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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 7, 2018 15:01:48 GMT -5
I'm slightly surprised but can't say which work I would've otherwise expected to come in at # 1. Yeah, I liked the GL/GA back in high school, and like Slam am fairly liberal, but it's almost unreadable now
For what he (hondobrode) wrote ... makes sense and right now and I've just read the complete book and sad to say this -- that this book is not an enjoyable read for me now. Sorry Watchman fans ... I just don't care for it now.I don't want to speak for Hondo, but I'm pretty sure he was saying that the Adams/O'Neil GL/GA was unreadable, not Watchmen. And I agree with him. |
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2018 15:44:06 GMT -5
I would put this Saga in my top 30 because Moore and Gibbons treated us something different and unique at the time its came out and had many changes in this series that keeps you on your edge.I'm moderately-conservative and right now -- I have to agree with hondobrode here because it is very unreadable now to the extent of it.
For what he (hondobrode) wrote ... makes sense and right now and I've just read the complete book and sad to say this -- that this book is not an enjoyable read for me now. Sorry Watchman fans ... I just don't care for it now. I don't want to speak for Hondo, but I'm pretty sure he was saying that the Adams/O'Neil GL/GA was unreadable, not Watchmen. And I agree with him. Okay, I got it and you made it clear to me. Thanks. |
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Post by Paste Pot Paul on May 10, 2018 3:43:21 GMT -5
Ugh. Anyone who knows me at all knows that, if I were dead, I'd be rolling in my grave right now. I like Watchmen, I respect Watchmen, but I feel it is VERY VERY overrated. Thus, knowing that my 1pt honorable mention put it over the line to grab the #1 spot utterly kills me. YES, the tallies for the #1 and #2 spot were that close. I strongly believe that the reason Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns, and Killing Joke are pretty much the three most revered graphic novels in all of comicdom has more to do with when they were published than anything else. Comic shops and the direct market were first coming into their own in the mid 1980s, and it's the first time we started seeing industry hype targeted at adults. Whereas we know how to filter this out as white noise these days, fans of the time didn't and thus believed these were the most important works of all time. Some still do. I'm very glad Killing Joke didn't make this list, surprised Dark Knight Returns didn't rank in the lower portion, and utterly ashamed that Watchmen made #1, and that I helped to make it happen. Great work. Belonged in the Top 30. Hmmmm, so this is the virgin double post caught in the wild before it got away...before that idiot deleted anything...or spouted any of his mindless dribble trying to impress us all with his witticisms, and astound with insights. Fool. You suck PPP |
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Post by Paste Pot Paul on May 10, 2018 4:00:00 GMT -5
I strongly believe that the reason Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns, and Killing Joke are pretty much the three most revered graphic novels in all of comicdom has more to do with when they were published than anything else. Comic shops and the direct market were first coming into their own in the mid 1980s, and it's the first time we started seeing industry hype targeted at adults. Whereas we know how to filter this out as white noise these days, fans of the time didn't and thus believed these were the most important works of all time. Some still do. Whereas I think that as a destination that skews older rather than younger, we who lived and bought through the time these came out make a higher percentage of voters. We may well have voted this way because there was so much utter shite around, so much so that Frank Miller became a legend, and an outspoken foul tempered Pom became a guru(Alan Moore for those not getting the put-down). Compared to 99% of what I bought for 10 years those 3 titles WERE worth reading and talking about, the first 2 especially being of a noticeably higher quality than Secret Wars, GI Joe, and Captain America, or decades of peurile drivel from DC. Sure there was the occasional bright spot...legion, phoenix, daredevil, manhunter, Kirby but most was actual meh. Cerebus is an almost, but the really boring bits, and Sim's...interesting philosophy remove it from true stardom. I also think the finite length of the stories helps too, not overly drawn out, or part of a huge ongoing juggernaut. |
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Post by String on May 19, 2018 15:25:23 GMT -5
I have zero problem with this being #1.
Mainly because from my POV, Watchmen is one of the very few, if not only, comics that gets serious recognition outside of the comics industry. By recognition, I mean mentions as being serious literature or great novels or some such, the breadth and quality of the work itself transcends the very medium it exists within to reach new levels and heights of popularity.
For example, my only copy of a Watchmen trade is a second edition printing released around 1987. I did not get it from a comic shop or even a comic retailer, no, I got my copy from my mother's Book-of-the-Month Club. There it was, in their listings, right alongside Clarke, Asimov, Heinlein, and King, the only comic that I recall ever being offered through them at that time. I still find that incredible and validating.
Besides all that, it is a remarkable dissection of superheroes along with amazing art that, combined with the narrative, pushed the boundaries of what this medium could (and should) be capable of achieving.
