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Post by dbutler69 on Dec 30, 2018 19:14:45 GMT -5
Thoughts: I'm still ticked that Clea, a powerful sorcerer in her own right, is constantly left behind or taken out easily. Clea was practically a non-entity in this series, criminally underused. That always baffled me. |
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Post by badwolf on Dec 30, 2018 20:53:24 GMT -5
Thoughts: I'm still ticked that Clea, a powerful sorcerer in her own right, is constantly left behind or taken out easily. Clea was practically a non-entity in this series, criminally underused. That always baffled me. That always bugged me too. They should have just written her out completely, rather than just have her hang around doing nothing. |
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Post by chaykinstevens on Dec 31, 2018 6:33:29 GMT -5
Defenders #96 Sinnott is credited with finishes, rather than inks, which usually means that they are doing more than just inking the pencils. Perhaps that is part of why Perlin's art seems too sedate, in that he is loosely sketching it, with Sinnott adding the extras. I don't think Sinnott is holding it back; but, he isn't working over a Kirby. I think Sinnott had health problems around this time, which meant he usually needed assistance in completing issues. Al Milgrom inked parts of #94 & 95, and Sal Trapani inked some of #96, including the page above. I only liked Perlin's art when Sinnott or the Palmeresque Kim DeMulder was on hand to pretty it up, but Sinnott's style was too clean and bright to be a good fit for the supernatural. |
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Post by badwolf on Dec 31, 2018 10:35:19 GMT -5
Yeah, there was some creepy stuff in Gillis' run that Kim Demulder gave a good atmosphere. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 2, 2019 19:02:40 GMT -5
Defenders #97 Nice cover from Ed Hannigan and Al Milgrom Creative Team: the usual bunch of DeMatteis/Perlin/Sinnott/Albers/Roussos and Milgrom. I would assume this falls into the timeframe when there were continuity bonuses for producing so many issues of a series, in succession, which helped keep creative teams stable (if not always vital). Synopsis: Everyone has been standing around for 5 hours, while doc has been in a trance, trying to trace the S0x-Fingered Hand (does that mean it has two middle fingers and can flip double birds?) and Daimon Hellstrom is acting like a jerk (fitting). Doc finally wakes up but says the exercise was pointless; but, wants to probe Patsy's mind to find out why she has been acting weird. he thinks Avarrish is still partially in her brain. Patsy flips out, which proves Doc's point and she consents, which recaps the last few issues, then she releases a mind bolt which stuns Doc. She then says it feels like Avarrish is finally gone and she gets all (seemingly innocently) snuggly with the Son of Satan. Well, they do say ladies like "bad boys," and, you can't get much badder than the son of Satan, who rejects hs own father (that's bad on both sides!). Kyle was wasted, as he was called but not used in battle. Meanwhile, Devil-Slayer shows up because he had nothing better to do, at that moment.  Looks rather Ditko there. He recounts issue #60, where they last met and then catches them up on his life since. His wife Cory and he have split and she ran off to Israel, where some guy on a kibbutz claims to be the true Hebrew messiah. Doc detects some mystical shenanigans there and gets Daimon to stop acting like a prick and tune his trident into the mystical energies. So, the Defenders head for Israel, where everything is always peaceful and quiet. Meanwhile, Man-Thing runs into a whole in reality.  