 2018 8:06:20 GMT -5
Just like youthful me of the past, the old man me of today wants and needs escapism from the harsh truth and reality of the world. I wish to keep that piece of my soul, heart and mind alive with excitement, fun and exploration of anything and everything that is escapism and entertaining. Books, Movies, Television, Music, Art and such invigorates and reminds me to remain hopeful and thankful for each breath had and yet to come...
Plus I am a stubborn old fart of a curmudgeon who refuses to completely grow up and give up my silly yet fun and pleasurable habit. Especially when so many so called adults aren't worth a ding dong dang!!! I am and will always be a Toys and Comics R' Us Kid even if/when they have all gone away!
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Apr 18, 2018 8:26:29 GMT -5
The same reason I like Guinness over some craft beer, or a chain restaurant instead of a mom & pop. Guinness hasn't been brewing for over 300 years for no reason. McDonald's/Wendy's/DQ, etc hasn't been around for 50 or whatever years selling their fare. Consistency. You more or less know what you're going to get.
Not to say that I won't try a craft beer (though recently I've been batting bad on them) or mom & pop restaurant.
However, that said, what craft beers and mom & pop restaurants can do is keep Guinness and McDonald's up to task in providing the product they did from the start. Mainstream is important because it is the backbone on which, in comics, independents can start and thrive. Remember when Image or DH was "indy"? I wouldn't call them that now. They may not be producing standard superhero fare like Marvel and DC, but these are the top 4 publishers in terms of volume? (Someone else more knowledgeable could say otherwise.)
It's a symbiotic relationship, where both are important to each other. Would Watchmen even exist without superhero comics?
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Post by The Cheat on Apr 18, 2018 14:37:16 GMT -5
Marvel & DC? Almost entirely nostalgia. They make perfect pre-bed reading. Nice comforting nostalgia without the need to devote much, if any, brain power to understand.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Apr 18, 2018 16:22:33 GMT -5
This might be a little psychologically unhealthy...
But I've got some collector's impulse too. I don't care about condition, but making full sets/runs triggers a little hunter/gatherer based dopamine rush.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Apr 18, 2018 16:42:40 GMT -5
She's probably into Dc Super Hero High/DC Super=hero Girls. Bumblebee is a major figure in that line...  Oh, cool. I am really glad that exists.. I like superheroes and I don't think they should be a boy's club. But, again, that's not what I'm asking here. I specifically posted on the Classic Comics section of the Classic Comics board to get opinions about classic comics. A lot of the stuff here - not Moebius or Watchmen or Y: The Last Man or Ravens and Rainbows, and not a lot of early Golden age comics - but a lot of the comics discussed here are designed for and marketed to children. I admit that I did not preface my simple question with a 30,000 word essay on the way that superhero media consumption changed along generational lines. Soooo... uh.... my bad? I guess? I did say "median" instead of "median cross-referenced against population change as a whole," in order to save time and not to get too bogged down in math, and I did half-expect someone to call me out on that. THIS particular line of conversational progression has me flummoxed, however. Why are we still reading stuff designed for and marketed to children when there are other options? Can y'all just work with me here? Please? Except you didn't say that. Which is why I had problems with your premises. Because at this point, superhero comics have been aimed at and marketed (to the extent they are marketed) at adults and teens for far longer than they were aimed at 9 year olds. That said...to the extent I read comics aimed at 9 year olds it's for nostalgia. But that's damn rare. At this point I find late Golden Age and Silver Age comics almost unreadable. There are exceptions, but they are few and far between. Any interest I have in them is either nostalgic or looking at comics as part of a wider picture. |
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Post by rberman on Apr 18, 2018 16:47:50 GMT -5
Nostalgia of course plays a role for me, as it likely does for everybody on this forum. I also like revisiting them with a critical eye. When I was a kid, they were just adventure stories. But now I ask what they say about the creators and the society in which they lived. How have our norms changed? How have our hopes and fears changed? They are artifacts just as much as a buried Etruscan ashtray is. They're a window into the past.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 17:09:14 GMT -5
Just like youthful me of the past, the old man me of today wants and needs escapism from the harsh truth and reality of the world. I wish to keep that piece of my soul, heart and mind alive with excitement, fun and exploration of anything and everything that is escapism and entertaining. Books, Movies, Television, Music, Art and such invigorates and reminds me to remain hopeful and thankful for each breath had and yet to come... Plus I am a stubborn old fart of a curmudgeon who refuses to completely grow up and give up my silly yet fun and pleasurable habit. Especially when so many so called adults aren't worth a ding dong dang!!! I am and will always be a Toys and Comics R' Us Kid even if/when they have all gone away! I feel the same way like you do here.  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 14:31:04 GMT -5
It all comes down the emotional response I get when I see Superman flying.
I can enjoy a well written story, but I'm always looking for that emotional connection that takes me away to another place and time.
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Post by codystarbuck on Apr 19, 2018 16:16:40 GMT -5
I haven't read many recent comics and that has been, mostly, true for the last decade. I have always read "comics;" not any particular genre over another. I also enjoy heroic adventure and that is the literature I have read most, prose and comic. As a result, I have read a ton of superhero comics. However, I also read a ton of heroic military comics, heroic cowboy comics, heroic pulp adventurer comics, heroic sci-fi and fantasy comics, etc, etc. I also enjoy a good comedy, so I read a lot of Archie and Harvey and Mad/Cracked and comic satire, like Howard the Duck, Cerebus, Bone, Lethargic Lad, the Tick, etc, etc. It was really only in college that I started to explore comics beyond just heroic or comedic; then again, that is when that type of material really started to appear (in larger numbers). Still, I didn't read my first Love and Rockets until it was in the late 40s, in the issue numbering.
I mostly stopped reading superhero material by the mid-90s, due to a lack of quality stories or just a sameness to the better stories. The Image-factor that took over superhero comics, coupled with the "grim & gritty" fad wore me out. The hero comics I stuck with tended to have more of a sense of humor or were more mature in how they handled the subject (like Astro City or Starman). After Starman was put to bed, about the only superhero comics I continued to read were Astro City and the odd mini-series, usually when it was a fun idea (like Batman 66 or the Young Allies mini at Marvel, or The Marvels Project). Even attempts at more mature comics, like Supreme Power and The Twelve kind of fell a bit flat with me. Both start well and then come to a halt, due to JMS' commitments; but, SP was kind of just spinning its wheels world building and not progressing the story much and I kind of felt the Twelve was doing the same thing.
The stuff I have enjoyed most, in recent years, has been books like Ministry of Space or some of the Dynamite pulp comics or things like that, where it is a really interesting alternate history or throwback to classic adventure, with more modern dialogue and more rounded characterization. Sometimes its just cool, retro fun, like Jack Staff or Atomic Robo.
In the last decade, I was reading more material from Cinebook, where there was a wider array of genres available, with some espionage adventure, some real sci-fi (not just space opera shoot-'em up), some humor, fantasy, pirate tales, and some really fun kid comics (Billy & Buddy and Melisande).
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