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Post by mrbrklyn on Jun 21, 2019 23:59:53 GMT -5
#1 Watchmenby Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons originally published in: Watchmen #1-12 (1986-1987) Nominated by: rberman , Slam_Bradley , hondobrode , Paste Pot Paul , Crimebuster , shaxper , @mrp , Arthur Gordon Scratch , and coke & comics rberman says: "Good grief, what can I say about Watchmen that hasn’t already been expounded at book length by others? Well, there’s this. In another thread, on this forum, we were having a discussion about how the original Secret Wars offered a lot of super-fights that were accessible to new readers, but ultimately didn’t make much difference in the Marvel Universe. Crisis on Infinite Earths, on the other hand, aspired to re-write the whole DC continuity, but it pays tribute to every hero of comics past in a way that couldn’t really be appreciated by newbies. Neither series really shines in the character development department. Was anyone wishing they could see more adventures of Lyla the Harbinger afterwards? Lady Quark? Me neither. I just always think this is the most overated book of all time. |
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Post by mrbrklyn on Jun 22, 2019 0:07:23 GMT -5
If it makes you feel any better: This story was nominated in the top ten by nine different people, which blows away every other entry on the list. #2 Claremont's X-Men: 5 votes #3 Sakai's Usagi Yojimbo: 6 votes #4 Gaiman's Sandman: 6 votes #5 Sims' Cerebus: 4 votes #6: Smith's Bone: 5 votes #7: Levitz' LSH Great Darkness: 4 votes #8: Moore's V for Vendetta: 6 votes #9: Cooke's DC The New Frontier: 6 votes #10: Lee/Kirby's FF: Galactus: 5 votes Even speaking as the person who voted Watchmen #1 and Dark Phoenix #2, I would not have been sad or surprised to see those two reversed in the overall rankings; they are both great in their own ways, and both also set unwelcome precedents. I can't personally vouch for Usagi Yojimbo's quality since I haven't read it yet, though the enthusiasm this forum has for it has inspired me to pick up the first volume of its omnibus collection. Everything else in our top ten is revered by comics fans, so I'd say that even with our small sample size, our poll did a good job at identifying highly worthy series. Sometimes it's hard to tease out "historically significant story" from "excellent story," and if someone wanted to argue that Watchmen was more important for its historical significance than for being an engrossing work of art, I might agree, even though I ranked it #1, vaulting it over Sakai and Claremont. Really, Watchmen over the Sandman? So much for popular vote.. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jun 22, 2019 1:55:49 GMT -5
If it makes you feel any better: This story was nominated in the top ten by nine different people, which blows away every other entry on the list. #2 Claremont's X-Men: 5 votes #3 Sakai's Usagi Yojimbo: 6 votes #4 Gaiman's Sandman: 6 votes #5 Sims' Cerebus: 4 votes #6: Smith's Bone: 5 votes #7: Levitz' LSH Great Darkness: 4 votes #8: Moore's V for Vendetta: 6 votes #9: Cooke's DC The New Frontier: 6 votes #10: Lee/Kirby's FF: Galactus: 5 votes Even speaking as the person who voted Watchmen #1 and Dark Phoenix #2, I would not have been sad or surprised to see those two reversed in the overall rankings; they are both great in their own ways, and both also set unwelcome precedents. I can't personally vouch for Usagi Yojimbo's quality since I haven't read it yet, though the enthusiasm this forum has for it has inspired me to pick up the first volume of its omnibus collection. Everything else in our top ten is revered by comics fans, so I'd say that even with our small sample size, our poll did a good job at identifying highly worthy series. Sometimes it's hard to tease out "historically significant story" from "excellent story," and if someone wanted to argue that Watchmen was more important for its historical significance than for being an engrossing work of art, I might agree, even though I ranked it #1, vaulting it over Sakai and Claremont. Really, Watchmen over the Sandman? So much for popular vote.. I'm more a Sandman guy myself, but Gaiman started out flat-out trying to be Alan Moore and I'm sure Moore is still Gaiman's # 1 comic influence. Also, I am finally read to vote! 1) Tales of the Beanworld 2) Deitch's Waldo Cycle 3) Human Diastrophism/Blood of Palomar 4) King City or Blue Monday or Theo Ellsworth's Capacity or Yotsuba! or the Reptisaurus birth/mating/kids cycle or... Actually voting is hard. Never mind. |
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Post by rberman on Jun 22, 2019 7:37:17 GMT -5
If it makes you feel any better: This story was nominated in the top ten by nine different people, which blows away every other entry on the list. #2 Claremont's X-Men: 5 votes #3 Sakai's Usagi Yojimbo: 6 votes #4 Gaiman's Sandman: 6 votes #5 Sims' Cerebus: 4 votes #6: Smith's Bone: 5 votes #7: Levitz' LSH Great Darkness: 4 votes #8: Moore's V for Vendetta: 6 votes #9: Cooke's DC The New Frontier: 6 votes #10: Lee/Kirby's FF: Galactus: 5 votes Even speaking as the person who voted Watchmen #1 and Dark Phoenix #2, I would not have been sad or surprised to see those two reversed in the overall rankings; they are both great in their own ways, and both also set unwelcome precedents. I can't personally vouch for Usagi Yojimbo's quality since I haven't read it yet, though the enthusiasm this forum has for it has inspired me to pick up the first volume of its omnibus collection. Everything else in our top ten is revered by comics fans, so I'd say that even with our small sample size, our poll did a good job at identifying highly worthy series. Sometimes it's hard to tease out "historically significant story" from "excellent story," and if someone wanted to argue that Watchmen was more important for its historical significance than for being an engrossing work of art, I might agree, even though I ranked it #1, vaulting it over Sakai and Claremont. Really, Watchmen over the Sandman? So much for popular vote.. I can only vote for those series which I have read. |