Then, we shift to Israel, where the team turns up in civies, with Doc adopting the safari look, Daimon goes for casual wear, Kyle adopts some bermuda shorts, Patsy and Val get short-shorts, and Isaac goes for the Hawaiian shirt look. man, I wish Gerber were here (though DeMatteis is a pretty good substitute)! They find David Kessler, the supposed messiah, making like John the Baptist at an oasis (Mid-dunk at the oasis.......) Daimon continues to act like a jerk and label's the followers as sheep, while kyle faints and deMatteis reminds us that there is a time difference between Israel and New York (something a lot of writers and Hollywood types forget) and it is daytime, where Kyle is crippled. Devil-Slayer decides to use this to test Kessler, who is doing the whole faith healing con. DS runs into Cory, who tells us of David's past, from 60s protest to helping inner city school kids, to seeing an angel in the desert's of Israel, to now. Kyle gets dipped in the water and emerges able to walk, which sets Doc to pondering, while Daimon flips out. never knew the Son of Satan was such a dogmatic Christian, as he seems to be the one who most thinks David is false. Arguing ensues and David says truth must be revealed and Isaac and daimon are then transformed back into Gargoyle and the Son of Satan, complete with trident.  David calls upon an army of archangels to attack and it's on! The defenders are in their swinging swords against fiery angelic swords and winged gargoyles against winged seraphim. david is the one who calls a halt, yet the angels keep fighting. Doc reveals that he is a pawn of the Six-Fingered Hand and reveals the "angels" as rather cartoony demons...  David is not happy and we soon see he is inhabited by Hyppokri (subtle), a demon in service to the SFH. Cory tries to stop him and gets swatted away, prompting Devil-Slayer to attack and get knocked down. David regains temporary control and throws himself on top of DS's sword. Hyppokri is cast out, David dies, and Cory decides to stay with the cult, even though their messiah is dead. Thoughts: Well, nothing controversial there! Whooboy; this title was already begging for trouble with the Son of Satan and a demonic Gargoyle on the team; not to mention a Hellcat. Now, DeMatteis taps into Jewish theology and presents another messiah, the one that is still foretold to come, after Jesus is declared not to be the true one (within their teachings). So, he then takes potshots at what appears to be typical evangelical faith healers (with more hippy hair than Robert Tilton or Benny Hinn) and reveals him to be the pawn of the Six-Fingered Hand and then the vessel controlled by a demon with the oh so appropriate name of Hyppokri. Gerber probably would have gone even further withit, yet I'm kind of amazed Shooter was okay with this. Cosmic beings who think they are gods were one thing; but, Shooter had Marvel publishing comics about Mother Teresa and Pope John Paul II. It wasn't quite Christian Spire Comics; but, it wasn't Eclipse, either (not that they were atheistic; but, they definitely were a bit more in the secular realm). It's a bit uneven; but, an interesting piece from DeMatteis. Perlin & Sinnott are fine, until we get the rather underwhelming demons. They look a little too CC Beck Captain Marvel, to me, which doesn't fit the tone. here. DeMatteis was one of the few writers who openly explored Jewish themes in comics, aside from Will Eisner (and later Mark Waid, when Ben Grimm gets bar mitzvahed), with things like Greenberg, the Vampire and this. Cory seems to be merely a plot device and Devil-Slayer is merely a plot "taxi driver," getting the defenders from new York to Israel. He will be continuing with the team, further cementing the supernatural focus that DeMatteis is giving the series. Me, I prefer more of the goofy sci-fi/supercriminal stuff, like the Headmen and Scorpio; but, DeMatteis is doing a decent job with the mystical stuff; better than Hannigan or DAK, when they tried it (DAK stuck more to standard superhero stuff). Daimon is a royal pain in the tuchus here, which seems to be the personality DeMatteis is going for, which fits the idea that he is the Son of Satan. You aren't likely to be a Pollyana, with that heritage. he also seems to be continuing to push he and Patsy together. They make a Hell of a Couple!