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Post by mrbrklyn on Jun 22, 2019 13:05:56 GMT -5
Really, Watchmen over the Sandman? So much for popular vote.. I can only vote for those series which I have read. You never read the Sandman's 50 issues? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2019 13:12:31 GMT -5
I can only vote for those series which I have read. You never read the Sandman's 50 issues? Which 50 of the 75 issues run are you referring to? -M |
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Post by mrbrklyn on Jun 22, 2019 13:20:43 GMT -5
Really, Watchmen over the Sandman? So much for popular vote.. I'm more a Sandman guy myself, but Gaiman started out flat-out trying to be Alan Moore and I'm sure Moore is still Gaiman's # 1 comic influence. I don't mean to be rude, that that is wrong on both counts. Gaiman's work was never like Alan Moore. Honestly, Alan Moore isn't in the same class as Gaiman. If you read the history of this and listened to Karen Burger, her career was jumpstarted by Alan Moores Swapthing. Gaiman, you understand that the imputus for his works literary authors... completely “Behind every Chesterton sentence there was someone painting with words, and it seemed to me that at the end of any particularly good sentence or any perfectly-put paradox, you could hear the author, somewhere behind the scenes, giggling with delight..” www.neilgaiman.com/FAQs/Influences |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jun 22, 2019 14:11:04 GMT -5
Two random quotes from a Q & A and an interview with someone who is not Neil Gaiman... somehow.... prove that actual truth is not true? I appreciate your use of Sandman-esque dream logic, but remember that some dreams have teeth. Reality is... safer.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 22, 2019 16:50:11 GMT -5
Gaiman has been very forthright about going to Moore and talking to him as he was starting out about how to write comic scripts. He’s also stated numerous times that it was Moore’s work, particularly Swamp Thing that brought him back to comics after a significant hiatus.
But sure. Let’s ignore what the man himself has said in pretty much every interview.
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Post by mrbrklyn on Jun 22, 2019 18:06:17 GMT -5
Gaiman has been very forthright about going to Moore and talking to him as he was starting out about how to write comic scripts. He’s also stated numerous times that it was Moore’s work, particularly Swamp Thing that brought him back to comics after a significant hiatus. But sure. Let’s ignore what the man himself has said in pretty much every interview. This is why I don't post to most forums. The Sandman was nothing like anything Moore ever produced, and it was influenced from classical literary works, and his deep study of folklore... He actually wrote this INSIDE the letter columns and the fan media at the time and inside the books. His intertwining with Moore was because largely because Karen Berger recruited them and they worked together for DC, and Moore was the ground breaker into the American Market. The influence for the Sandman came from a prototype idea Gaiman pitched to Berger after Black Orchard and was turned down. After that, they handed Berger Sandman, and Berger handed Sandman to Neil who then shoe horned hos previous idea into the Sandman title. The group of Brittish talent that came together as a class inclued, Borland, Moore, Gibson (who sucks btw), Gaiman and I am probably leaving someone out. Now, this is how it was. As for your comment, I did quote Gaiman himself. - straight from his own website. As for the quality, Moore is a second rate author compared to Gaiman in terms of story depth, character development, plot development, staging, language usage, and literary knowledge. Gaiman is a literary encyclopedia, and his work reflects this. Gaiman's Sandman has stories within stories, within stories, that unfolds like rose pedals. The character Death herself is a greater literary invention than anything Moore ever could produce... including John Constantine who is frankly a retreaded character, although well done. The Sandman is probably the greatest Comic Work of the 20th century, on any objective standard. It has zero stamp from Moore. Moore had zero influence on the creation of the Dreaming, the Endless, Seasons of Mists, Prelude or any of the story lines. He had zero influence on Destruction, Dream, Destiny, Delirium, the Fluries, or the interweaving of Marvin, and Cain and Able or any part of the Sandman. The Sandman worked on a Metadata level of comic story telling that sweeps through a greater part of comic and folklore, to produce a completely new mythology by breaking through the third wall, so to speak, in a way that DC is kind of trying to do with the Watchmen now, or as Planetary tried to do with some success, or as was in the overall storyline of Mister Miracle in this last run. But Sandman not only did this first, but it did this in an integrated and well planned way from the very start. Gaiman created a context that could draw from any fictional work, or real events, and place them in the context of his new mythology. Nothing has ever been produced like it, and it is likely nothing ever will... Criticism of it here is frankly laughable. Long after all these forums are dead, long after the internet is dead, long after the Comics medium is dead, long after Gaiman himself is buried, The Sandman will continue to be read and studied. I know this. Everyone in the publishing industry knows this. And I am not even a fan of the Sandman.  |
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