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Post by badwolf on Jan 2, 2019 21:53:44 GMT -5
I had forgotten how ridiculous those demons looked, and Man-Thing also looks kind of clunky compared to others' renditions.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 3, 2019 12:02:21 GMT -5
Defenders #98 Great cover from Marshall Rogers!. Love the hypnotic-looking logo alteration. Marvel started doing more of that sort of thing in this era. Also note, sitting on top of the D in Defenders is Michigan J Frog, from the Chuck Jones cartoon "One Froggy Evening." Creative Team: Jim Novak takes over on letters; rest are the usual bunch. Synopsis: Wong and Clea are meditating when a telemarketer interrupts. Clea conveniently remains in a meditative state, so Wong is stuck with answering the phone. Turns out it is Captain America and the defenders conveniently arrive back home in time to take the call. Cap wantas the Defenders to take over their investigation of the disappearance of Citrusville, FL, leaving behind a crater, shaped like a hand with 6 fingers. Citrusville also sits near a swamp that just happens to have the Nexus of All Realities, as seen in Steve Gerber's Man-Thing (the comic, not his................um, nevermind....). When Doc gets off the phone, Kyle tells them he is quitting, since he is useless in the daytime. So, DeMatteis gets rid of another one. The team is pretty much all mystical now. They head out and we cut to New Jersey, where some kids are digging around in the ruins of Patsy Walker's house and find her shadowcloak. One kid tries it on and says some magic words and literally disappears, while some kind of lizard-looking demon comes out and the kids wet themselves and run away. Back in Florida, the Defenders arrive and Patsy starts acting like Erica Kane and scratches Daimon's face, causing him to lose control and reveal his more demonic self, before regaining control. This is getting weird and kinky! They meet up with Man-Thing; but, something seems different about him...  Man-Thing attacks with eye beams and the magc types fire back with magic bolts and get swatted. The sword-slingers try hacking him and get swatted. Doc goes astral and enters man-Thing's mind, where he runs up against the demon controlling MT. It's getting the better of Doc when he is saved by Ted Sallis, the mind of the man that was transformed into Man-Thing, while experimenting to duplicate the Super Soldier Formula.  We get his backstory and then he chases the demon off. Doc thanks him and Ted asks to return to oblivion and the threat from man-Thing ends. The Defenders then head into the Nexus and cross dimensions, where they see a floating six-fingered hand. They follow it and find the six demons, Citrusville and their former teammates...  Thoughts: DeMatteis treads in other Gerber territory. Gerber was locked in a fight with Marvel, over Howard the Duck, which was extremely ugly. I'm sure DeMatteis just wanted to work with Gerber's ideas; but, I have to wonder if Shooter didn't consider this an FU to Gerber? I would like to think he wasn't that petty; but, many who worked at Marvel have suggested that he was. Maybe its just a coincidence. Perlin & Sinnott do a pretty good job with the mystical and metaphorical fight, though their version of the other side of the Nexus is a bit bland. It's not Frank brunner or Val Mayerik. Hellcat gets decidedly kinky with Daimon, first coming on to him then scratching his face, causing his demonic side to emerge, then laughs about it, until she breaks down and cries. Doc says he showed no more signs of Avarrish, before, which then suggests he's a mystical quack or Patsy has been hiding an interest in BDSM. If she unveils a new leather costume, I think we can lean towards the latter. For now, I think Doc was wrong. At the end, we finally meet the six demons of the Hand and, quite frankly, they aren't ver impressive. Somehow, I think that is deliberate.
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Post by badwolf on Jan 3, 2019 13:20:25 GMT -5
I always wondered if that frog was supposed to be a particular one. I could never place it.
Nighthawk may have left the team, but he isn't gone from deMatteis' run.
Not sure what you mean by an FU to Gerber. Surely any characters created in Marvel comics are free to be used by future writers?
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 3, 2019 14:50:20 GMT -5
Defenders #99 Al Milgrom cover; it's.........................nice............................... Really hard to follow Michael Golden and Marshall Rogers; but, not quite as epic as last issue's cover, or even as dynamic as Ed Hannigan's previous one. It's..............nice. Kind of old school staging, without really making anything pop out at you. Still; the Final Conflict! Wonder where they got that idea? Creative Team: Jean Simek (some relation of Artie, no doubt) does the letters; everyone else is the same. Synopsis: After a one page summary of what has gone before (and a panel where it almost looks like the floating literal six-fingered hand is flipping the bird {it's the index finger}) we get back to the proceedings, with the leader of the Six, Maya, orating. Clea, Hulk, Sub-Mariner and Silver Surfer are all prisoners in energy bubbles. Once again, Clea was the weak link who was tricked by demons (all that time around Dormammu and she can't recognize evil manipulations) and she called in the reserves, only for everyone to be taken down by the Hand. Avarrish whines about Gargoyle being there and Val kicks him in the diaper-clad butt! Seriously; Val plants her foot right up his candy ass, as The Rock would say (if ya smelllllllll......................). he tries to go for her and she says "Bring it!" Don't F with Val! (or Barda!) Maya intercedes and stares down Avarrish and Av blinks and apologizes. Something ain't halafal here! It might not even be kosher! meanwhile, Kyle richmond is being attended to by a nurse, named Luann, and then Patsy turns up with her shadowcloak and carries Kyle off to help. Wait, what? She was trapped with the others. Why doesn't she have her mask on either? and the cloak was in the ruins of her home last issue, where the kid found it and disappeared and the lizard demon emerged from it.......WTF?? Well, to look into it we go to New Jersey, where one of the other kids is dragging his mom to where the other one disappeared and they find a whole lot of monsters at the Walker residence, with no chaperones! But, back in the Nexus, the Defenders are taken on a tour of Citrusville, where everyone looks like Vic Sage...  The gang talks to one of the Charlie X lookalikes and he reacts like a primal animal. The demons are lording it and Daimon has had enough and cuts a promo, then unleashes hellfire, which does nothing. Faster than you can say "Faith and begorrah!" we have a donnybrook. The Defenders are fighting demons and Questions...  The Defenders face killing the townspeople, to save the world, when the captured reserves show up with Gargoyle and clean house. The Hand all start shrinking, then a tiny demon kicks Surfer in the shin! Isaac explains that he held back and figured out his energy bolts siphon a small part of someone's soul, so he thought he could siphon off the energy bubbles, and it worked! Then, Maya cackles and reveals how Isaac received that inspiration and where the Six-Fingered Hand's power was coming from, as he transforms into...  Meanwhile, Patsy turns up with Kyle and meets..... Back in the Nexus, Mephisto bottles up the heroes and explains that it's all Dr Strange's fault. When Eternity was split, in issue #92, barriers between dimensions were weakened. Doc's spells to follow the Hand weakened them further. Now, things are so weak we get...  Thoughts: Well, we have a lot of Ditko homaging (I'm betting moreso than Star Trek) and then a lot of demonic double-crossing! We also end with Mephisto and Satan! Once again, Clea is useless. This is a woman who was a prisoner in Dormammu's domain and helped Dr Strange defeat him and escape; and, yet, a lesser demon takes her down, without much of a fuss. not only that; but, it is able to contain the Surfer's power. Obviously, they wanted the whole gang together for issue 100; but, Hulk, Namor and Surfer are pretty much cameos. if you are going to bring them in, use them. Otherwise, stick to your current group. I'm not sure I wholly blame DeMatteis, as this is where an editor should have been involved; and, that's Milgrom and Shooter. Quite frankly, I think we are seeing an illustration of the flaw in Shooter's approaches to storytelling, which became immutable law at Marvel. It sets such a rigid formula that you can't improvise easily when your story doesn't and shouldn't conform to that structure. This tale really needed something bigger and you definitely miss the influence of a Roy Thomas or a Steve Englehart or Steve Gerber. These guys played with formulas and twisted them and broke them, when the story needed that. Shooter is so.....Ditko, in his thinking. A is A; this is the only way to tell a story. Except, it isn't working here. We don't really feel we built to this moment, no matter how much exposition we get from Mephisto. It's all kind of disjointed and less-than-epic. Maybe issue 100 will pull out the win.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 3, 2019 15:06:28 GMT -5
I always wondered if that frog was supposed to be a particular one. I could never place it. Nighthawk may have left the team, but he isn't gone from deMatteis' run. Not sure what you mean by an FU to Gerber. Surely any characters created in Marvel comics are free to be used by future writers? Man-Thing was Marvel's character, legally; but, Gerber's spiritually. Gerber made it what it was; same as Howard the Duck (along with his artistic collaborators). Man-Thing is used in a rather cliched manner here, and it is rather like when they tried to end Omega in this series; it isn't up to Gerber's standards. To me, there is an element of a message to Gerber that "We own this stuff, we can mess with your babies all we want. Creators are a dime a dozen!" Gerber, meanwhile, would be formulating his response, with Destroyer Duck, where he and Jack Kirby sent the message that Godcorp may own the bodies of the characters; but, the creators gave them their soul and they are just husks without them. Now, obviously, this is my interpretation of the intent here. As I say, it may just be coincidental; but, seeing as Gerber was engaged in a lawsuit at the time and that Man-Thing is pretty helpless here (though DeMatteis does a nice job with the soul of Ted Sallis) the timing does seem a little suspect. I don't think DeMatteis had any intent there; but, it's possible that he was encouraged in that direction. Maybe it's all in my head; but, this was a nasty period at Marvel. A lot of long-standing talent started departing and much of it involved conflict with Shooter (and Marvel as a corporate entity, with Shooter as the face of it). Read the Comics Journal from this time period and you will see some venom being aimed at Shooter by the departed figures, including Roy Thomas and Gene Colan, though Colan had enough tact to say he left for personal reasons, though that it involved a disagreement with Shooter (over storytelling philosophies). Now, if you are unaware of any of the behind-the-scenes turmoil, then I'm sure this reads rather differently. Knowing what was going on, it isn't hard to see metaphors where they may or may not have been intended. If it is, it's more subtle than blowing up Pittsburgh, after Shooter was fired (in the New Universe). |
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Post by badwolf on Jan 3, 2019 15:59:57 GMT -5
I knew of Gerber's troubles with Marvel (though certainly not at the time this book came out) but not the chronology of it relating to the books being published. And I also know Howard was basically Gerber's voice but Man-Thing... well for one thing he doesn't have a voice, or a personality... I guess I need to finally read that Man-Thing omnibus I've had on my shelf for years. I guess I just don't see how much it differs from other uses of the character from this period. Man-Thing also appeared in MTIO, MTU, and X-Men around this time.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 3, 2019 16:40:02 GMT -5
Defenders #100 Another Al Milgrom cover! See, 100 issues! Lot of characters standing around a big "100." See how exciting our story is? No? What, you mean what is happening inside? Well, it's the double-sized 100th issue! It will be worth money! 100 is a milestone. These things are never a let down! Buy it, fanboy! Or is that just me? Creative Team: Chaing and Leferman on letters; same ol', same ol' for the rest. Synopsis: We are on Hell On Earth (which appears to be Time Square, or some similar part of NYC). We are confronted by Mephisto, Satan, Thog (from Man-Thing) and Satannish; as well as Patsy, in her demonic Hellcat form. George Roussos had to go out and buy some more red. Doc is moaning about Fing up and surfer tells him that self-loathing is pointless (take that Stan, with your mopy Surfer stories!) and daimon is the first to get all steamed (he has a low boiling point, on the best of days). Satan reveals that Hellcat is his daughter (remarking of the death of Satanna, in MTU #81). he says he took human form to wed Dorothy Parker (well, she did sleep around a bit; but Satan? Did the rest of the Algonquin Round Table know?) and conceived Patsy, which is why she took so easily to superherodom, despite having been a flighty teenager before. Val tries to reach Patsy and gets told off and cries. Kyle tries the same and gets tossed like a ragdoll.. Daimon tells his father that he's not the boss of him and Satan pegs his feelings of love for Hellcat (ewwwwwwwwww.....who's writing this, George Lucas?) Satan offers Dr Strange a chance to stop Hell from gaining dominion, with a contest (it's always a contest) and we are off to the plit team trope. however, Daimon is forced to remain at his father's side. Dr Strange, Hulk and Namor are up first, as they turn up at Bald Mountain, near Rutland, VT, where they fought Dormammu, in Marvel Feature #2 (truly awesome issue!).  They are forced to fight the hooded disciples of Dormammu again, by Satannish and it turns out these guys are demons, not 3rd rate Satanists (are there really first rate Satanists? They all seem like posers in search of attention. Anyway...) they whoop their hides, when Hulk and namor see Xemnu and Yandroth, the man-machine (also from the Marvel Feature issues and early defenders issues). They get their clocks cleaned and Satannish dumps all four down a hole and tells doc he can only save 2. Doc uses the Eye to see that Xemnu and Yandroth are fakes and rescues the heroes (of course). The mountain explodes and we cut to... an interlude, with Daimon and Pops, in a Dance Hall in Hell (where I presume the piano player only does Neil Sedaka songs and Feelings). Satan is trying to woo his son to his side and Hellcat goes an icky step further and Daimon reacts a lot more realistically than Luke Skywalker did. Next up are Gargoyle, Nighthawk and Devil-Slayer. They get dumped into a programming session at the History Channel, as elements from every war in history play out around them. Isaac is in a World War 1 helmet, since he fought in it, while Devil-Slayer is in Vietnam era gear. Hawkeye was 4F (heart murmur) and has the notice sent from the Draft Board. Kyle is attacked by the cast of DC's war books, who talk about Kyle being a george W and sitting out the war, while the poor boys fought, as JMD makes a statement about the fairness of the draft in Vietnam (which was now a thing of the past, as the Draft ended in 1975, though no one had been inducted after 1972. However, selective Service Registration was revived under the Carter Administration, after the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan). Ironically it is Vietnam Vet Devil-Slayer who disperses the ghouls. He gives Kyle a pep talk and they turn and see Thog leading the climax of Time Bandits...   Devil-Slayer is faced with the innocent children of war and loses his fighting spirit. isaac is confronted by his dead best friend, who was killed in WW1. Kyle finally twigs the problem: survivor's guilt and appeals to reason, to all, to end the suffering and horror of war. they stop fighting and Thog goes nuclear, literally! Interlude 2 finds the Satan family on a merrygoround and Daimon is told he has had his fun; but, must chose to stand with Dad or be destroyed. Surfer, Val and Clea face...............nothing.  They are in a void where nothing exists, except them and Mephisto and Clea reveals their torment: they are all outsiders on Earth. Mephisto tempts each with their on world to Be in: Clea a mystic queen, with Dr Strange kneeling at her feet; Val leading a Valkyrie army in endless battle, Surfer reunited with Shalla-Bal. Surfer shakes it off first and attacks. The ladies snap out and lend their powers and they defeat Mephisto and head for a doorway, which closes, dumping them into the endless void. And then we are back! Satan tells the Defenders that they haven't won and hell lives on earth in 3 hours. Daimon calls him a lying poopy head and he replies that they haven't found THE Truth. Daimon calls shenanigans and he and pop face off, with no interference. Satan then sicks sis onto Daimon and he refuses to kill her and admits that he loved Patsy. Satan will have to get his hands dirty. They fight....  and the defenders break their vow of non-interference, as Doc feeds energy to unleash Daimon's Darkforce. Satan still gets the upper hand and is about to fork Daimon, when....  . Satan backs off and restores Patsy and says maybe he was lying about Patsy or maybe he was lying to himself; but, Daimon ends up staying with him and they leave. The Defenders are left ona normal New York City street, where a cop tells them to stop holding up traffic. Thoughts: DeMatteis has some interesting stuff here as out teams face different problems: the past, guilt, otherness and Daimon is forced to face off with his father and his demonic nature. It should be really cool; but, the visuals aren't up to the story and some of it is too cliched. It also skirts the issue of the True Satan in the Marvel Universe. Satan is shown to be more powerful than Thog, mephisto and Satannish; but, what about Dormammu? This could have been a chance to establish the ultimate evil dark lord; but, marvel wasn't going there. On the flip side, here we have all of the agents of Hell and yet we never get their opposites. Tony Isabella tried that in Ghost Rider and got his story changed, at last minute, by Jim Shooter, thereby giving Isabella a metaphor to use to criticize Marvel for the next couple of decades. Even the Angel (either one) is not an "angel." There is a Hell in the Marvel Universe; but, there doesn't seem to be a Heaven (and I don't count Asgard or Olympus or any of the other mythic realms). Why the one and not the opposite number? If we can have a Judeo-Christian Hell, why not their Heaven? We have Asgard and Hel and Niflheim. There is Olympus and Tartarus and the Underworld. But, no Heaven..... Well, anyway; the ending pulls this story out of a power dive; but, doesn't fully satisfy. DeMatteis is doing work in the tradition of Gerber and the defenders metaphoric past and pays tribute to some of that history. However, the ladies are given short shift, if you ask me. Clea is easily captured and does nothing. Val, after kicking a demon in the backside, can't do anything with her sword or appeal to reason. She's even made to cry. Patsy is a pawn and turned into a twisted Leia, before being restored, without ever settling if she is the daughter of Satan or merely Linda Blair. DeMatteis has nice ideas; but, I don't think he really executes them like his predecessors (Thomas, Starlin, Englehart, Gerber, etc..). It feels like he is trying to do what they did; but, not given the freedom to really pull it off. he certainly isn't given the visuals. Perlin and Sinnott have some fine moments; but, they just don't deliver the "horror." It just looks too clean and Silver Age, rather than the dark, brooding Bronze Age spectaculars that we had under Thomas' EIC reign (and furthered under Wein and Wolfman). Their eras may have been ones of chaos and reprint fillers; but, there was a real creative vitality, too. Kirby described anti-life as mindless, ordered slavery to one power. Is that what Marvel had become? No; not entirely; but, some pockets of the company, in this era, felt like it. On the whole, i still like what deMatteis has done to this point. He is trying to bring in the classic elements that were there with Gerber: humor, metaphor, the supernatural, characterization. Perlin (and Sinnott) is supplying fine art; but, the whole thing doesn't seem to totally gel. He is fine when they are in the "real world", yet seems to struggle with the fantastic. He tries; but, it lacks that spark that makes it come alive. De Matteis is interested in exploring the supernatural, as Dr Strange was the reason he wanted to do the series. Perlin seems more at home with stuff from DAK's run, or some of Ed Hannigan's. However, Perlin remains for quite a while; so, maybe it was just this story that proved daunting. We will have to see.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 3, 2019 16:44:23 GMT -5
I knew of Gerber's troubles with Marvel (though certainly not at the time this book came out) but not the chronology of it relating to the books being published. And I also know Howard was basically Gerber's voice but Man-Thing... well for one thing he doesn't have a voice, or a personality... I guess I need to finally read that Man-Thing omnibus I've had on my shelf for years. I guess I just don't see how much it differs from other uses of the character from this period. Man-Thing also appeared in MTIO, MTU, and X-Men around this time. Like I say, it is my interpretation. However, Man-Thing is pretty much just a battleground here, rather than an active character, compared to other stories. May be a coincidence and it may be my head looking for evidence to fit a theory, rather than rethinking the theory, in the face of conflicting evidence. It's a common problem with any observer. |
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Post by badwolf on Jan 3, 2019 22:24:31 GMT -5
I think this story arc suffers so much because of the art that I almost wish someone would "remake" it.
Imagine what it would have been like if it had been done by someone like Bernie Wrightson, or Mike Ploog! (I mean then.)
As for the lack of Heaven, I feel like those who would object don't much care how Satan & demons are portrayed, but that the opposite number is, er, a sacred cow. I think that no matter how they did it, no one would be happy. Can't blame them at all for not wanting to "go there."
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 4, 2019 0:02:49 GMT -5
I think this story arc suffers so much because of the art that I almost wish someone would "remake" it. Imagine what it would have been like if it had been done by someone like Bernie Wrightson, or Mike Ploog! (I mean then.) As for the lack of Heaven, I feel like those who would object don't much care how Satan & demons are portrayed, but that the opposite number is, er, a sacred cow. I think that no matter how they did it, no one would be happy. Can't blame them at all for not wanting to "go there." And yet, no one went into a tizzy when Neil Gaiman had angels from heaven, alongside Thor & Odin, Bast, Lords of Order & Chaos, and others, vying for the key to Hell; then, hand it over to them, since their master created hell (and Lucifer) in the first place. It was consistent with the theology. There are sorts of religious figures in the Marvel Universe, such as Roy Thomas' Adam Warlock-as-Jesus, or Tony Isabella's sabotaged storyline where Johnny Blaze is aided by what was supposed to be Jesus (or an agent of Heaven) I think the worry about a response was always greater than the likely response. As usual, I think kiry showed the way, with the New Gods, creating his own mythology and inhabiting it with inspirations from the past. the 4th World is filled with religious metaphor, both good and evil and with far more subtlety than most. yes, subtlety; from Jack Kirby! Jack hit you with so much it takes time for some of it to sink in. When it does, you see the brilliance. |
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